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What exactly is happening with AstraZeneca?

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Comments

  • #2042
    micosoft
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,368 ✭✭✭micosoft


    brickster69 wrote: »
    A UK minister made a statement on Sunday saying that British engineers were sent to the plant in question to fix capacity issues a month earlier. So you would imagine issues were known before then at least on one side.

    No way to know if the Minister is telling the truth or no way to know if AZ or the sub contractors had informed the EU about production problems.

    Bad form if neither of them did not though. Bad form also if they were informed of issues earlier and the EU did not report it.

    Objectively does this sound likely? A British minister sent a British Engineer in to fix the problem? We aren't talking about a Gas Boiler which needs someone from Bord Gais to go an knock a spanner to fix it. AZ know their processes & pharma process engineering is highly specialised and it's unlikely the British Government has any engineer capacity with knowledge in this space nor the slightly racist undertone of "a British engineer".

    But it does bring up one fact and one question....
    1. The UK got vaccines from Belgium while they had those teething problems.
    2. Why did AZ withhold this information from the EU but shared it with UK?


  • #2043
    runawaybishop
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,534 ✭✭✭runawaybishop


    drunkmonkey wrote: »
    It is and it isn't they'll use that data to put off the second jab as recommend. I'd feel a lot happier it they stuck to the plan. Cutting the chance of transmitting it by only 60% aren't great odds, no restrictions can be lifted.

    Are you sure you aren't confusing efficiency and transmission? This is the first lump of confirmed data on transmission rates. Its huge news.


  • #2044
    is_that_so
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,132 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    IRISHSPORTSGUY wrote: »
    Do we know if it'll take days to get into the country and set up or do vaccinations start on the 8th?
    It may not matter as they've advised to give Group 3 Moderna or Pfizer. I guess it will be used for other groups.


  • #2045
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 232 ✭✭ [Deleted User]


    drunkmonkey wrote: »
    It is and it isn't they'll use that data to put off the second jab as recommend. I'd feel a lot happier it they stuck to the plan. Cutting the chance of transmitting it by only 60% aren't great odds, no restrictions can be lifted.

    Restrictions are never going to be lifted anyway. No government which gives itself controls over every aspect of its citizens' lives voluntarily gives up that control. No government which gives itself the right to sideline the elected Dáil and rule by decree ever gives that right up.


  • #2046
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 6,045 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    jackboy wrote: »
    The EU need to up their game. When you are making Arlene Foster and the Russians look good it’s time to take a serious look in the mirror.

    Reading back through this thread, when I happened upon this beauty of a post.

    Yeah, Arlene looks great, alright.

    541913.PNG


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  • #2047
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 6,045 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    b0nk1e wrote: »
    Restrictions are never going to be lifted anyway. No government which gives itself controls over every aspect of its citizens' lives voluntarily gives up that control. No government which gives itself the right to sideline the elected Dáil and rule by decree ever gives that right up.

    Conspiracy theories forum is thataway, pal.


  • #2048
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 232 ✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Conspiracy theories forum is thataway, pal.

    Conspiracy theory n. Something I disagree with.


  • #2049
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 6,045 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Conspiracy theory n. : A bunch of bullsh1t, concocted by people too gullible to not swallow the kinda crap being peddled by Alex Jones while simultaneously telling everyone else not to believe what they read.

    We get it, the world is a big bad scary place and it can be comforting to think that there's some nefarious group of people pulling the strings in the background to stack the odds against you. It's much easier to countenance that versus the actual reality of the situation: nobody is in control of every facet of your life but you.

    You are the master of your own destiny. Only you can make the changes necessary to provide comfort and security. Even then, with the best will in the world, sometimes fate and happenstance combine to give you the existential equivalent of a boot in the balls. That's not Bill Gates, or the Illuminati, or the gay chemtrail frogs trying to fcuk you over. It's just tough sh1t.


  • #2050
    brickster69
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,952 ✭✭✭brickster69


    mick087 wrote: »
    Roll out of vaccines has started.
    6 months time most if not all in Ireland and many other countries will be done.

    Hopefully the poorer countries will not have to wait to long.

