Where do we go from here?

Grizzly 45 · 08-02-2021 8:56pm

Apart with both of them being concerned with gun ownership...Or do you men fox hunting with horse&hound?

"Hunting" by itself can mean either around here.

Setting up a YT channel isn't the hardest either. If you have an acc , click on Creator academy in My Youtube dropdown box and there are a whole bunch of vids on setting up a channel.

Your trouble,I think will be filling it with relevant content here in Ireland if it is just wholly shooting sport related.

Feisar · 08-02-2021 9:16pm

I was referring to hunting with a gun, I should have stated that above. Yes target shooters and hunters are both concerned with gun ownership. And gun ownership is a lifestyle choice, I believe we have established this here. However I think it's fair to say that being anti bloodsport is an ideological choice. You could potentially have a lot of target shooters vehemently against hunting with a gun.
I'm probably talking about a very small group now that I think about it further, most of us came into shooting due to coming from a house with a gun, which back in the day pretty much meant hunting. I'm falling into the position of being a bit of a pedant so I'll not labour the point further.

jb88 · 09-02-2021 12:19pm

Cass wrote: »

First off, and i must stress, this is NOT a political thread nor debate. The Off Topic thread is the place for that.

This is an opinion and suggestion thread.

With the seemingly never-ending and increased "attacks" on all shooting sports, not just here at home, but globally are we on the loosing end of a very long battle or is there hope for the sport?

Between gun bans, mag bans, social media bans on free speech of hunting, the lead ban, and of course public opinion is the sport looking at a slow death of a thousand cuts?

If so what can we do to try stop it and even turn it around.

If not then what can be done to increase the population of the shooting community and finally shed ourselves of the "secrecy" our sport is sometimes forced to implement.

Too many fiefdoms and pleasing others in their respective sections of the sport, and too many ratholes for money to disappear down for those who are trusted for a short time and are actually using it to stab old enemies in the back.
You look at something being successful from a group point of view politically then look outside Ireland.
Then think of how to implement it with most of the dumb yokles in the shooting sports in Ireland and watch your faith in people ebb away.

Just go stick your hand in the fire, it will be less painful and time wasting.
Ive said it before lobby your local TD on an individual basis if you have a problem.
The rest, a pipe dream and a waste of time

jb88 · 09-02-2021 12:25pm

Feisar wrote: »

I was referring to hunting with a gun, I should have stated that above. Yes target shooters and hunters are both concerned with gun ownership. And gun ownership is a lifestyle choice, I believe we have established this here. However I think it's fair to say that being anti bloodsport is an ideological choice. You could potentially have a lot of target shooters vehemently against hunting with a gun.
I'm probably talking about a very small group now that I think about it further, most of us came into shooting due to coming from a house with a gun, which back in the day pretty much meant hunting. I'm falling into the position of being a bit of a pedant so I'll not labour the point further.

Most if not all of the target shooters I know are pro gun and anything to do with it, Regardless of if its used for hunting or not, and smart enough to know, with some exceptions that if you infringe on the rights of one group, how soon before it catches up with your group.

No idea where u got the idea in your head that Target shooters are "anti - bloodsport", if its currently legally in Ireland, it wont be a target shooter, threatening to ban it. They may not like it bit most are smart enough to not rock the boat, but there is always one right.

badaj0z · 09-02-2021 12:54pm

https://www.norma-ammunition.com/en-gb/products/dedicated-hunting/rimfire/norma-eco/norma-eco-speed-22?fbclid=IwAR3y_Pg9M6AJFbZH8gUDNX7BjMIfEXClYhcpfJ7eif2xLDocmaYRutZwUSQ

Feisar · 09-02-2021 1:07pm

jb88 wrote: »

Most if not all of the target shooters I know are pro gun and anything to do with it, Regardless of if its used for hunting or not, and smart enough to know, with some exceptions that if you infringe on the rights of one group, how soon before it catches up with your group.

No idea where u got the idea in your head that Target shooters are "anti - bloodsport", if its currently legally in Ireland, it wont be a target shooter, threatening to ban it. They may not like it bit most are smart enough to not rock the boat, but there is always one right.

