The way forward for LC2021

km79

Rosita wrote: »

Sorry, have you a source for this other than the Independent story?

Nope apart from the TUI coming out ahead of the story saying the exact same thing.
That they are open to LC return the week of Feb 22nd. They didn’t pluck that from the sky

Random sample

I’m fine with back to school that week... I’m not fine with offering a choice between exams and predicted grades.

I just offered my daughter a choice between her spelling test and me guessing how many she would get wrong and she picked the guessing.... leaving certs will do the same.

noplacehere

If we are coming back the 22nd can we please know now? I doubt I’m the only teacher who was about to get stuck into planning for remote learning. It’s different if we are in the room and a total waste of my time if I’m going to have to redo it all by next weekend 🀯

am_zarathustra

Choice is detrimental to everyones education! I'd be teaching two completely different cohorts in the same class with different assessment needs. Half and half makes sense but full PG are just not necessary

Treppen

Nyla Worried Son wrote: »

The fact TUI doesn't only represent second level is seen as a problem by many, and I understand and share that concern in many ways. However, it is reality that within the ETB there are many dual provision post primary and FE centres, so the teachers in these centres need representation for both sectors. The ASTI does not provide this - a strength in the main that they are focused on one sector - but no use to the many teachers working across sectors, even if they are teaching predominantly post primary. The ASTI would not accept members from my school because of this, despite the school being officially considered dual union by the department when the split occurred over one of the agreements.

Personally I see the ASTI as the better union, but I also find the constant snide comments towards TUI members a little hard to take, when ASTI are not willing to represent all teachers either. Teachers are advised by both unions to join the majority union where one dominates, and in many cases they still have no option re union, except none. I think that should be borne in mind when making sweeping vitriolic statements about the other union, it really serves nobody but DES to foster the division they crave.

Ya I do snipe at the TUI but that's always leadership. In the vast majority of cases we all did the same hdip,pde,pgde,pme,BEd and all went to the same riviting lectures in the same colleges. I think it was more by luck and circumstance that teachers ended up in certain schools ergo Union.

Conversely the TUI refuses to represent privately paid teachers. So in relation to the above quote the TUI aren't willing to represent all teachers also. Maybe that's changed.

am_zarathustra

noplacehere wrote: »

If we are coming back the 22nd can we please know now? I doubt I’m the only teacher who was about to get stuck into planning for remote learning. It’s different if we are in the room and a total waste of my time if I’m going to have to redo it all by next weekend ��

Between other classes online, childcare and travel a lot of schools will initially need block classes for 6th years of some form, this will require planning too. Also I'd be changing my whole tact if we are going CG or PG or whatever, people need time to work on schemes if they want any form of quality education to come out of this mess

Rosita

km79 wrote: »

Nope apart from the TUI coming out ahead of the story saying the exact same thing.
That they are open to LC return the week of Feb 22nd. They didn’t pluck that from the sky

Maybe they didn't pluck it from the sky. But then again maybe they did. It's the day after midterm, if you're going to pluck something from the sky it's a natural landmark for teachers to expect something might happen. Probably more natural than thinking in terms of 5th March which is the actual end of the current period of restrictions.

With respect, I think it's a straw in the wind rather than a sign that "it's almost certain".

km79

Rosita wrote: »

Maybe they didn't pluck it from the sky. But then again maybe they did. It's the day after midterm, if you're going to pluck something from the sky it's a natural landmark for teachers to expect something might happen. Probably more natural than thinking in terms of 5th March which is the actual end of the current period of restrictions.

With respect, I think it's a straw in the wind rather than a sign that "it's almost certain".

They made the statement midweek after the round of talks

km79

am_zarathustra wrote: »

Between other classes online, childcare and travel a lot of schools will initially need block classes for 6th years of some form, this will require planning too. Also I'd be changing my whole tact if we are going CG or PG or whatever, people need time to work on schemes if they want any form of quality education to come out of this mess

From the TUI guidance regarding those who teach special classes allow with timetable of mainstream classes
“ Where a teacher of a special class would normally as part of her/his timetable leave that class to deliver remote or online learning to students who are still learning at home, the school should facilitate that teacher in delivering that learning from the school premises or from home, where the timetable allows for travel.“

In other words teachers go in and teach whomever is physically in the building. Then if their timetable allows they can go home to remote teach the online groups . If they have them straight after they remote teach from them school building .
Childcare is dealt with further down . It basically says use all types of leave available if there are childcare issues .
Year groups will be staggering back over a few weeks . It’s not realistic to do a new TT every few days .

rainbowtrout

am_zarathustra wrote: »

Choice is detrimental to everyones education! I'd be teaching two completely different cohorts in the same class with different assessment needs. Half and half makes sense but full PG are just not necessary

Yes that’s crossed my mind many times in the last few weeks. If a student decides next week that they are going to go for a predicted grade, how do you engage them in class for the next 4 months?

