The Dutch Language

SharpshooterTom

Am I right in thinking its the closest major language to English? Numbers 1-20 look remarkably similar!

Always been a bit of a debate of whether English should be regarded as a Germanic or a Romance language. I mean it is officially regarded within the Germanic family but the Norman invasion changed so much of the vocabulary it feels quite distant from those languages. I don't think people find German any easier to learn than French or Spanish.

silliussoddius

More so the Frisian dialect/sister langauge

bigar

They stopped just at the right time as from 21 onwards it continues with eenentwintig, translates to one-and-twenty. The last number is first and then the decimal. In English it is also like that up to nine-teen but then changes to twenty-one. I always found that a bit weird.

In Dutch it continues like that all the way to 99 (nine-and-ninety). It is the same in German. Most Dutch speaking people would say German is closest relation, not English.

Dr. Bre

Yesh....

Danzy

German is closer to Dutch, very close to Friesian, Which is the closest relative to English.

Friesian and 14th century English are dialects more than different languages.

Zaph

SharpshooterTom wrote: »

Always been a bit of a debate of whether English should be regarded as a Germanic or a Romance language. I mean it is officially regarded within the Germanic family but the Norman invasion changed so much of the vocabulary it feels quite distant from those languages. I don't think people find German any easier to learn than French or Spanish.

I remember reading a book a long time ago about how the English language evolved (might have been one of Bill Bryson's) and it pointed out that because of it's Germanic roots English has the word green (grun in German). But thanks to the Norman invasion it also has verdant (from the French vert) meaning the same thing. This duplication of words from each source is replicated throughout the English language to the point that while it is officially a Germanic language, in reality it's more of a hybrid off on its own, distinct from both the Germanic and Romance languages.

jmlad2020

Sounds a bit like German with an influence of English. I've always heard they were similar which makes sense considering their close proximity geographically.

A Dutch person can probably understand a German speaker and vice versa.

Reminds me of the subtle differences between Irish and Scottish Gaelic which are very similar.


Edit. Makes you think all languages are a hybrid of each other through the eternity of time, integrated words and mixture of cultures. In that respect English is a mixture of thousands of generational languages that have come before it. Hundreds of thousands of years

New Home

A Swedish former colleague of mine told me that she wanted to learn Dutch, she thought it wouldn't be too difficult for her because to her it sounded like a mixture of German and Swedish and she could speak both languages already.

completedit

Not surprising. Its only weird because English became so dominant and the British and later the USA became the world hegemony. Western Europe is cooler when you see it outside of a European lens. Its a tiny part of the globe. Amazing that it came to dominate the world.

New Home

BTW: https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=116182873&postcount=2145

Cerveza

They are dirty in bed.

SharpshooterTom

I find it a bit surprising that none of the indigenous British and Irish languages (Welsh, Irish, Cornish, Manx, Scots Gaelic etc) have little to no influence on English? Those languages are about as much related to English as the Slavic languages.

SharpshooterTom

silliussoddius wrote: »

More so the Frisian dialect/sister langauge

I've watched some of his videos, they're very good.

I've seen his video on the Irish language. I grew up in England before moving here at 14 and watching his video I'm glad I didn't learn it, even he remarks in the video its one of the tougher European languages to learn. Certainly much tougher than learning French, Spanish or German.

PTH2009

Would Dutch people be Germanic ?

Germans, Swiss and Austrians are very similar and can be hard to disguise

JupiterKid

Dutch from experience looks very difficult to understand in print but when spoken seems to be a mix between German and English, with much more of the Germanic influence. It is a very distinctive language.

English I believe - in my own impression of trying to view my own language - is Germanic in its roots and basic word order, but is so heavily influenced by Latin, Ancient Greek and early modern French in its lexicon, grammar and syntax that it is a sub-order of language of its own, which is a possible key to its global reach and success.

Tony EH

PTH2009 wrote: »

Would Dutch people be Germanic ?

Yes.

Dutch is Deutsch.

PTH2009

Tony EH wrote: »

Yes.