    India ramping up AZ all over

    https://www.gavi.org/sites/default/files/covid/covax/COVAX-Interim-Distribution-Forecast.pdf

    “Wars begin when you want them to, but they don’t end when you ask them to.”- Niccolò Machiavelli



  • #2051
    brickster69
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,952 ✭✭✭brickster69


    Some news coming out about the inspection on AZ's EU plant


    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/jan/31/france-germany-threaten-covid-astrazeneca-vaccine-shortageeu-uk

    “Wars begin when you want them to, but they don’t end when you ask them to.”- Niccolò Machiavelli



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  • #2052
    ShineOn7
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,550 ✭✭✭ShineOn7


    Another country that aren't crazy about the AZ vax


    https://twitter.com/rtenews/status/1356995656964075524


  • #2053
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,853 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    brickster69 wrote: »
    Some news coming out about the inspection on AZ's EU plant


    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/jan/31/france-germany-threaten-covid-astrazeneca-vaccine-shortageeu-uk

    France threatening legal action over a vaccine their president thinks is a load of Shiite?


  • #2054
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 6,045 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    ShineOn7 wrote: »
    Another country that aren't crazy about the AZ vax

    Interesting. Might be a blessing in disguise that we're not getting what we ordered from them, depending on how this turns out.

    Watch all the wannabe Tories and Trump acolytes come crawling out of the woodwork, now, claiming that this is all a ruse by the EU to downplay their culpability in the fiasco surrounding the supply issues.

    Here, lads, I'll save you the embarrassment by pointing out pre-emptively that Switzerland is not in the EU.

    You're welcome.


  • #2055
    is_that_so
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,132 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    brickster69 wrote: »
    India ramping up AZ all over

    https://www.gavi.org/sites/default/files/covid/covax/COVAX-Interim-Distribution-Forecast.pdf
    The Serum Institute of India (SII) has a licence to produce at least 1bn doses and India are stockpiling it.


  • #2056
    brickster69
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,952 ✭✭✭brickster69


    is_that_so wrote: »
    The Serum Institute of India (SII) has a licence to produce at least 1bn doses and India are stockpiling it.

    Unicef got an order in for 1.1 billion yesterday for AZ / Novavax. Probably for 2022.

    https://cnnphilippines.com/world/2021/2/4/UNICEF-announces-deal-for-1.1-billion-vaccine-doses-for-world-s-poorest-countries.html?fbclid=lwAR2

    “Wars begin when you want them to, but they don’t end when you ask them to.”- Niccolò Machiavelli



  • #2057
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,146 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    ShineOn7 wrote: »
    Another country that aren't crazy about the AZ vax


    https://twitter.com/rtenews/status/1356995656964075524

    It's not any concerns about the vaccines, it's just an extreme case of ass covering. The trials that were run in the various countries for AZ didn't include many people over 55 just because they are harder to recruit, presumably you have to go through a bunch of health checks before recruiting someone and the older a volunteer is the more likely they are to have some other condition already which could screw up the trial results.

    There being a bit of a rush on to get vaccines tested they didn't worry about the number of older volunteers as much. The UK looked at the trial data and thought "screw it, just stick it in people's arms, what's the worst that can happen?", other countries have delayed a bit on authorisation for over 50 or wherever they decide to draw their line.

    Give it a month and there will be plenty of data from the "trial" being done in the UK on their older population.

    Same reason that none of the vaccines are authorised for children, because they didn't go through the testing in the trials. Not that there is any reason to think it's unsafe for kids.


  • #2058
    astrofool
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 17,750 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    robinph wrote: »
    It's not any concerns about the vaccines, it's just an extreme case of ass covering. The trials that were run in the various countries for AZ didn't include many people over 55 just because they are harder to recruit, presumably you have to go through a bunch of health checks before recruiting someone and the older a volunteer is the more likely they are to have some other condition already which could screw up the trial results.

    There being a bit of a rush on to get vaccines tested they didn't worry about the number of older volunteers as much. The UK looked at the trial data and thought "screw it, just stick it in people's arms, what's the worst that can happen?", other countries have delayed a bit on authorisation for over 50 or wherever they decide to draw their line.

    Give it a month and there will be plenty of data from the "trial" being done in the UK on their older population.

