The Dutch Language

Ubbquittious · 08-02-2021 2:21pm

Achtentachtig gieteizeren potkacheltjes

murpho999 · 08-02-2021 2:25pm

feargale wrote: »

Last time I was in Amsterdam I got the impression that there was more English than Dutch spoken there. I said to a few locals that I remembered Amsterdam as a Dutch-speaking city. "That was a long time ago" was the usual answer.

Yes but you're most likely in tourist spots with foreigners.

Dutch is definitely the language of the locals.

This is a simple fact and not up for debate.

Why would local people not speak their native language in their interactions with each other?

murpho999 · 08-02-2021 2:28pm

Lillyfae wrote: »

People are perceived as a bit rude, and the drug and sex tourism is frowned upon by ordinary Dutch people. There's hardly a red light district in the rest of the country anymore, and weed is strictly available to residents in other cities- they're not allowed sell to tourists.

But the city is not dominated by it.

There's a lot more to Amsterdam than the coffee shops and red light districts.

I think people should stop thinking of the place they see as a tourist and realise that a million people live in the city and environs and there's a lot more to it then what you see on a weekend on the lash in tacky bars.

Lillyfae · 08-02-2021 3:05pm

murpho999 wrote: »

But the city is not dominated by it.

There's a lot more to Amsterdam than the coffee shops and red light districts.

I think people should stop thinking of the place they see as a tourist and realise that a million people live in the city and environs and there's a lot more to it then what you see on a weekend on the lash in tacky bars.

I’ve spent plenty of time in Amsterdam and I’m not a tourist. I’m not exactly going to tell native Dutch people how they should perceive it. Even the million city dwellers get f*cked off with jaywalking tourists though. Additionally there’s a transience about the people living there, a lot of bloggers and Instagram models around these days. Living the dream by temporarily living in a flat above a canal.

Dutchboy352 · 08-02-2021 3:09pm

Zaph wrote: »

I remember reading a book a long time ago about how the English language evolved (might have been one of Bill Bryson's) and it pointed out that because of it's Germanic roots English has the word green (grun in German). But thanks to the Norman invasion it also has verdant (from the French vert) meaning the same thing. This duplication of words from each source is replicated throughout the English language to the point that while it is officially a Germanic language, in reality it's more of a hybrid off on its own, distinct from both the Germanic and Romance languages.

i think i remember hearing somewhere that longer words in the English language are often of French descent while shorter ones are Germanic in origin

irelandrover · 08-02-2021 3:12pm

Lillyfae wrote: »

People are perceived as a bit rude, and the drug and sex tourism is frowned upon by ordinary Dutch people. There's hardly a red light district in the rest of the country anymore, and weed is strictly available to residents in other cities- they're not allowed sell to tourists.

The part in bold isnt true. that rule was brought in for a while but quickly abandoned.

JupiterKid · 08-02-2021 3:24pm

It’s also interesting to note that Dutch itself has many words derived from modern French, which I believe is a legacy of the Napoleonic invasion of the Netherlands in the early 19th Century. My sister’s partner pointed this out to me.

For instance, the word in Dutch for wallet is “Portemonnee” whereas French the word is “Portefeuille.” This is one of apparently many loan words in Dutch from French.

As for Amsterdam, it is a highly globalized and international city, has been for centuries (it grew and developed on international trade) so it is not surprising that English is widely used there. Most Amsterdammers can speak very good English.

Amsterdam is a very busy city and has so much more to offer the tourist than the coffee shops and red light district. Superb museums, galleries, restaurants, cafes, live venues, exhibitions, antique shops and of course, diamond and jewelry stores. I’m sure most Dubliners wouldn’t want tourists to think Temple Bar represents the city - the same with Amsterdam and the red light district. It’s only a relatively small part of the city centre.

However, where my sister lives (Zaan region) - only about 15 miles North of Amsterdam - many people over the age of 60 cannot speak English and indeed some younger people there have a limited grasp of English.