I'm not saying target shooters are automatically any bloodsport. Just that gun ownership does not equal pro bloodsport.

Grizzly 45 · 09-02-2021 1:59pm

Lets put the words "blood sport" in the category of "weapons" terminology shall we?
It's an emotive term used by antis and is a blanket term to describe anything they disagree with. Hunting whether by H&H or shooting is a field sport.
Same as we should define hunting as either with horse and hound or gun.Would save a lot of confusion?

BattleCorp · 09-02-2021 2:05pm

badaj0z wrote: »

https://www.norma-ammunition.com/en-gb/products/dedicated-hunting/rimfire/norma-eco/norma-eco-speed-22?fbclid=IwAR3y_Pg9M6AJFbZH8gUDNX7BjMIfEXClYhcpfJ7eif2xLDocmaYRutZwUSQ

I wonder what it's like for price and accuracy.

It's a high velocity round and I find that they tend to be the most inaccurate of the .22lr rounds.

badaj0z · 09-02-2021 2:32pm

Agreed. I anticipate a low velocity version could follow. I expect that we will see more and more non lead bullets as the EU menace develops. Maybe some manufacturer will introduce plastic bullets with depleted Uranium cores, like the A10(Warthog) ammunition. That would get them excited.

BattleCorp · 09-02-2021 4:11pm

badaj0z wrote: »

Agreed. I anticipate a low velocity version could follow. I expect that we will see more and more non lead bullets as the EU menace develops. Maybe some manufacturer will introduce plastic bullets with depleted Uranium cores, like the A10(Warthog) ammunition. That would get them excited.

The funny thing is that many of the lead substitutes are bad for the environment too.

I wonder when we'll all have to rip the flashing off our houses or dig up all the lead water pipes? My guess is that because they aren't anything to do with guns, it'll never happen.

tudderone · 09-02-2021 5:22pm

BattleCorp wrote: »

The funny thing is that many of the lead substitutes are bad for the environment too.

I wonder when we'll all have to rip the flashing off our houses or dig up all the lead water pipes? My guess is that because they aren't anything to do with guns, it'll never happen.

Its nothing to do with the environment, its just a way at making life more difficult for gun-owners and shooters. How many billions of rounds of lead ammo were fired during the Napoleonic wars, the Balkan wars, The crimean wars, The first world war, the second world war ?

There is a rough estimate that 80-100 billion rounds were made during ww2 alone, the Americans made over 45 billion. The British its reckoned fired 6 million rounds a day during ww1, 8 billion rounds a year or something like that.

Munsterlad102 · 09-02-2021 7:48pm

tudderone wrote: »

Its nothing to do with the environment, its just a way at making life more difficult for gun-owners and shooters. How many billions of rounds of lead ammo were fired during the Napoleonic wars, the Balkan wars, The crimean wars, The first world war, the second world war ?

There is a rough estimate that 80-100 billion rounds were made during ww2 alone, the Americans made over 45 billion. The British its reckoned fired 6 million rounds a day during ww1, 8 billion rounds a year or something like that.

Yeah exactly, I read somewhere that the Americans used 50,000 rounds for every German casualty so how many billions of rounds does that make?

tudderone · 09-02-2021 7:57pm

Well from plastic ammo, you get plastic microbeads when it breaks down, which is reckoned to be the next big headache. Copper rounds ? Isn't copper poisonous to certain trees, or maybe all trees ?

Grizzly 45 · 10-02-2021 12:53am

BattleCorp wrote: »

The funny thing is that many of the lead substitutes are bad for the environment too.

I wonder when we'll all have to rip the flashing off our houses or dig up all the lead water pipes? My guess is that because they aren't anything to do with guns, it'll never happen.

Did notice that military,LE and "security forces" are of course exempt from this legislation? Maybe we should be asking WHY are they exempt from this??? I've yet to see an explanation on this one and it seems no one is asking either?
Is it to do with the fact their training grounds are absolute total and utter lead waste dumps around the EU...Or somthing else??

GooseB · 11-02-2021 5:45pm

Did notice that military,LE and "security forces" are of course exempt from this legislation?

