Schools closed until March/April? (part 4) Mod warning in OP 22/01

am_zarathustra · 11-02-2021 10:13PM

hotmail.com wrote: »

Why are the unions even involved in these discussions.

The exams have nothing to do with the unions. Teachers just paid to teach.

If the department has no intention of running a LC then teachers need to include a large amount of summative assessment into their planning, if there will be terminal exams then they need formative assessment. It will change my entire plan for both my LC classes drastically depending on which it is. It's like saying how hospitals are run has nothing to do with nurses unions.

If they have not set papers, assessed the changes that need to be made and planned for project and oral work at all over the last 4 months then that's on the department but the union is right to question this and demand clarity for its members who have to adjust to whichever options or options are available.

Warbeastrior · 11-02-2021 10:14PM

hotmail.com wrote:

The exams have nothing to do with the unions. Teachers just paid to teach.

Ah here, please say you're joking.
The fact that the unions members are being asked to predict the grades of their students to decide if they get the college course they want.
That is a very tough thing to do for teachers of leaving certs.

billy_beckham · 11-02-2021 10:15PM

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

To sum up.

Don't plan for anything cos of those pesky teachers.

That's so weak, well done.

Oh yeah, forgot to throw in the "variants" bogeyman.... Contact your rep yet??

hotmail.com · 11-02-2021 10:16PM

am_zarathustra wrote: »

If the department has no intention of running a LC then teachers need to include a large amount of summative assessment into their planning, if there will be terminal exams then they need formative assessment. It will change my entire plan for both my LC classes drastically depending on which it is. It's like saying how hospitals are run has nothing to do with nurses unions.

If they have not set papers, assessed the changes that need to be made and planned for project and oral work at all over the last 4 months then that's on the department but the union is right to question this and demand clarity for its members who have to adjust to whichever options or options are available.

It looks like teachers are refusing to do anything.

Locotastic · 11-02-2021 10:18PM

hotmail.com wrote: »

Why are the unions even involved in these discussions.

The exams have nothing to do with the unions. Teachers just paid to teach.

The government appears to want to plámás the unions. They don't want any hassle, and want to be appearing to engage with them.

They also utilise unions for their leaks and media spin. Plus it gives government a free pass on having to make any actual progress.

It's like a little dance they all do now at this stage. Fast forward a week and the unions will be all for whatever same plan is rolled out again with lipstick on it.

The unions have to know that their leverage is seriously diminished at the moment, so won't have any choice in the matter.

billy_beckham · 11-02-2021 10:18PM

History Queen wrote: »

They agreed to working during the summer last year to make the LC happen. Then it was cancelled.

You only hear about the difficult talks not the ones that pass without incident.

Did you even consider that people whose entire careers are spent dealing with the DES and their decisions, would have a better idea of the issues with same than you do?

Not too many passing without incident lately...

The last sentence perfectly captured your inherent bias...

History Queen · 11-02-2021 10:20PM

billy_beckham wrote: »

Not too many passing without incident lately...

The last sentence perfectly captured your inherent bias...

Did it ever occur to you that some people know more about certain subjects than you through lived experience?

thomasdylan · 11-02-2021 10:21PM

History Queen wrote: »

They agreed to working during the summer last year to make the LC happen. Then it was cancelled.

You only hear about the difficult talks not the ones that pass without incident.

Did you even consider that people whose entire careers are spent dealing with the DES and their decisions, would have a better idea of the issues with same than you do?

I don't think the ASTI agreed to working during the summer last year to make the LC happen.

They anounced that no teacher would have to do anything. And that any extra work in the summer couldn't be enforced.

am_zarathustra · 11-02-2021 10:25PM

hotmail.com wrote: »

It looks like teachers are refusing to do anything.

I finished work at 8, I was at my desk at 8 this morning, I'm now planning a fun activity for my classes for tomorrow afternoon because they are all feeling down and need something nice to look forward too. I'm already planning for a hopeful return that first week after midterm for LCs, as is every other teacher I know.

Teachers aren't refusing to do anything. The union left the talks about holding the LC because the department were not talking about the logistics of holding a LC. Based on the SEC website, recruitment and lack of clarity this tracks with what most think, that the DES are lying and have no intention of holding any exams in June. For everyone, students mostly though, it would be best if they admitted this. The union has more information on the normal running of exams than other stakeholders (obviously bar the SEC) so they can see the bull**** that's being pushed out to the media while the reality on the ground is obvious.

If you think the unions are stopping the LC or stopping schools going back then you are 100% falling for the FF/FG party line brought to you by the IT education section.

History Queen · 11-02-2021 10:25PM

thomasdylan wrote: »

I don't think the ASTI agreed to working during the summer last year to make the LC happen.

They anounced that no teacher would have to do anything. And that any extra work in the summer couldn't be enforced.