I have always found the Dutch to be a very friendly people (with some exceptions) but they are very direct (which I like) - which might be mistaken for rudeness by us Irish, who are notoriously indirect.

artanevilla · 08-02-2021 3:26pm

Always great to hear a mix of English and Dutch being roared at the ladder hurling final.

TRIUUUUGLLA.

Lillyfae · 08-02-2021 3:38pm

irelandrover wrote: »

The part in bold isnt true. that rule was brought in for a while but quickly abandoned.

In Amsterdam it was quickly abandoned, but it was retained where I am and in other cities. A “wietpas” was originally suggested, where residents had to apply to the council, but this didn’t fly because it required intrusive and permanently recorded information- ie on record that someone buys/ uses weed. Now people have to speak Dutch, or produce a residence permit. Where is this not the case?

irelandrover · 08-02-2021 3:40pm

Lillyfae wrote: »

In Amsterdam it was quickly abandoned, but it was retained where I am and in other cities. A “wietpas” was originally suggested, where residents had to apply to the council, but this didn’t fly because it required intrusive and permanently recorded information- ie on record that someone buys/ uses weed. Now people have to speak Dutch, or produce a residence permit. Where is this not the case?

definitely not the case in the coffee shop beside me in Eindhoven.

gifted · 08-02-2021 4:17pm

PTH2009 wrote: »

Afrikaans is similar to Dutch isn't it ?

French, Dutch and South Africans can be pretty rude people at times

At times???......it's built into them, especially if they have an audience

Lillyfae · 08-02-2021 4:44pm

irelandrover wrote: »

definitely not the case in the coffee shop beside me in Eindhoven.

Obviously not that strict then, people I know in Eindhoven need to flash their residence permit in order to buy. I’ve had to buy for people visiting me because they were turned away.

murpho999 · 08-02-2021 4:54pm

gifted wrote: »

At times???......it's built into them, especially if they have an audience

These generalisations are stupid.

Dutch people may come across as rude or direct as their native language is less flowery than English.

In Dutch it's not required to say "thank you" or "please" with everything although they often say it.

So what may be rude or curt to an English speaker is normal and unnoticed by others.

Languages can influence culture and perception a lot and should not be construed as rudeness.

riffmongous · 08-02-2021 5:25pm

JupiterKid wrote: »

It’s also interesting to note that Dutch itself has many words derived from modern French, which I believe is a legacy of the Napoleonic invasion of the Netherlands in the early 19th Century. My sister’s partner pointed this out to me.

For instance, the word in Dutch for wallet is “Portemonnee” whereas French the word is “Portefeuille.” This is one of apparently many loan words in Dutch from French.

As for Amsterdam, it is is highly globalized and international city, has been for centuries (it grew and developed on international trade) so it is not surprising that English is widely used there. Most Amsterdammers can speak very good English.

Amsterdam is a very busy city and has so much more to offer the tourist than the coffee shops and red light district. Superb museums, galleries, restaurants, cafes, live venues, exhibitions, antique shops and of course, diamond and jewelry stores. I’m sure most Dubliners wouldn’t want tourists to think Temple Bar represents the city - the same with Amsterdam and the red light district. It’s only a relatively small part of the city centre.

However, where my sister lives (Zaan region) - only about 15 miles North of Amsterdam - many people over the age of 60 cannot speak English and indeed some younger people there have a limited grasp of English.

I have always found the Dutch to be a very friendly people (with some exceptions) but they are very direct (which I like) - which might be mistaken for rudeness by us Irish, who are notoriously indirect.