    Same reason that none of the vaccines are authorised for children, because they didn't go through the testing in the trials. Not that there is any reason to think it's unsafe for kids.

    It's not ass covering, it's effectiveness, the vacci e is safe, so the worry is nothing to do with injecting it, the worry is that people with lower immune responses don't generate enough antibodies effective against the virus to prevent the disease, whereas the mRNA vaccine produces a very strong response in all age groups, hence the AZ vaccine being more suitable for those with stronger immune systems (which incidentally are those at least risk from disease, the vaccine should significantly reduce symptoms and transmission in this group).

    The UK is effectively running a big experiment for us, whose results may end up overshadowed by the J&J vaccine anyway.


  • #2059
    Ficheall
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 9,056 ✭✭✭Ficheall


    robinph wrote: »
    Same reason that none of the vaccines are authorised for children, because they didn't go through the testing in the trials. Not that there is any reason to think it's unsafe for kids.
    The disease's effect on kids is minimal though, and so the risk of being wrong is much lower. Presumably in other vaccines for diseases affecting children they also test some children (I don't know, not my field)?


  • #2060
    Pete_Cavan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,556 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    robinph wrote: »
    Give it a month and there will be plenty of data from the "trial" being done in the UK on their older population.

    Same reason that none of the vaccines are authorised for children, because they didn't go through the testing in the trials. Not that there is any reason to think it's unsafe for kids.

    Yes, thoughts will change if there is data available and assuming that data supports a new position. It is not unreasonable however that authorities are not coming to conclusions for which there currently isn't data to support.


  • #2061
    McGiver
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,995 ✭✭✭McGiver


    Deleted User wrote:
    Positive news to be published in the Lancet after peer review
    Not really. The methodological issues and errors they made remain to be the issue.
    However, Azra Ghani, professor of infectious disease epidemiology at Imperial College London, urged caution over the results. She pointed out that the trial was not designed to assess different dosing gaps or vaccine efficacy at one versus two doses. This means the participants were not randomised and that other factors could explain the findings.

    For example, those who received the single dose were younger and more likely to be female, and more likely to be healthcare workers, and more likely to be white, than those who received two shots. “This means that it is not sensible to compare the efficacy estimates from a single dose with those from two doses,†she said. A further trial, looking specifically at different dosing schedules, was needed to know the answer for sure, she added.


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  • #2062
    mick087
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,123 ✭✭✭mick087


    astrofool wrote: »
    It's not ass covering, it's effectiveness, the vacci e is safe, so the worry is nothing to do with injecting it, the worry is that people with lower immune responses don't generate enough antibodies effective against the virus to prevent the disease, whereas the mRNA vaccine produces a very strong response in all age groups, hence the AZ vaccine being more suitable for those with stronger immune systems (which incidentally are those at least risk from disease, the vaccine should significantly reduce symptoms and transmission in this group).

    The UK is effectively running a big experiment for us, whose results may end up overshadowed by the J&J vaccine anyway.

    Stop scare mongering. Stop making it political.

    This is about saving lives.
    What i believe is this Oxford vaccine today at this moment in time is the way forward. Its cheap and easy to store.

    If i was offered the Oxford vaccine today i would take it.


  • #2063
    McGiver
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,995 ✭✭✭McGiver


    mick087 wrote:
    This is about saving lives. What i believe is this Oxford vaccine today at this moment in time is the way forward. Its cheap and easy to store.
    No, it's not.

    The AZ vaccine may be cheaper but that's all.

    It wasn't intended to be the core element of the EU portfolio. Never was. You are trying to make AZ as something we rely on and will save us - it is not and never was.

    With Pfizer ramping up and J&J coming up soon as well, importance of AZ rapidly diminishes.

    J&J is sold at cost, single dose, >66% efficacy, doesn't need deep freeze storage.

    EMA has been reviewing J&J data since early December, authorisation application is expected this month and first deliveries in April.


  • #2064
    is_that_so
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,132 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    mick087 wrote: »
    Stop scare mongering. Stop making it political.

    This is about saving lives.
    What i believe is this Oxford vaccine today at this moment in time is the way forward. Its cheap and easy to store.