Dutch is Deutsch.

The Belgians could be a mix of German/French peoples same as Luxembourg

silliussoddius

Tony EH wrote: »

Yes.

Dutch is Deutsch.

Isn’t the term Dutch an exonym, where Nederlander is the endonym?

Tony EH

PTH2009 wrote: »

The Belgians could be a mix of German/French peoples same as Luxembourg

That's the Flemish.

Who, BTW, get very uppity if you get them wrong. Belgium can be an odd place though.

Tony EH

silliussoddius wrote: »

Isn’t the term Dutch an exonym, where Nederlander is the endonym?

Aye, it is.

But what I mean is that the Germans and the Dutch are pretty much the same people. There are some differences, but they stem from the same origins.

I am open to correction on this though.

lucalux

Dutch and German are really mutually intelligible to me

However, I don't say that to Germans or the Dutch

With Dutch, once you get the accent down, and can recognise the word endings, it's much easier to learn.

Basically put on a heavy Jaap Schhhtam accent and you're halfway there

PTH2009

Afrikaans is similar to Dutch isn't it ?

French, Dutch and South Africans can be pretty rude people at times

lucalux

PTH2009 wrote: »

Afrikaans is similar to Dutch isn't it ?

French, Dutch and South Africans can be pretty rude people at times

I like Dutch people for being less 'nice' than Irish people tbh.
I'd rather people be rude cos they don't like me, than pretend they like me. Personal preference though.

Tony EH

lucalux wrote: »

Dutch and German are really mutually intelligible to me

However, I don't say that to Germans or the Dutch

With Dutch, once you get the accent down, and can recognise the word endings, it's much easier to learn.

Basically put on a heavy Jaap Schhhtam accent and you're halfway there

Um, I don't know.

I can get to grips with German, which I find pretty straightforward (not that I'm a speaker mind you). But Dutch always leaves me in the dark.

The hardest thing about German is the masculine/feminine thing. "Die Luftwaffe" and all that.

lucalux

Tony EH wrote: »

Um, I don't know.

I can get to grips with German, which I find pretty straightforward (not that I'm a speaker mind you). But Dutch always leaves me in the dark.

The hardest thing about German is the masculine/feminine thing. "Die Luftwaffe" and all that.

I know what you mean, but if you have a good grasp of German, the sentence structure can be quite similar.
I've been using Duolingo on and off for about 2 years now, and my school German is probably back where I was at when I left school, but my Dutch is almost at the same level after only 2years.

Practising it is the issue, speaking a language, making mistakes, getting the idioms, all that helps a lot I find.

jojofizzio

PTH2009 wrote: »

Afrikaans is similar to Dutch isn't it ?

French, Dutch and South Africans can be pretty rude people at times

Found the Dutch exceptionally friendly when we were in Amsterdam...struck up conversation with us without any prompting....wasn’t expecting it tbh

SharpshooterTom

SharpshooterTom wrote: »

I've watched some of his videos, they're very good.

I've seen his video on the Irish language. I grew up in England before moving here at 14 and watching his video I'm glad I didn't learn it, even he remarks in the video its one of the tougher European languages to learn. Certainly much tougher than learning French, Spanish or German.

I moved here at 11 & did learn it. Wasn't that hard, I did honours level in school.I
People.say the same about Finnish, that it's one of the hardest languages to learn, I don't think so at all.

I think the less like English, the easier to learn!

pajor

I've been living in the Netherlands for 6 years and I still think it's a bollix of a language :P

Das Reich

As a Portuguese mothertongue than also speak other Latin languages, a see English as a corrupted Latin language with many of the words from Latin and often with different meanings. And many of the non Latin words and verbs have a synonym that is Latin like "commenced" instead of "started", "interred" instead of "buried", "augmented" instead of "increased" so on and on. Funny is that some Anglos says those kind of words to us thinking we can't understand.

bubblypop wrote: »

I think the less like English, the easier to learn!