I can think of many students who are unmotivated, or dislike a particular subject or who won’t be using a subject for points or who aren’t going to college who might opt for predicted grades as the easy way out.

Will there be people who are going for high points courses and doing all HL except for example Irish who opt for the predicted grade here so they effectively drop the subject so they can work on their other ones?

am_zarathustra

km79 wrote: »

From the TUI guidance regarding those who teach special classes allow with timetable of mainstream classes
“ Where a teacher of a special class would normally as part of her/his timetable leave that class to deliver remote or online learning to students who are still learning at home, the school should facilitate that teacher in delivering that learning from the school premises or from home, where the timetable allows for travel.“

In other words teachers go in and teach whomever is physically in the building. Then if their timetable allows they can go home to remote teach the online groups . If they have them straight after they remote teach from them school building .
Childcare is dealt with further down . It basically says use all types of leave available if there are childcare issues .
Year groups will be staggering back over a few weeks . It’s not realistic to do a new TT every few days .

Blocking classes for 6th years for two weeks would be doable, after that it would have to revert to the normal timetable. I can't see kids taking the risk of school on the 22nd for PE or religion etc and there is a big difference for someone organising childcare to try and do it for 40/1hour every day or two blocks of 2 hours twice a week. The quality of my teaching to other years would be severely effected if I had to teach my normal timetable to LCs. Internet is not as good as in my house and I have 5 pieces of equipment I use daily to teach my subject effectively. The other benefit of blocking is S and S, until half the school is back there will be no capacity for this. What is a teacher rings in sick? How does lunchtime supervision work? Proportional blocking without PE etc would also allow extra time for subjects with large practical components, they will be under pressure for sure.

am_zarathustra

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Yes that’s crossed my mind many times in the last few weeks. If a student decides next week that they are going to go for a predicted grade, how do you engage them in class for the next 4 months?

I can think of many students who are unmotivated, or dislike a particular subject or who won’t be using a subject for points or who aren’t going to college who might opt for predicted grades as the easy way out.

Will there be people who are going for high points courses and doing all HL except for example Irish who opt for the predicted grade here so they effectively drop the subject so they can work on their other ones?

This will be a massive problem in some schools. You could end up with 4/5 messers, taking predictive grades without understanding them and then disrupting classes. Also the amount of crying at teachers thats going to go on will be shocking. Thats before we even start with pressure from parents. Maybe if they have to sit the exams but can choose the CG but then why not just make it 50/50, motivation to get back to work and also an independent terminal exam. Why is this not the obvious solution?

deiseindublin

I thought I do said it was
1. Exams Or
2. CG Or
3. Both?

Devil will be in the detail tbh.

How long will CG only students be in school?
Will exam students have access to their teachers after CGs?
When will CG results come out?
When will exams be?
Will exam results be out for college entry 2021?

am_zarathustra

deiseindublin wrote: »

I thought I do said it was
1. Exams Or
2. CG Or
3. Both?

Devil will be in the detail tbh.

How long will CG only students be in school?
Will exam students have access to their teachers after CGs?
When will CG results come out?
When will exams be?
Will exam results be out for college entry 2021?

To be honest if we don't have an answers to some or all of the above this will cause chaos for students, parents and teachers.

Str8outtaWuhan

deiseindublin wrote: »

I thought I do said it was
1. Exams Or
2. CG Or
3. Both?

Devil will be in the detail tbh.

How long will CG only students be in school?
Will exam students have access to their teachers after CGs?
When will CG results come out?
When will exams be?
Will exam results be out for college entry 2021?

that looks like an absolute **** show, hopefully the high court cases will put CG/PG out of its misery

I pity any teacher having to deal with all those combinations in the one class

Bobtheman

I think predicted grades would not be issued until May. That much I would be certain of. Otherwise why would a kid bother sticking around? Party time etc.
Unless I'm corralled I'd inflate away. Grade wise.