    If i was offered the Oxford vaccine today i would take it.
    AZ has been flagged as the the primary option for most of the population. The choice not to give it to older groups is because of the low numbers in the trials. The over 70s account for about 500K people and there are clearer supply line guarantees to do that starting on Monday week.


  • #2065
    micosoft
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,368 ✭✭✭micosoft


    mick087 wrote: »
    Stop scare mongering. Stop making it political.

    This is about saving lives.
    What i believe is this Oxford vaccine today at this moment in time is the way forward. Its cheap and easy to store.

    If i was offered the Oxford vaccine today i would take it.

    You respond to a factual and unemotional science based analysis with a "belief based" view of vaccines. No thanks.


  • #2066
    micosoft
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,368 ✭✭✭micosoft


    robinph wrote: »
    It's not any concerns about the vaccines, it's just an extreme case of ass covering.

    It's a fine line between ass covering and patient safety. Given the rise of Vaccine hesitancy playing roulette as the UK government may be unwise. Boris may be lucky or may not be but a lot of folk counting chickens today. Switzerland may be small but hardly inexperienced with pharmaceuticals.


  • #2067
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,146 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    micosoft wrote: »
    It's a fine line between ass covering and patient safety. Given the rise of Vaccine hesitancy playing roulette as the UK government may be unwise. Boris may be lucky or may not be but a lot of folk counting chickens today. Switzerland may be small but hardly inexperienced with pharmaceuticals.

    True, but I don't think repeated messaging out from various national regulators saying it's not safe for group X is going to help with countering anti vaxers (even though that isn't what they are saying, just that they want more data first before approving). Could do with the more responsible sections of the media not generating the clickbaity headlines quite so much.

    Change the headlines from "Country X refuses to use vaccine Y in group Z" to "Country X approves vaccine Y", then stick the details in about it being approved or not for group Z in the middle of the article where the anti vaxxers won't read because they will have got bored of reading by then.


  • #2068
    take everything
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,879 ✭✭✭take everything


    robinph wrote: »
    True, but I don't think repeated messaging out from various national regulators saying it's not safe for group X is going to help with countering anti vaxers (even though that isn't what they are saying, just that they want more data first before approving). Could do with the more responsible sections of the media not generating the clickbaity headlines quite so much.

    Change the headlines from "Country X refuses to use vaccine Y in group Z" to "Country X approves vaccine Y", then stick the details in about it being approved or not for group Z in the middle of the article where the anti vaxxers won't read because they will have got bored of reading by then.

    Aren't the decisions related to the efficacy and not the safety of this vaccine.
    The anti vaccination crowd are always concerned with side effects, not efficacy.


  • #2069
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,146 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    take everything wrote: »
    Aren't the decisions related to the efficacy and not the safety of this vaccine.
    The anti vaccination crowd are always concerned with side effects, not efficacy.

    They won't read past the headline, so doesn't matter on the actual reasons for a vaccine being approved or not. Well, they might do a quick search for ingredients and then decide that the vaccine is made from dead babies fed on mercury extracted from aliens or something.


  • #2070
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,853 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    micosoft wrote: »
    It's a fine line between ass covering and patient safety. Given the rise of Vaccine hesitancy playing roulette as the UK government may be unwise. Boris may be lucky or may not be but a lot of folk counting chickens today. Switzerland may be small but hardly inexperienced with pharmaceuticals.

    who is paying roulette?

    There is zero suggestion that the astra Zeneca vaccine is anything but safe. As safe, if not safer than the Pfizer one.


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  • #2071
    take everything
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,879 ✭✭✭take everything


    robinph wrote: »
    They won't read past the headline, so doesn't matter on the actual reasons for a vaccine being approved or not. Well, they might do a quick search for ingredients and then decide that the vaccine is made from dead babies fed on mercury extracted from aliens or something.

    I'm happy with a headline or journalist saying a vaccine wasn't approved in a group because theres no evidence it is efficacious in that age group tbh. In fact I was unhappy that this was not being properly explored by journalists until very recently.

    What headlines are pandering to antivax sentiment in the case of AZs efficacy

    I think the antivax thing is a separate issue tbh.


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