I read that in the EU there are 1,400,000 tonnes of lead products made annually. Of that, 50,00 tonnes are for ammunition. Looked at another way, 1,350,000 tonnes of lead have nothing to do with shooting.

Of the 50,000 tonnes related to ammunition, 10,000 to 15,000 tonnes are for shooting sports. So 70% to 80% by mass of all lead based ammunition in the EU is accounted for by non sporting uses - in other words the military and probably a very small amount law enforcement and others. (Provided the source of the information is correct)

Source: https://www.all4shooters.com/en/shooting/law/Ban-of-lead-in-ammunition-the-position-of-ISSF/

alan0387 · 11-02-2021 7:08pm

Those are some interesting figures if correct. Shows quite clearly the negative bias against shooting within Europe as a whole.

garrettod · 12-02-2021 1:12am

Hi,

I agree with previous suggestions, about targeting politics.

While I'm not a massive fan of the NRA, you have to admire their ability to influence US politics. We could learn a few tricks from them, be it in terms of lobbying, or kicking a politicans ass, when needed.

There's a fundamental problem in Ireland, and that's our inability to cop on, and work togeather, for the common good. Instead, we look for the first opportunity to start squabbling, have a few arguements, then break away into small splinter groups, never to be seen again. Every time we start that nonsense, we literally shoot ourselves in the foot, and yet, we don't seem capable of overcoming the problem.

Just imagine the political influence that a combination of groups like the IFA, Hunters, Target Shooters, NARGC, Fishermen etc could exert, at an election. Those groups and others have so much in common, if they'd only agree a set of common objectives, and focus on them. They can still go and do their own thing, on other unrelated issues.

Putting aside the voting influence that a combined group of those and other interests could have, think about the commercial influence - be it the ability to fund raise, promote positive messages to the general public, invest in training and education for topics of interest, negotiate discounts from large corporates etc.

garrettod · 12-02-2021 1:27am

On a different note, why not take a look at how we do things, here on Boards?

For a start - why aren't the Hunters, and the Target Shooters, all working togeather, when there's a call for people to lobby their EU Ministers, or local TDs, on an issue, for example?

The are members who are only interested in target shooting, or hunting, so don't visit the other forums, and probably aren't even aware that someone is calling for support, from fellow shooters.

Could we mirror occasional messages across the forums, to ensure that more people see them - rather than just the Target Shooters, or Hunters ?

Could we consider putting a mailing list togeather, perhaps entrusting the Mods with our personal email addresses, so they could do a mailshot to everyone, when a topic needs to be highlighted, or there's a call to action?

Could we begin to form our own "club",
group or association - setting out some basic principals and just focusing on them?

There are things that everyone here could probably do for someone else - help a shooter job a hunting club, or invite a newbie to their target club, to show them around and maybe take them through a few of the basics, perhaps give someone a little specialist training, if you happen to be particularly good at a certain discipline etc etc.

tudderone · 12-02-2021 1:52am

You must be joking. Anytime anything is mooted, like the handgun ban years ago, there were other vested interests quite happy to see pistol shooters chucked under the bus if it meant they could save their own necks so to speak. Then we had SCOVI doing sneaky runs to anyone in government who would listen, with outrageous suggestions, so long as they could control things and make a few bob under the table.

Feisar · 12-02-2021 9:43am

garrettod wrote: »

Hi,

I agree with previous suggestions, about targeting politics.

While I'm not a massive fan of the NRA, you have to admire their ability to influence US politics. We could learn a few tricks from them, be it in terms of lobbying, or kicking a politicans ass, when needed.

There's a fundamental problem in Ireland, and that's our inability to cop on, and work togeather, for the common good. Instead, we look for the first opportunity to start squabbling, have a few arguements, then break away into small splinter groups, never to be seen again. Every time we start that nonsense, we literally shoot ourselves in the foot, and yet, we don't seem capable of overcoming the problem.

Just imagine the political influence that a combination of groups like the IFA, Hunters, Target Shooters, NARGC, Fishermen etc could exert, at an election. Those groups and others have so much in common, if they'd only agree a set of common objectives, and focus on them. They can still go and do their own thing, on other unrelated issues.

