Minimum alcohol pricing is nigh

TK Lemon · 02-02-2021 09:35PM

KrustyUCC wrote: »

New EU rules may put paid to cheaper alcohol and cigarettes from overseas

THE EU is considering stopping Irish holidaymakers loading up on cheaper alcohol and cigarettes when they travel to other countries – with new rules that would also affect trips to Northern Ireland.

Ireland is one of the most expensive places in the EU to buy alcohol and cigarettes, due to high excise duties.

In a public consultation launched yesterday, the EU suggested holidaymakers should pay excise duties at home rates rather than where they buy products.

Ireland’s wine prices are the highest in the EU. The country is second-highest for spirits prices (after Sweden) and third-highest for beer (after Finland and Denmark).

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/new-eu-rules-may-put-paid-to-cheaper-alcohol-and-cigarettes-from-overseas-40039910.html

You would hope that the media might repeat the statistics about wine prices, spirits or beers to Eunan McKinney the next time he's advocating about 'cheap alcohol' in this country

That's unlikely though

Will this apply only to Ireland? Surely that's a gross violation of several EU treaties. Or will it apply equally to Finns in Spain as it would to Irish in Slovakia? In which case it should be ok as it's being uniformly applied to all EU citizens everywhere.

How can this be implemented btw? What if I stock up my car on French champagne? Just because I have an Irish passport doesn't mean I live there.

I could easily be dual Irish Spanish citizen living in Belgium. Sounds unenforceable.

elperello · 02-02-2021 10:20PM

On a quick read of that article it seems that you would be required to pay the difference between the duty in the country you made the purchase in and your country of residence.

I'm guessing that it would be up to the customs in your country of residence to collect what is due.

Something like VRT on vehicles.

So much for the Single Market.

I'm sure more information will come out as time passes.

Suckit · 02-02-2021 10:48PM

It would mean that they would have to check every vehicle coming in, or expect everyone to declare it.

I for one look for forward to this new black market they are creating and see what criminals can grow from it.. :pac:

Thelonious Monk · 02-02-2021 11:13PM

I bring home 10 amber leaf 50g packets every year from Spain and it does me pretty much for a year and I give some away. I think they're about 7.50 each and it's more than 3 times the price here.
Even if they start charging excise duty I'd probably just take them anyway and hope they don't stop me.
They really seem determined to screw us on alcohol though.

Notdeco · 02-02-2021 11:18PM

elperello wrote: »

On a quick read of that article it seems that you would be required to pay the difference between the duty in the country you made the purchase in and your country of residence.

I'm guessing that it would be up to the customs in your country of residence to collect what is due.

Something like VRT on vehicles.

So much for the Single Market.

I'm sure more information will come out as time passes.

More likely they are looking at the US model. You pay the seller, seller pays the state. Or in this case the country.

elperello · 02-02-2021 11:32PM

Notdeco wrote: »

More likely they are looking at the US model. You pay the seller, seller pays the state. Or in this case the country.

It's cross border shopping they seem to be targeting.

Hard to see how they could expect a retailer in say France to charge different prices to visitors and remit tax to another country.

Atlantic Dawn · 02-02-2021 11:41PM

Notdeco wrote: »

More likely they are looking at the US model. You pay the seller, seller pays the state. Or in this case the country.

What would stop you from getting some local in the country you are visiting to buy the goods on your behalf and you bring them back to Ireland? If they start charging people on return to Ireland we might as well leave the EU as we would be getting a half arsed free movement of goods deal.

Alcohol and tobacco should be a taxed at a fixed rate across the entire EU so health policies can be properly measured, that or have it based pro rate as a % of the minimum wage.

Suckit · 02-02-2021 11:46PM

Can't see them charging any other countries for buying alcohol or tobacco in another country and bringing it in. This seems very targeted.
I can't imagine it happens too often that a French, German, Italian or Spanish citizen crosses borders to purchase either, but it might happen in smaller numbers.
Are they all going to have to declare duty on whatever they bring back above a certain price? (assuming they are going to put a price limit on it).
It already seems like the only place to get duty free alcohol is going to be the countries in Europe that aren't in the EU... :

Atlantic Dawn · 02-02-2021 11:52PM

Suckit wrote: »

It already seems like the only place to get duty free alcohol is going to be the countries in Europe that aren't in the EU... :