English is so easy that I still have to find a foreigner that speaks it close enough to a native speaker. Even people from ex English colonies such as India or Nigeria that proudly says they were teached English from school are barely understandable. Met people here with more than 10 years living in Ireland that still needs someone to help with translation.

ShyMets

I worked with a Dutch guys year. One day I asked him how most Dutch people seem to be almost fluent in English. He answered "Well why the fu*k would anybody learn Dutch".

I thought fair point

riffmongous

PTH2009 wrote: »

Would Dutch people be Germanic ?

Germans, Swiss and Austrians are very similar and can be hard to disguise

Similar to an outsider, but on the inside you can tell them apart very quickly, the accents are very distinct and the people do act different

Tony EH

ShyMets wrote: »

I worked with a Dutch guys year. One day I asked him how most Dutch people seem to be almost fluent in English. He answered "Well why the fu*k would anybody learn Dutch".

I thought fair point

Well, he's correct. English is an international language. Dutch isn't.

But it's one of the things that's made the Irish really lazy/poor at learning other languages, in that we've had it too easy with our use of English.

Frankly, it's a thing we can be thankful to the English for. :pac: Because if Irish was our first language, we'd still be a backwater.

ffarrell7

Dutch is a poor language. They are so embarrassed about it and have such a complex that they would prefer to speak English than Dutch.

And no, Germans cannot understand spoken Dutch..... That is rubbish. Just like I cannot understand Scots Gallic.....very similar in the written format thiugh.... But it ends there.

Bretons cannot understand spoken Welsh and Dutch people understand very little of Afrikans. Too far removed now.

The Brits can thank the French for the bulk of their language as so much of their vocabulary has come from them. 1066 French invasion of Britain made sure of that.

Of course they live to forget that the French dominated them for a couple of hundred years both linguistically and culturally.

99% of words ending in - ion in English are pure French.

German is a major European language but it ends there. It is not an international language and never will be.

French on the other hand is spoken more as a first and second language in Africa than it is in France and Belgium put together. The amount of French speakers is exploding upwards. The RDC has a population alone of nearly 200 million....

So in my opinion the three most useful languages to learn and which compliment each other by their linguistic proximity are English, French and Spanish.

Chinese will never ever take off. Too complex for a start. Not going to happen.

ffarrell7

Tony EH wrote: »

Well, he's correct. English is an international language. Dutch isn't.

But it's one of the things that's made the Irish really lazy/poor at learning other languages, in that we've had it too easy with our use of English.

Frankly, it's a thing we can be thankful to the English for. :pac: Because if Irish was our first language, we'd still be a backwater.

Irish is a very rich language. Despite what I say about Dutch, it is a very prosperous country so language doesn't come into it. Same for Norwegian, Danish, Swedish etc

Wealthy countries who speak their own language as a first language and then learn other ones like English, German French etc and speak them well unlike Paddy!!

dxhound2005

ffarrell7 wrote: »

Bretons cannot understand spoken Welsh and Dutch people understand very little of Afrikans. Too far removed now.

Removal in time and distance has not changed English to the extent that very little of it is understood among English people when confronted with the American or Australian versions. Why would that happen with Dutch?

humberklog

To my ear the Dutch language sounds like the word Orange being spoken by a yo-yo.

I found it handy to read the TV guide for example and understand the gist of the programme that was coming up when I briefly lived there.

bigar

ffarrell7 wrote: »

Dutch is a poor language. They are so embarrassed about it and have such a complex that they would prefer to speak English than Dutch.

Quite a generalisation there and it definitely does not apply to the Dutch speaking parts of Belgium. As a Dutch speaker, from Belgium, I find it a very rich language. Most Dutch (people from The Netherlands) do not think so, that is true.

English is just an easy language to learn so many Dutch speakers do speak it too. It is after all the world's lingua franca.

ffarrell7

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Removal in time and distance has not changed English to the extent that very little of it is understood among English people when confronted with the American or Australian versions. Why would that happen with Dutch?