Putting aside the voting influence that a combined group of those and other interests could have, think about the commercial influence - be it the ability to fund raise, promote positive messages to the general public, invest in training and education for topics of interest, negotiate discounts from large corporates etc.

While I agree it'd be great it's too high a goal here. Yer talking about pulling us out from our tribal parish pump politics and turn us into single issue voters. Thankfully in ways, were aren't polarized like that here compared with the States. Plus how many people are more than just casual shooters? Like the amount of licences in the State get trotted out however how many of them are dying to get out for a shot at the moment be it fur, feather, clay or paper?

Edit - look at the uptake in Ireland on the survey on the lead ban for an example of interest.

Grizzly 45 · 12-02-2021 3:10pm

garrettod wrote: »

Hi,

I agree with previous suggestions, about targeting politics.

While I'm not a massive fan of the NRA, you have to admire their ability to influence US politics. We could learn a few tricks from them, be it in terms of lobbying, or kicking a politicans ass, when needed.

The NRA's secret is and is grudgingly admired in DC is its dedicated grassroots system of lobbying. Compared to the big lobby groups of pharma, oil, tobacco and the auto industry the NRA is in the penny-ante league in political donations.
IOW if there is a call to lobby some bill and senators.it happens, people ring, email and write and pitch up to lobby whomever.
Americans have a different idea to be engaged in issues than we have here,as can be witnessed in Virginia last year when literally people showed up from every state, some from the other side of the continent to protest Gov Blackface Northam's gun ban.
Not only that they have realised a long time ago, that you are a gun owner first, and that this is under continuous threat by various anti groups despite it being a fundamental right. You are a hunter, target shooter, whatever always second, third and all the way down the line.

We OTOH can't seem to realise this fact for some reason and continuously will throw another minority to the wolves in the hope they will be full by the time they reach our particular shooting sport.

You are asking for an impossibility here going by previous attempts here. Even when it would cost people literally nothing to do bar send a pre-printed email or add their signature to a petition
Here,if we called a protest in Dublin,and even laid on busses or free lifts to get some to go,the attitude would still be "Meh couldn't be arsed!":(
Either it is bred out of us,or we are just the laziest shower of people we just don't do protest or cohesion,or common cause here for some reason.

Just imagine the political influence that a combination of groups like the IFA, Hunters, Target Shooters, NARGC, Fishermen etc could exert, at an election. Those groups and others have so much in common, if they'd only agree a set of common objectives, and focus on them. They can still go and do their own thing, on other unrelated issues.

We had that,it was called the Sports Collation. Worked until money and egotism and king-making destroyed it

badaj0z · 12-02-2021 8:02pm

It still exists, there have been significant changes in people involved, and it is still the only body representing shooters which is recognised by the DOJ and Gardai. Maybe we should work with what we have?

Feisar · 12-02-2021 8:37pm

On operation transformation there one of the people doing it, her husband and son were shown going out after pheasants. It was just a quick clip but nicely done I thought.

alan0387 · 13-02-2021 5:44pm

I am currently listening to Vortex Optics podcast via Castbox app. Slowly making my way through various subjects from 10 minute talks on different calipers to hour long .22lr or x4 hour long episodes on elr.

Halfway through episode 125, from May 2020 entitled,
'Get the Lead out, Keep it in.... or a little bit of both'

Interesting conversation and mentions the use of the term Toxic Ammunition and why its misleading when surveying shooters in the states about Lead ammo.

As I said I have not finished this episode yet so I can't give a summary just yet!

https://castbox.fm/vb/267903902

smmember20 · 13-02-2021 5:57pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

garrettod wrote: »

Hi,

I agree with previous suggestions, about targeting politics.