No, they said essentially that it was voluntary. Not that they wouldn't do it but that it couldn't be compulsory (this was in terms of setting precedent if I recall correctly) I'm in TUI so can't remember the full ins and outs but there was no question of them not doing it, they just wanted it noted that it was teachers stepping up rather than being forced if I recall correctly. Nearly sure they issued a follow up statement about supporting the exams a few days after the initial teachers can't be compelled comment.

jimmytwotimes 2013 · 11-02-2021 10:26PM

billy_beckham wrote: »

Oh yeah, forgot to throw in the "variants" bogeyman.... Contact your rep yet??

Do you have a number for one?

Wombatman · 11-02-2021 10:27PM

am_zarathustra wrote: »

If the department has no intention of running a LC then teachers need to include a large amount of summative assessment into their planning, if there will be terminal exams then they need formative assessment. It will change my entire plan for both my LC classes drastically depending on which it is.

Agreed. Now try to imagine how mind boggling it all is for students. It's seems teachers, unions and the department are the only groups impacted by tonight's announcement according to this thread. LC students must be reeling.

Green Peter · 11-02-2021 10:29PM

Theses are the same union leaders that sold out new teachers in previous pay negations. They only have their own interests at heart. Embarrasing.

Icyseanfitz · 11-02-2021 10:30PM

billy_beckham wrote: »

Oh yeah, forgot to throw in the "variants" bogeyman.... Contact your rep yet??

jesus wept

am_zarathustra · 11-02-2021 10:31PM

History Queen wrote: »

No, they said essentially that it was voluntary. Not that they wouldn't do it but that it couldn't be compulsory (this was in terms of setting precedent if I recall correctly) I'm in TUI so can't remember the full ins and outs but there was no question of them not doing it, they just wanted it noted that it was teachers stepping up rather than being forced if I recall correctly. Nearly sure they issued a follow up statement about supporting the exams a few days after the initial teachers can't be compelled comment.

They issued supportive statements several times and made it clear the LC running was teachers preferred choice, helpful suggestions around blocking classes etc from members too. Teachers didn't have an issue with still coming to work for a few hours a week for a block class with LCs, we had zero issues in our schools and getting people to supervise would have been fine too. Many of us have taught these kids for 5/6 years, we care deeply about their education. Correcting was always going to be the issue really.

hesaidshesaid · 11-02-2021 10:33PM

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

It's September 2020 and schools have returned. Norma approaches the podium and announces the following, agreed with unions during talks over the summer months-

Norma says we are in uncertain times and while we currently believe schools to be safe environments, this may not always be the case.

If the event of further closures the following will be the arrangements.

Norma then proceeds to lay out a plan based on the length and timing of possible closures.

She outlines alternate methods of assessment.

She gives alternate dates of oral and practical exams and the point at which they may be completed online or, if the closures are prolonged, cancelled.

She says the CAO, if needed, will try to accommodate as many students as is possible to directly access their course of choice and which courses would require some entry tests due to a cap in numbers.

In this scenario, I'm not left trying to put the minds of LCs at ease as they wonder what material to study, will mocks go ahead, will orals or practicals be completed or will they even sit an exam.

Imagine all of this had actually come to pass. The last 6 months could have been such a different experience for all and the blame game that has emerged might never have happened. Wishful thinking.

mloc123 · 11-02-2021 10:33PM

Not often I would side with any union but... I see the ASTI viewpoint here, how can grades be calculated? Based on Junior cert results?

History Queen · 11-02-2021 10:34PM

am_zarathustra wrote: »

They issued supportive statements several times and made it clear the LC running was teachers preferred choice, helpful suggestions around blocking classes etc from members too. Teachers didn't have an issue with still coming to work for a few hours a week for a block class with LCs, we had zero issues in our schools and getting people to supervise would have been fine too. Many of us have taught these kids for 5/6 years, we care deeply about their education. Correcting was always going to be the issue really.

Thanks yes, I think I've blocked out most of what happened last April/May/June as a coping mechanism

Warbeastrior · 11-02-2021 10:34PM

am_zarathustra wrote:

I finished work at 8, I was at my desk at 8 this morning, I'm now planning a fun activity for my classes for tomorrow afternoon because they are all feeling down and need something nice to look forward too. I'm already planning for a hopeful return that first week after midterm for LCs, as is every other teacher I know.

Teachers aren't refusing to do anything. The union left the talks about holding the LC because the department were not talking about the logistics of holding a LC. Based on the SEC website, recruitment and lack of clarity this tracks with what most think, that the DES are lying and have no intention of holding any exams in June. For everyone, students mostly though, it would be best if they admitted this. The union has more information on the normal running of exams than other stakeholders (obviously bar the SEC) so they can see the bull**** that's being pushed out to the media while the reality on the ground is obvious.

If you think the unions are stopping the LC or stopping schools going back then you are 100% falling for the FF/FG party line brought to you by the IT education section.