I've heard portmonee used in Vienna too, interestingly. I'd guess it's a legacy of French being the "it" language for a while from the Louis's to Napoleon. Russian also has quite a lot of French words I've noticed

Dutchboy352 · 08-02-2021 5:40pm

riffmongous wrote: »

I've heard portmonee used in Vienna too, interestingly. I'd guess it's a legacy of French being the "it" language for a while from the Louis's to Napoleon. Russian also has quite a lot of French words I've noticed

I remember reading war and peace that in the background notes that french was such an it language with the Russian nobility that some only spoke French or only spoke enough Russian to boss around the servants

iamwhoiam · 08-02-2021 5:43pm

riffmongous wrote: »

I've heard portmonee used in Vienna too, interestingly. I'd guess it's a legacy of French being the "it" language for a while from the Louis's to Napoleon. Russian also has quite a lot of French words I've noticed

They call it portmonee in Berlin too

gifted · 08-02-2021 6:11pm

murpho999 wrote: »

These generalisations are stupid.

Dutch people may come across as rude or direct as their native language is less flowery than English.

In Dutch it's not required to say "thank you" or "please" with everything although they often say it.

So what may be rude or curt to an English speaker is normal and unnoticed by others.

Languages can influence culture and perception a lot and should not be construed as rudeness.

No...I find them just plain rude. .....to use language as an excuse is just...well...stupid.

Anyway....people have different opinions so we'll just have to accept that.

Tony EH · 08-02-2021 8:14pm

Deleted User wrote: »

What makes Amsterdam different from the rest of the country? Am curious.

Relaxed drug laws, their red light district, the people come across as more smug to other Dutch folk. There's a different air about the place that other Dutch people I've met tend not to like.

It's rather like the French and their view of Paris/Parisians.

With regards to Amsterdam, a lot of the Dutch don't actually like the relaxed drugs laws, etc. Even those in Amsterdam itself. They feel it attracts the "wrong" element.

I've found the Dutch to be actually quite conservative and not the free for all's that they are usually characterised as. This was especially the case outside of Amsterdam. The people I met in Venlo thought Amsterdamers were "dom".

Tony EH · 08-02-2021 8:21pm

Dutchboy352 wrote: »

I remember reading war and peace that in the background notes that french was such an it language with the Russian nobility that some only spoke French or only spoke enough Russian to boss around the servants

French was the language of many a Royal Court around Europe.

It was the official Royal language in England too, for about 400 years.

bigar · 08-02-2021 8:42pm

Lillyfae wrote: »

My Dutch is fluent and I can understand and communicate with Vlaams speakers. (...) both languages are easily understood by the other. It's more of a dialect comparable to, for example, someone from Munster speaking to someone from Ulster.

Vlaams (Flemish) is not a separate language and is proper Dutch.

I see the difference more as being between English spoken in Britain and as spoken in Australia.

Afrikaans is considered another language though.

murpho999 · 08-02-2021 9:52pm

Tony EH wrote: »

Relaxed drug laws, their red light district, the people come across as more smug to other Dutch folk. There's a different air about the place that other Dutch people I've met tend not to like.

It's rather like the French and their view of Paris/Parisians.

With regards to Amsterdam, a lot of the Dutch don't actually like the relaxed drugs laws, etc. Even those in Amsterdam itself. They feel it attracts the "wrong" element.

I've found the Dutch to be actually quite conservative and not the free for all's that they are usually characterised as. This was especially the case outside of Amsterdam. The people I met in Venlo thought Amsterdamers were "dom".

Totally agree with this.

Dutch have an unearned reputation for being liberal and open minded but I found the opposite with my life there.

People very set in their ways. Same breakfast and lunch every day (bread and cheese), go mad on a Sunday and might have heated rolls.
Dinner at 6 and no phone calls made at that time.

Socialising mostly in homes and an invite to a Dutch birthday is a culture shock I'll never get over.

I've been to Irish funerals with more craic in them than Dutch parties.

Lillyfae · 08-02-2021 10:05pm

bigar wrote: »

Vlaams (Flemish) is not a separate language and is proper Dutch.

I see the difference more as being between English spoken in Britain and as spoken in Australia.

I believe even the Dutch refer to it as a “purer” form of the language.

