The way forward for LC2021

r93kaey5p2izun · 12-02-2021 07:48PM

I just listened back to the interview with Michael Gillespie there as I was surprised at what was reported here. Maybe I was listening to a different interview but he did not say calculated grades were an acceptable contingency, he did not talk about teachers engaging in additional assessment in preparation for predicted grades.

Treppen · 12-02-2021 08:08PM

PoolDude wrote: »

Good context/insight.

You'd imagine that they should have been discussing the exam paper format and the Oral/Practical plans as part of the parallel process. Students want choice but that includes written exams, Unions want written exams so it compounds the departments bad planning that they are not discussing that in the meetings. I would have envisaged 2 sub groups working on each parallel process and syncing to align them to the guiding principles agreed for the discussions.

What's you take on the fact that the talks have continued today and will do over the weekend (the Ministers statement). Surely what ever they come up with is pointless if one Union then has to buy in to the solutions they are now not part of?

The department are trying to ram things through under the guise of "talks" even Norma tried to claim she had spoken to all stakeholders before declaring schools reopen I'm January.

Typically when talks are called for its quite often the Union going in for hours stating their position while the department nod and pretend to take notes and nod, then leave and do whatever they want anyway, and then use the talks as a way of saying they consulted with all stakeholders.

But they backed the ASTI into a corner this time and Department expected to do the same and pronounce they had found a solution and make the usual garbled Friday pronouncement this evening. Best thing the ASTI could do was refuse to engage and not be used like they were in the past.

Now it's cards on the table time, the department have to admit that they never made any plans for any form of sat exams , which is why they are pushing the predicted grades only option. They'll have to come up with something fast. Remember , the students don't just want predicted grades... They want the option of sitting the exam too. They should also call on the minister and ask what plans have been or will be made.

Wombatman · 12-02-2021 08:14PM

Bobtheman wrote: »

I assume you are not a teacher and I don't have the time to go over what occurred last year. If you were genuinely interested in education you'd know. But let's just say the word farce springs to mind. Adieu.

Address the content of the post please. I know teachers compiled and ranked grades last year did they not?

If you are a teacher, you are not doing your profession any favours with the lazy post and the condescending tone.

Bobtheman · 12-02-2021 08:19PM

Wombatman wrote: »

Address the content of the post please. I know teachers compiled and ranked grades last year did they not?

If you are a teacher, you are not doing your profession any favours with the lazy post and the condescending tone.

I recall who you are now and I don't give a flying fxxx what you think. Blocking you now. Troll.

Treppen · 12-02-2021 08:29PM

Wombatman wrote: »

It has been argued here that the department should have been prepared for all eventualities and were feckless not to have done so. Students were considering the possibility of calculated grades since September. I expect the teachers who have the required data considered the obvious likelihood of PGs and acted accordingly.

Acted accordingly? Like how?

What do you mean by "required data"... Do you mean using a test done by students at home and extrapolating a 2:30hr exam Leaving Cert grade from it?
Do we mark students who were absent as a zero or 100% or class average!

Maybe your are asking what the difference between formative and summative assessment is. So I'll answer that.

Formative: you can use tests or even general class tasks as a teaching tool along the way.

Summative assessment: that's at the end, that's up to the student.

The two are not the same.

Mocks were handy last year though as it was under exam type conditions, but even then they can be used formatively before the real exam.
Hence why teachers can decide to give a really difficult exam for high achievement students to stress test them.
Or relatively easy exams for students who you need to give a bit of confidence to or consolidate certain parts of the course they have covered which might be more agreeable with ensuring a good grade.

Wombatman · 12-02-2021 08:49PM

Treppen wrote: »

Acted accordingly? Like how?

What do you mean by "required data"... Do you mean using a test done by students at home and extrapolating a 2:30hr exam Leaving Cert grade from it?
Do we mark students who were absent as a zero or 100% or class average!

Maybe your are asking what the difference between formative and summative assessment is. So I'll answer that.

Formative: you can use tests or even general class tasks as a teaching tool along the way.

Summative assessment: that's at the end, that's up to the student.

The two are not the same.

Mocks were handy last year though as it was under exam type conditions, but even then they can be used formatively before the real exam.
Hence why teachers can decide to give a really difficult exam for high achievement students to stress test them.
Or relatively easy exams for students who you need to give a bit of confidence to or consolidate certain parts of the course they have covered which might be more agreeable with ensuring a good grade.

Required data.......

Teachers were allowed to use a range of data in arriving at their mark, including coursework, end of term tests, mock exams, etc.