Rosita

Predicted grades will have to be put through the slow process same as last year where the teacher's prediction is not necessarily the same grade they'll actually get. Given the time that takes I'm not sure Predicted Grades is compatible with a June exam. I'd say the government is looking at the exact same arrangement as last year with an exam for a handful of people later in the year.

Str8outtaWuhan

Rosita wrote: »

Predicted grades will have to be put through the slow process same as last year where the teacher's prediction is not necessarily the same grade they'll actually get. Given the time that takes I'm not sure Predicted Grades is compatible with a June exam. I'd say the government is looking at the exact same arrangement as last year with an exam for a handful of people later in the year.

barristers will have a field day if schools aren't subjected to school profiling.

ascophyllum

I can only imagine what will happen if you're doing an assessment in April say, and you return a test to a student with a grade of 40% or so.
Next day parents in, saying they wont accept that result, it's the teacher's fault etc. wasn't taught correctly, a hundred different excuses.

I had a student some years ago who need to improve their written work greatly but dismissed every bit of feedback I gave them, insisting their work was fine, mock exams corrected externally - wouldn't 'accept' that result either, claiming it wasn't marked correctly etc. I could do no more, of course they got a very low grade in the state exam, refused to listen to anyone. That's going to happen, a lot.

Wombatman

Rosita wrote: »

Predicted grades will have to be put through the slow process same as last year where the teacher's prediction is not necessarily the same grade they'll actually get. Given the time that takes I'm not sure Predicted Grades is compatible with a June exam. I'd say the government is looking at the exact same arrangement as last year with an exam for a handful of people later in the year.

June exams were referenced by the TUI representative on the radio yesterday. Unlike last year, the students who do the exams should be able to enter college in 2021, and not have to postpone for a year. Exams will have to be around June in order to mark and review, so that points are ready for CAO.

Wombatman

Are most schools going to crack ahead with mocks as soon as the LCs return?

Smacruairi

Wombatman wrote: »

Are most schools going to crack ahead with mocks as soon as the LCs return?

Schools don't even know when they're going to be back. Each school will do different things in the absence of any form of instruction. Can I ask you Wombat if you have an LC student in the family?

km79

It’s strange that none of this is being carried across the other news outlets ?

Str8outtaWuhan

km79 wrote: »

It’s strange that none of this is being carried across the other news outlets ?

Nothing on rte radio 1 this week program about it.

rainbowtrout

Rosita wrote: »

Predicted grades will have to be put through the slow process same as last year where the teacher's prediction is not necessarily the same grade they'll actually get. Given the time that takes I'm not sure Predicted Grades is compatible with a June exam. I'd say the government is looking at the exact same arrangement as last year with an exam for a handful of people later in the year.

Or offering the exams in June knowing the majority would probably opt for predicted grades

Wombatman

Smacruairi wrote: »

Schools don't even know when they're going to be back. Each school will do different things in the absence of any form of instruction. Can I ask you Wombat if you have an LC student in the family?

Yes. Why do you ask?

Rosita

Wombatman wrote: »

Are most schools going to crack ahead with mocks as soon as the LCs return?

I am familiar with plans for three schools including my own and all have ruled out mocks. Certainly in the case of my own school it was felt that they were underprepared anyway for such a full-scale exam and that mocks would consume a lot of time for limited value. Just not knowing when we will return was a significant element in the decision.

trihead

In case you were expecting a decision/details on Tuesday after the cabinet meeting.

https://www.thejournal.ie/leaving-cert-decision-5354121-Feb2021/

km79

trihead wrote: »

In case you were expecting a decision/details on Tuesday after the cabinet meeting.

https://www.thejournal.ie/leaving-cert-decision-5354121-Feb2021/

Which is completely at odds with what MM said yesterday

Rosita

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Or offering the exams in June knowing the majority would probably opt for predicted grades

Heard Brian Mooney on the radio today (incidentally he seems convinced that teachers have loads of data for Predicted Grades - must be one of those teachers who puts great store in the end-of-chapter exam, otherwise not sure where he's getting that from) and that's what he seemed to imply.

But given the time it took between starting the process last year (albeit the basic processes are in place at least) and results being available it'll be fair going to have results in time for students to make a properly informed decision about sitting an exam while trying to decide if they should or shouldn't prepare for an exam in April/May.