LimeFruitGum · 08-02-2021 10:36pm

I picked up a copy of "The Undutchables" the last time I was over in NL. It has been years since I last read it, but it is an enjoyable read about contemporary life in the Netherlands. I'm sure it concurs with other posters' comments about the locals' routines, directness and so on.

I had a Dutch client years ago and I would go over to see them once a year. They were out in Almere Haven, not that I got to see much of it. I've been to Amsterdam, the Hague and Maastricht so far. I remember being in a shop in Maastricht and I garbled something about "Engels, no Nederlands" or whatever, and the salesgirl couldn't have been more apologetic. I was apologizing to her about not being able to speak Dutch, she was apologizing for not realizing I was foreign, and we ended up having a good old chat.

murpho999 · 09-02-2021 1:47am

LimeFruitGum wrote: »

I picked up a copy of "The Undutchables" the last time I was over in NL. It has been years since I last read it, but it is an enjoyable read about contemporary life in the Netherlands. I'm sure it concurs with other posters' comments about the locals' routines, directness and so on.

I had a Dutch client years ago and I would go over to see them once a year. They were out in Almere Haven, not that I got to see much of it. I've been to Amsterdam, the Hague and Maastricht so far. I remember being in a shop in Maastricht and I garbled something about "Engels, no Nederlands" or whatever, and the salesgirl couldn't have been more apologetic. I was apologizing to her about not being able to speak Dutch, she was apologizing for not realizing I was foreign, and we ended up having a good old chat.

Yes, the Undutchables is an interesting read, especially if you lived there for a bit.

An-Irishmans-difficulties-with-the-Dutch-languageby-Cuey-na-Gael-907000839.jpg?fit=433%2C737&ssl=4

An-Irishmans-difficulties-with-the-Dutch-languageby-Cuey-na-Gael-907000839.jpg?fit=433%2C737&ssl=4

I also read the above book about 20 years ago when I was learning the language and found it hilarious. Over one hundred year old but still very relatable as he gets into awkward situations due to language mix ups.

You would need some grasp of Dutch language to enjoy it though.

snowstorm445 · 09-02-2021 10:29am

Tony EH wrote: »

Well, he's correct. English is an international language. Dutch isn't.

But it's one of the things that's made the Irish really lazy/poor at learning other languages, in that we've had it too easy with our use of English.

Frankly, it's a thing we can be thankful to the English for. :pac: Because if Irish was our first language, we'd still be a backwater.

Bit of a bizarre thing to say, plenty of countries including the Dutch, Nordics, Germans, Austrians etc, speak English well along with their local language and are very prosperous and developed. We'd likely be even more familiar with English given our connections to Britain. It is possible to be bilingual in this day and age.

What is it about using Irish that makes so many Irish people still, to this day, associate it with backwardness and poverty?

ohnonotgmail · 09-02-2021 10:40am

snowstorm445 wrote: »

Bit of a bizarre thing to say, plenty of countries including the Dutch, Nordics, Germans, Austrians etc, speak English well along with their local language and are very prosperous and developed. We'd likely be even more familiar with English given our connections to Britain. It is possible to be bilingual in this day and age.

What is it about using Irish that makes so many Irish people still, to this day, associate it with backwardness and poverty?

Peig.

Lillyfae · 09-02-2021 10:45am

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Peig.

:pac:

AllGunsBlazing · 09-02-2021 1:03pm

We should resurrect Latin. We'd all be walking around sounding like scholars.

bigar · 09-02-2021 3:03pm

Ubbquittious wrote: »

Achtentachtig gieteizeren potkacheltjes

Tut tut tut, bad spelling

Achtentachtig gietijzeren potkacheltjes

feargale · 09-02-2021 4:03pm

AllGunsBlazing wrote: »

We should resurrect Latin. We'd all be walking around sounding like scholars.

Trouble is, people might get into the spirit of things and resurrect all of their culture. You wouldn't like the auld crucifiction.

The Dutch Language

Comments