They were advised, however, to exercise caution with mock exam results because those results are not always reliable indicators of how a student will perform in the actual exams.

Teachers would also have taken into account a student’s general ability as well as their performance in class. They had quite an amount of leeway. The core driver was their "professional judgement"

https://amp.rte.ie/amp/1159267/

Bobtheman · 12-02-2021 09:03PM

Treppen wrote: »

Acted accordingly? Like how?

What do you mean by "required data"... Do you mean using a test done by students at home and extrapolating a 2:30hr exam Leaving Cert grade from it?
Do we mark students who were absent as a zero or 100% or class average!

Maybe your are asking what the difference between formative and summative assessment is. So I'll answer that.

Formative: you can use tests or even general class tasks as a teaching tool along the way.

Summative assessment: that's at the end, that's up to the student.

The two are not the same.

Mocks were handy last year though as it was under exam type conditions, but even then they can be used formatively before the real exam.
Hence why teachers can decide to give a really difficult exam for high achievement students to stress test them.
Or relatively easy exams for students who you need to give a bit of confidence to or consolidate certain parts of the course they have covered which might be more agreeable with ensuring a good grade.

Why do you bother with Wombat? Anybody involved in education knew about the farce last year.. This ain't citizen information or the department Web site.

Bobtheman · 12-02-2021 09:04PM

It has to be noted there are only two mock companies and most students knew what was coming up.

rainbowtrout · 12-02-2021 09:09PM

Wombatman wrote: »

It has been argued here that the department should have been prepared for all eventualities and were feckless not to have done so. Students were considering the possibility of calculated grades since September. I expect the teachers who have the required data considered the obvious likelihood of PGs and acted accordingly.

Hold on. The DES and the SEC run the Leaving Cert/LCA and Junior Cert. It was incumbent on them to have a plan in place in the event that we would miss a significant portion of school this year. They are responsible for assessment, not teachers.

You know something like:

Plan A - Best Case Scenario

Cases remain low, schools can remain open all year, exams can proceed as normal with some modifications perhaps to practicals - regarding number of people in a room at one time, e.g. for home ec, woodwork, metalwork etc.

Plan B

Schools open and shut for short periods, or there are regional lockdowns in some counties, or some individual schools have to close for two weeks due to a breakout. Perhaps some contingency planning if this happens around the time of practicals.

Plan C

National lockdown for short periods, e.g. max two weeks. Depending on the time of year contingency planning for completion of projects, practicals, orals. Consideration given to tweaking written papers. Potential to rearrange Easter holidays to coincide with lockdown if it happened in March/April to maximise class contact time.

Plan D - Where we are now

Prolonged national lockdown. Consideration given to time lost in classroom teaching. Orals to move online. Offer more options on written papers, or leave them as they are and do them on a 'best four out of five questions' etc.

Flag all plans well in advance to education sectors so principals, teachers and students know what may happen. Outline to schools what form of assessment should take place in the event that predicted grades become a factor in awarding LC grades this year. Provide standardisation. Make this known at a reasonable point in the school year so fairness can be achieved for students as much as is possible.

None of this has been done. They've had 7 months since last June to consider the fallout for this year.

Rosita · 12-02-2021 09:10PM

Wombatman wrote: »

Would it be logical to conclude that the same type of data might be needed again this year?

/QUOTE]

You have nailed in one. It is indeed logical to conclude that the same type of data might be needed again this year. It is not there. Last year I had four significant sets of challenging exam data for my LC HL class.

Conversely, this year, with an OL bordering FL class, with brutal attendance, I have one Fifth Year Christmas exam done before Covid with a few 'encouragement' 40 per cents in there. You could be an ASTI spokesperson.

rainbowtrout · 12-02-2021 09:19PM

You have nailed in one. It is indeed logical to conclude that the same type of data might be needed again this year. It is not there. Last year I had four significant sets of challenging exam data for my LC HL class.

Conversely, this year, with an OL bordering FL class, with brutal attendance, I have one Fifth Year Christmas exam done before Covid with a few 'encouragement' 40 per cents in there. You could be an ASTI spokesperson.

In my school (and I'm sure in others) we were told to give students every chance of doing an exam so there would be data there for them in the event of predicted grades. So if they were at home isolating, to email them the exam and they could do it at home. Already that raises issues. They got to sit the exam at home with access to their textbook and the internet and the rest sat it under my supervision at school. So there is a grade for them, but perhaps not one that is accurate reflection of their actual ability.

Some students are playing that game, and some are avoiding assessment at all, even in the last few weeks while everything is online figuring that a grade has to be submitted for them, can't give them zero just because they didn't sit an exam.

joebloggs32 · 12-02-2021 09:33PM

Wombatman wrote: »

Address the content of the post please. I know teachers compiled and ranked grades last year did they not?