The NRA's secret is and is grudgingly admired in DC is its dedicated grassroots system of lobbying. Compared to the big lobby groups of pharma, oil, tobacco and the auto industry the NRA is in the penny-ante league in political donations.
IOW if there is a call to lobby some bill and senators.it happens, people ring, email and write and pitch up to lobby whomever.
Americans have a different idea to be engaged in issues than we have here,as can be witnessed in Virginia last year when literally people showed up from every state, some from the other side of the continent to protest Gov Blackface Northam's gun ban.
Not only that they have realised a long time ago, that you are a gun owner first, and that this is under continuous threat by various anti groups despite it being a fundamental right. You are a hunter, target shooter, whatever always second, third and all the way down the line.

We OTOH can't seem to realise this fact for some reason and continuously will throw another minority to the wolves in the hope they will be full by the time they reach our particular shooting sport.

You are asking for an impossibility here going by previous attempts here. Even when it would cost people literally nothing to do bar send a pre-printed email or add their signature to a petition
Here,if we called a protest in Dublin,and even laid on busses or free lifts to get some to go,the attitude would still be "Meh couldn't be arsed!":(
Either it is bred out of us,or we are just the laziest shower of people we just don't do protest or cohesion,or common cause here for some reason.

We had that,it was called the Sports Collation. Worked until money and egotism and king-making destroyed it

I believe the sports coalition is still going strong, least we forget that the last achievment was to discuss/negotiate make representation on behalf of Target shooters to allow for the substitution of centrefire pistols, most folks had them from before 2008 and in 2020 probably could do with a change, the work done by the SC ensured that this could happen, how do I know I was one of the individuals who benefited from the change in attitude of AGS and I sucessfully substituted my pistol!
I take my hat off to them, something tangible achieved that benefits target shooters directly!!

solarwinds · 13-02-2021 6:58pm

smmember20 wrote: »

I believe the sports coalition is still going strong, least we forget that the last achievment was to discuss/negotiate make representation on behalf of Target shooters to allow for the substitution of centrefire pistols, most folks had them from before 2008 and in 2020 probably could do with a change, the work done by the SC ensured that this could happen, how do I know I was one of the individuals who benefited from the change in attitude of AGS and I sucessfully substituted my pistol!
I take my hat off to them, something tangible achieved that benefits target shooters directly!!

Sorry what, Yes I believe you can sub a C.f. pistol but come your renewal it has to be subbed back to your original C.f. pistol for the renewal to be processed. As otherwise it is a new licence with a different serial number. I fail to see how this is an advantage as you have to own 2 pistols only 1 of which you can licence.
The only thing that would have benefited shooters would be the subbing of licences without all the messing associated currently to do it.

alan0387 · 13-02-2021 8:10pm

My next post will be a draft of an email I am preparing to send to my local TD's and hopefully our MEP's regarding this lead ammo fiasco. Any input on changes to the email would be welcome and of course if anyone wants to copy/paste/modify for sending to your own TD's work away. This was written with my 3 year old on my lap interrupting me every 20 seconds so forgive me if some grammar, spelling or points are not right!!

alan0387 · 13-02-2021 8:10pm

First I would like to thank you for taking the time to read this email. I ask you read this with an open mind without prejudice or existing opinions regarding sport shooting.

There is a proposal working its way throughout the EU currently regarding Lead used in ammunition for shotguns and rifles. It proposes a ban on the use of lead as a material in ammunition production. This is a complex and far reaching subject and I will try to contain an overview rather than going into too much detail in this particular mail.

This has been seen amongst firearms owners, be they farmers, vermin/pest controllers, hunters and sport/target shooters (my particular association with firearm ownership) that this new proposed legislation is nothing more than a backdoor to further limit/reduce or eradicate firearms and their ownership from private citizens.

This is the view due to the fact that the proposal calls for shotguns to move to steel shot. This causes a multitude of problems. First, the vast majority of shotguns CANNOT be reproofed (essentially recertified) for steel shot. Only much newer, and far more expensive shotguns can be reproofed. This essentially outlaws and renders these shotguns useless. Secondly, there is no proof house in Ireland. It is based in the UK and opens up import and export problems on top of UK certifications not being valid within the EU due to Brexit. Even sending to a proof house within Europe is expensive and unrealistic.