There was little if any contact from the 17th century onwards between the Netherlands and South Africa. One of the reasons the languages especially the pronunciation and accent went their separate ways. The indigenous languages of SA also changed and distorted Afrikaans.

A bit like French in Canada although I still understand it pretty well when spoken as standard French.

PTH2009

jojofizzio wrote: »

Found the Dutch exceptionally friendly when we were in Amsterdam...struck up conversation with us without any prompting....wasn’t expecting it tbh

Probably baked out of there skulls

McGinniesta

Pass the dutchie on the left hand side

Tony EH

PTH2009 wrote: »

Probably baked out of there skulls

It's more of a foreign thing that. Most Dutch don't bother with it. At least that was my experience in Amsterdam, and outside of that city they kinda view the drug thing there with a bit of a sneer.

Amsterdam is odd though. It's unlike anywhere else I've been in Holland. Head up to Rotterdam and it's like a different country.

suicide_circus

ffarrell7 wrote: »

Dutch is a poor language. They are so embarrassed about it and have such a complex that they would prefer to speak English than Dutch.

What do you mean "poor"? They certain seem to speak a lot of dutch without shame any time i'm there

suicide_circus

PTH2009 wrote: »

Would Dutch people be Germanic ?

Germans, Swiss and Austrians are very similar and can be hard to disguise

There are massive regional differences in dialect. Someone from Northern Germany would have difficulties understanding someone from rural south Austria unless that person made the effort to speak in Hochdeutsch

AllForIt

ffarrell7 wrote: »

Irish is a very rich language. !

What does that mean?

Jim2007

Tony EH wrote: »

Frankly, it's a thing we can be thankful to the English for. :pac: Because if Irish was our first language, we'd still be a backwater.

Rubbish, we’d have learned to use English just like every other small Western Europe country and prospered the same as we did.

JupiterKid

ffarrell7 wrote: »

Dutch is a poor language. They are so embarrassed about it and have such a complex that they would prefer to speak English than Dutch.

And no, Germans cannot understand spoken Dutch..... That is rubbish. Just like I cannot understand Scots Gallic.....very similar in the written format thiugh.... But it ends there.

Bretons cannot understand spoken Welsh and Dutch people understand very little of Afrikans. Too far removed now.

The Brits can thank the French for the bulk of their language as so much of their vocabulary has come from them. 1066 French invasion of Britain made sure of that.

Of course they live to forget that the French dominated them for a couple of hundred years both linguistically and culturally.

99% of words ending in - ion in English are pure French.

German is a major European language but it ends there. It is not an international language and never will be.

French on the other hand is spoken more as a first and second language in Africa than it is in France and Belgium put together. The amount of French speakers is exploding upwards. The RDC has a population alone of nearly 200 million....

So in my opinion the three most useful languages to learn and which compliment each other by their linguistic proximity are English, French and Spanish.

Chinese will never ever take off. Too complex for a start. Not going to happen.

Can you verify that the Dutch are so ashamed of their own language that they won’t speak it? Funny, because any time I’m over in the Netherlands (usually once a year) the Dutch seem to use their own language all the time.

The opening statement in your post borders on insulting and offensive.

Thelonious Monk

If you listen to the English language here, spoken like they believe it was spoken 500 years ago, it sounds very much like dutch

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCckcTHWqKw

suicide_circus

Jim2007 wrote: »

Rubbish, we’d have learned to use English just like every other small Western Europe country and prospered the same as we did.

Ah now, 800 years and all that but i wouldnt deny our familiarity with english has been very beneficial

Jim2007

ffarrell7 wrote: »

Wealthy countries who speak their own language as a first language and then learn other ones like English, German French etc and speak them well unlike Paddy!!

Most Irish people I know living in Europe on a permanent basis speak the local languages with competence.

sonofenoch

Dr. Bre wrote: »

Yesh....

Dish......in dish moment

PTH2009

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

If you listen to the English language here, spoken like they believe it was spoken 500 years ago, it sounds very much like dutch

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCckcTHWqKw

I have a soft spot of Medieval customs