If you are a teacher, you are not doing your profession any favours with the lazy post and the condescending tone.

Last year we could arrive at a calculated grade that we could reasonably stand over as we had completed every step of the ususl leaving cert pathway right up to mid March.
Those students had for me in 5th year completed xmas and summer exams.
In sixth year had mini mocks, mocks and projects almost complete. One more week and they were ready for submission. From there out to the exams would have been revision.
I coiuld also include the countless essays handed in to me to go with all that information.

With all that information i spent about two weeks calculating grades and i must have nailed it as they all got the grade I gave them, bar one student who was later moved up by the review.

This years group.
5th year - xmas exams, summer was online, but the students had their books so not a real exam.
6th year, mini mocks.
Project....turned into a farce thanks to covid. Went on a field trip on a Friday, by monday half the class was out as close contacts. Tried to muddle through with half tbe class tuning in from home but its a mess at the moment and would be impossible right now to grade it.
No mocks to use as it stands also.
Essays, well considerably less than compared to last year also.

So, this year I could not confidently produce CALCULATED grades on the data available.
If it comes to it and there is no exams what I would be submitting is a PREDICTIVE grade....in other words guesswork.

Treppen · 12-02-2021 10:49PM

Wombatman wrote: »

Required data.......

https://amp.rte.ie/amp/1159267/

That was last year. No mocks have been done this year... The rest is formative assessment.

Treppen · 12-02-2021 10:51PM

joebloggs32 wrote: »

Last year we could arrive at a calculated grade that we could reasonably stand over as we had completed every step of the ususl leaving cert pathway right up to mid March.
Those students had for me in 5th year completed xmas and summer exams.
In sixth year had mini mocks, mocks and projects almost complete. One more week and they were ready for submission. From there out to the exams would have been revision.
I coiuld also include the countless essays handed in to me to go with all that information.

With all that information i spent about two weeks calculating grades and i must have nailed it as they all got the grade I gave them, bar one student who was later moved up by the review.

This years group.
5th year - xmas exams, summer was online, but the students had their books so not a real exam.
6th year, mini mocks.
Project....turned into a farce thanks to covid. Went on a field trip on a Friday, by monday half the class was out as close contacts. Tried to muddle through with half tbe class tuning in from home but its a mess at the moment and would be impossible right now to grade it.
No mocks to use as it stands also.
Essays, well considerably less than compared to last year also.

So, this year I could not confidently produce CALCULATED grades on the data available.
If it comes to it and there is no exams what I would be submitting is a PREDICTIVE grade....in other words guesswork.

I think we have to start calling them magic grades.

Or in international education research literature for years to come it'll be cited as "a little bit Irish grades"

PoolDude · 12-02-2021 11:03PM

Treppen wrote: »

I think we have to start calling them magic grades.

Or in international education research literature for years to come it'll be cited as "a little bit Irish grades"

Stick with PG - Predicted, Probable, Possible, Pandemic, Prophesied, Proposed, Planned or even Political :-) :-)„.
There’s one to suit everybody in the audience.

History Queen · 12-02-2021 11:05PM

:pac:

PoolDude wrote: »

Stick with PG - Predicted, Probable, Possible, Pandemic, Prophesied, Proposed, Planned or even Political :-) :-)„.
There’s one to suit everybody in the audience.

Pretend has to be in there somewhere surely? :pac::pac::pac:

Bobtheman · 12-02-2021 11:36PM

The mood music is turning against the Asti.
We know where this will probably lead
Get your favorite lubricant ready and assume the position...

Treppen · 12-02-2021 11:59PM

Bobtheman wrote: »

The mood music is turning against the Asti.
We know where this will probably lead
Get your favorite lubricant ready and assume the position...

Thankfully the ASTI leadership only need support from teachers to maintain their stance. They have that in spades.
I think people are realising the department have/had zero plans made for the leaving cert since last year. Dispute Micheáls pronouncement.

Bobtheman · 13-02-2021 12:15AM

The Asti has a long history of cave ins combined with
poor leadership.
This is slightly different in that it's not a pay issue.
Thus I'm not sure what instruments of torture can be wheeled out by the Department
.But they can turn the PR screws on the members. I don't have great faith in my fellow members most of whom could not be arsed to vote in the recent pay deal

Smacruairi · 13-02-2021 01:23AM

Nah, no superconventions this time around...

How those people weren't named, shamed, and posted in every teacher's group known to man is a mystery in itself.