Rifle ammunition faces the problem from a different side. People who hunt will be greater versed than I in the effects of non lead ammunition. Required penetration, hydrostatic shock and expansion for clean humane kills on game is of vital importance and the cause for huge investment by ammunition manufacturers to ensure each of these properties is met. As a target shooter, lead provides a stable, predictable, efficient and ideal material to achieve the consistency, repeatability and deformation required to shoot accurately and safely. Lead will deform upon impact with a surface and has a much lower ricochet potential. The projectile material is also required to be softer than the barrel of the firearm to allow correct sealing, correct engagement with the rifling and reduce wear on the barrel to a minimum.

Lead free ammunition is currently more expensive, harder to find, has vastly lower performance than traditional lead based ammunition.

The current view of lead as a dangerous substance to human and wildlife health is set from the 90's and before. Lead used in fuel and paints was a different molecular makeup and far more 'bio-available' and easily absorbed than lead used in for example ammunition, weights and fishing equipment to name a few. Studies up to mid 1990 showed effects of lead in waterfowl, raptors and other wildlife. Conversely, once lead fuel, lead paints etc were outlawed, the result was vastly reduced lead poisoning and toxicity found in various wildlife.

So I believe the environmental impact stated in the proposed legislation is outdated, wrongfully presented and deliberately misconstrued. Further to my point is the exception to lead ammo for Law Enforcement, Military and Security Forces.

A recent survey within the EU found that 1,400,000 tonnes of lead products are produced in the EU each year. 50,000 tonnes are for ammunition. This means 1,350,000 tonnes of lead has nothing to do with shooting sports. Of that 50,000 tonnes, 10,000 to 15,000 tonnes are shooting sports. This means that 70-80%, by mass, of all lead based ammunition in the EU is accounted for by non-sporting uses, ie, military and law enforcement.

These figures put the issue facing sports shooters into stark prospective. These measures are firearm control driven and not environmentally driven as the vast majority are led to believe.

I would really appreciate a response on this subject, and I hope I can rely on you to relay the shooting sports communities concerns to MEP's and fellow TD's in the hope that this legislation does not pass. It will be a detriment to the shooting sports community.

GooseB · 13-02-2021 9:01pm

These figures put the issue facing sports shooters into stark prospective.

- "perspective" ?

One thing I'd comment on is the mentioning of shotgun shot. The MEP's that just voted to ban lead shot over wetlands and no doubt only partially grasped what it was all about may say to themselves "what's this lad on about, sure we just voted and banned lead shotgun shot didn't we?" and completely miss that they haven't banned lead shot over non-wetlands - small as that land space is here in Ireland. Also maybe mention clay shooting as they're probably only thinking of hunting?

This is the view due to the fact that the proposal calls for shotguns to move to steel shot.

I don't think it mentions a specific alternative, does it? Maybe reword to something along the lines of "This is the view due to the fact that the proposal calls for shotguns to move to alternatives - such as steel shot" What do you think?

Also, maybe mention that shooting ranges in their very essence contain all fired projectiles and the bullets are caught in the backstops/berms/bullet traps. ???

alan0387 · 13-02-2021 9:15pm

GooseB wrote: »

Completely miss that they haven't banned lead shot over non-wetlands - small as that land space is here in Ireland.

Yes good point, but that highlights what was discussed earlier about for example, .22 target shooters turning a blind eye to shotgun legislation thinking it won't affect them, and the firearms owners needing to stick together regardless of discipline.

Also maybe mention clay shooting as they're probably only thinking of hunting?

Yes I tried to encompass everyone under sports shooting but maybe I need to mention the different disciplines by name.

I don't think it mentions a specific alternative, does it? Maybe reword to something along the lines of "This is the view due to the fact that the proposal calls for shotguns to move to alternatives - such as steel shot" What do you think?

I'd planned on going back over the proposal again before sending and making a summary to make sure I had my points spot on. Steel shot was mentioned on here but I like your wording there.

Also, maybe mention that shooting ranges in their very essence contain all fired projectiles and the bullets are caught in the backstops/berms/bullet traps. ???

Yes I had considered that too. It is an important point.

Thanks thats the sort of input I'm looking for!

Shooting Forum - Firearms licencing information

Where do we go from here?

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