***Drops mic***

Locotastic · 11-02-2021 10:35PM

Wombatman wrote: »

Agreed. Now try to imagine how mind boggling it all is for students. It's seems teachers, unions and the department are the only groups impacted by tonight's announcement according to this thread. LC students must be reeling.

It high time the government had the balls to tackle the unions head on for once. Students left in the lurch yet again.

Unions want a normal leaving cert yet they don't want to allow leaving cert students to return to school ASAP in order to give them some sort of a chance to sit the exams.

Belligerent and oppositional to the end, to the detriment of students and teachers.

billy_beckham · 11-02-2021 10:38PM

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

Do you have a number for one?

Sure it's there on the back of your card..

History Queen · 11-02-2021 10:38PM

Locotastic wrote: »

It high time the government had the balls to tackle the unions head on for once. Students left in the lurch yet again.

Unions want a normal leaving cert yet they don't want to allow leaving cert students to return to school ASAP in order to give them some sort of a chance to sit the exams.

Belligerent and oppositional to the end, to the detriment of students and teachers.

Are you for real? Seriously. The unions don't want to allow students back to schools? What precisely are you basing that on?

mloc123 · 11-02-2021 10:38PM

I still don't see why the LC is such an issues, it is 4 months away... and the current chat is that we are in strict levels of lockdown until May.
Based on last years trends, and with vaccine roll out we should be looking at very low levels of cases by June... why can the exams not just take place?

jimmytwotimes 2013 · 11-02-2021 10:39PM

mloc123 wrote: »

I still don't see why the LC is such an issues, it is 4 months away... and the current chat is that we are in strict levels of lockdown until May.
Based on last years trends, and with vaccine roll out we should be looking at very low levels of cases by June... why can the exams not just take place?

Orals and practicals are due to take place from March onwards so students need to know what they're preparing for.

Edit: Prime Time are doing to have a bit on LC later.

Locotastic · 11-02-2021 10:40PM

mloc123 wrote: »

I still don't see why the LC is such an issues, it is 4 months away... and the current chat is that we are in strict levels of lockdown until May.
Based on last years trends, and with vaccine roll out we should be looking at very low levels of cases by June... why can the exams not just take place?

The students haven't been at school and still aren't. That is probably not adequate time for them to prepare given that they missed 3 months from last year too.

Some work that goes towards leaving cert cannot be completed remotely.

downthemiddle · 11-02-2021 10:50PM

Locotastic wrote: »

It high time the government had the balls to tackle the unions head on for once. Students left in the lurch yet again.

Unions want a normal leaving cert yet they don't want to allow leaving cert students to return to school ASAP in order to give them some sort of a chance to sit the exams.

Belligerent and oppositional to the end, to the detriment of students and teachers.

Alternatively the government have no plan for the Leaving Cert and want to deflect the blame onto teachers. Based on last years Leaving Cert which do you think is most likely?

billy_beckham · 11-02-2021 10:51PM

mloc123 wrote: »

I still don't see why the LC is such an issues, it is 4 months away... and the current chat is that we are in strict levels of lockdown until May.
Based on last years trends, and with vaccine roll out we should be looking at very low levels of cases by June... why can the exams not just take place?

The variants.... We're in the middle of a pandemic....

The LC students are out of the classroom at the moment and even when they return who's to say for how long..

ASTI insisting it has to go ahead is a bit disingenuous..

wirelessdude01 · 11-02-2021 10:52PM

mloc123 wrote: »

I still don't see why the LC is such an issues, it is 4 months away... and the current chat is that we are in strict levels of lockdown until May.
Based on last years trends, and with vaccine roll out we should be looking at very low levels of cases by June... why can the exams not just take place?

Norma now doesn't want her beloved "traditional" leaving certificate to take place. You couldn't make this stuff up.

hesaidshesaid · 11-02-2021 10:54PM

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Norma now doesn't want her beloved "traditional" leaving certificate to take place. You couldn't make this stuff up.

Has she said what exactly she does want? Predicted grades? Based on what?

Those are rhetorical questions I suppose. I can't bring myself to watch Prime Time or the News at the moment.

downthemiddle · 11-02-2021 11:00PM

billy_beckham wrote: »

The variants.... We're in the middle of a pandemic....

The LC students are out of the classroom at the moment and even when they return who's to say for how long..

ASTI insisting it has to go ahead is a bit disingenuous..

You seem confused Billy because you said about the Unions

billy_beckham wrote: »

They have already prevented opening..

And a fortnight ago you said this about the 14 day rate

billy_beckham wrote: »

Falling quite quickly, return to real world teaching imminent hopefully.

To clarify, you want an imminent return to school but you don't want a Leaving Cert and it is all the unions fault.
Nobody can bend it quite like Beckham.

Schools closed until March/April? (part 4) **Mod warning in OP 22/01**

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Schools closed until March/April? (part 4) Mod warning in OP 22/01