Bobtheman · 13-02-2021 04:48AM

Smacruairi wrote: »

Nah, no superconventions this time around...

How those people weren't named, shamed, and posted in every teacher's group known to man is a mystery in itself.

Clarify.. Over what exactly

km79 · 13-02-2021 10:18AM

https://twitter.com/irishtimes/status/1360514215619006464?s=24

Under draft plans, all 60,000 Leaving Cert students would have the option to avail of calculated grades and complete written exams in June if they wished, according to well-placed sources. No agreement had been reached on how oral and practical exams might feed into this process.

Decision has been made . Talks are a pure charade
It will be the above
Memo going to cabinet Tuesday which will also include draft plans for returning. It will no doubt be leaked before then .

With calculated grades on the agenda I’ll be amazed if L Certs are not back on or even before Mon March 1st. Public health advice be damned ..........
No point of Mocks now either . That’s an extra two weeks of class tuition time in some schools

No mention of the JC...

Rosita · 13-02-2021 10:34AM

km79 wrote: »

[

With calculated grades on the agenda I’ll be amazed if L Certs are not back on or even before Mon March 1st. Public health advice be damned ..........

Funnily enough I'd be thinking the opposite. If they are desperate to get calculated grades through rather than written exams it's a sign we might not be back all that quickly. If teachers are plucking marks out of thin air anyway class contact time is far less important.

Now if written exams were the only show in town and actual preparation was needed it'd be a different story. Certainly it's the end of my LC class if there's predicted grades solely. I won't see them again.

I'd imagine, after watching the high grades from last year and hearing Simon Harris promising college places for everyone most students will take their chances on predicted grades.

Bobtheman · 13-02-2021 10:55AM

The whole thing is volitile. Have we seen any public health advice on return of schools?
If the Asti holds firm which I would not bet on.. What then?
The department arranged assessments in school?
Would members follow the union?

km79 · 13-02-2021 11:02AM

Bobtheman wrote: »

The whole thing is volitile. Have we seen any public health advice on return of schools?
If the Asti holds firm which I would not bet on.. What then?
The department arranged assessments in school?
Would members follow the union?

Yes NPHET said it’s not safe yet mid week

Treppen · 13-02-2021 11:05AM

Bobtheman wrote: »

The whole thing is volitile. Have we seen any public health advice on return of schools?
If the Asti holds firm which I would not bet on.. What then?
The department arranged assessments in school?
Would members follow the union?

Well ASTI members will follow directives... Now I presume the ball is in TUI court...

Divide and conquer is the department's plan

Mrsmum · 13-02-2021 11:23AM

As far as I understand, Asti want a written LC with modified papers. I'm interested in teasing this out if anyone would oblige. So when I was at school I was a pretty good student but I would have struggled with the breadth of the workload. Once a certain level of intelligence is there, I think that's what separates a good student from a great one in terms of LC success. If the exam was shorter, more choice, whole areas cut out, I genuinely think I would have aced it ! Great for me but not great for the better students in the class. So I guess my question is is a modified exam not a dummed down one ? And how do you then differentiate between students' true ability if more students than normal in a class are doing excellently ? Is that then not a problem for the college points competition ? Maybe I've all wrong here, I'm just trying to figure out the thoughts in my head regarding how this option might work and if it is problematic in it's own way.

Bobtheman · 13-02-2021 11:28AM

In English they ditched a poet and a comparative mode. That saved at least a months work. Roughly.
That's already been done.
But I really think they are going to offer kids a choice.
Exam or predicted grade.
How this would work without the Asti is anybodys guess

Rosita · 13-02-2021 11:30AM

I know there was a bit of macho posturing in the latest Department info release through Carl O'brien about pressing ahead without the ASTI. Don't believe a word of it. Them doing this without teachers would be like me doing a class exam without students. Just can't happen. Politics is the art of the possible and we'll see that in the coming times. Foley will not want to be the Minister who pressed over LC chaos which is what could ensue. There won't be grades without teachers. It'd be like trying to have NCTs without mechanics or operations without surgeons.

Don't take public government utterances at face value. Remember two weeks ago the Minister was publicly committed to the traditional Leaving Cert like a drowning man is committed to a life buoy.

ascophyllum · 13-02-2021 11:31AM

If the Department are determined to plough ahead with calculated grades, then we'll have to just give H1, H2, H3s to students based on the paltry data we have and let them sort out the mess that will create. If you have damn all evidence to base a student's grade on, then you have to mark up, not down. The Dept refuse to acknowledge this so let them and the CAO sort out the ensuing mess.

The way forward for LC2021

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