Spain is actually very cheap, a lot of alcohol sold in supermarkets there is actually cheaper than duty free price at Dublin airport, Smirnoff for an example is €12.55 a litre in the Supermarket...
https://www.carrefour.es/supermercado/vodka-smirnoff-1-l-smirnoff/R-538002112/p

Jameson from this parish only €22.30 a litre...
https://www.carrefour.es/supermercado/whisky-jameson-irlandes-1-l-jameson/R-590213125/p

You can currently without any explanation needed bring back 10 litres of spirits back in to Ireland from any EU state...
https://www.revenue.ie/en/importing-vehicles-duty-free-allowances/customs-information-for-travelling-and-duty-free-allowances/travelling-from-within-the-eu/duty-paid-and-tax-paid-goods.aspx

Suckit · 03-02-2021 12:08AM

I mean if that law is brought in.
It won't matter the price it is in other Countries, we will have to pay tax on it to equal the prices here, unless we buy it outside the EU in a duty free retailer.

Hotblack Desiato · 03-02-2021 01:12PM

Suckit wrote: »

It would mean that they would have to check every vehicle coming in, or expect everyone to declare it.

I for one look for forward to this new black market they are creating and see what criminals can grow from it.. :pac:

Totally unfair on Ireland as we have no land border with another EU state. Much easier to enforce when your only options are air and sea travel :mad:

Shelflife · 03-02-2021 03:14PM

The problem atm is that you are allowed to bring back as many cigarettes as you like from an EU country as long as they are for personal use.

So you can bring in as much as you want with virtual impunity.

These then end up being sold to friends for half the price that they are in Ireland .

This means that the Irish exchequer gets nothing in vat and excise, loses out on the tax on profits made by those handling legitimate sales in Ireland and the income tax on their employees pay.

On top of that the Irish health system has to fund the cost of the inevitable sickness that will come as a result of this.

Something needs to change to stop this .

elperello · 03-02-2021 05:44PM

https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/travel/carry/alcohol-tobacco-cash/index_en.htm#:~:text=These%20maximum%20amounts%20must%20be,200%20cigars

According to this link all they have to do is enforce the existing rules.

Suckit · 03-02-2021 08:13PM

elperello wrote: »

https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/travel/carry/alcohol-tobacco-cash/index_en.htm#:~:text=These%20maximum%20amounts%20must%20be,200%20cigars

According to this link all they have to do is enforce the existing rules.

I don't think so.

As a private individual, there are no limits on what you can buy and take with you when travelling between EU countries as long as the products purchased are for your own use and not for resale. Taxes (VAT and excise) are included in the price of the product in the country where you bought it, so no further payments are due in any other EU country.
However, to determine if the products you have bought are for your own use, EU customs authorities can look at several different elements such as, if you own or work for a commercial business, how the goods are packaged and transported etc. They will also look at the quantity of products you are travelling with.
Warning

Be aware that each EU country can decide on a maximum amount of tobacco products and alcoholic beverages that you can bring into the country. These maximum amounts must be at least:

800 cigarettes

400 cigarillos (cigars weighing maximum 3 grams each)

200 cigars

1 kg of tobacco

10 litres of spirits

20 litres of fortified wine

90 litres of wine (including a maximum of 60 litres of sparkling wines)

110 litres of beer

There is nothing there that I can see, to reinforce.
They could lower the amount of each Country down to the figures above, but even that would be a decent amount if stocking up.
There is nothing about any hidden option to impose duty on other EU members for no valid reason.
I can't imagine it will happen for too many reasons.

elperello · 03-02-2021 09:46PM

Suckit wrote: »

I don't think so.

There is nothing there that I can see, to reinforce.
They could lower the amount of each Country down to the figures above, but even that would be a decent amount if stocking up.
There is nothing about any hidden option to impose duty on other EU members for no valid reason.
I can't imagine it will happen for too many reasons.

As I see it these upper limits only apply to people with vehicles and the vast majority of Irish residents don't make visits to EU countries with vehicles.

Even if the small proportion who do all brought in the full allowance on each trip they make it would be a tiny fraction of the total market.

So, if they enforced the current limits the loss in revenue would be small in comparative terms.

People travelling by air cannot bring bottles bought in the departure country
due to security restrictions and are therefore limited to 4 cartons of cigarettes which is only 40 days supply for a 20 a day smoker.

I hope you are right and it never happens.

Suckit · 03-02-2021 11:16PM

But it shouldn't matter how many people are bringing the legal amount as long as they aren't selling it, there shouldn't be any duty or tax to be paid on the amounts that they have set.
But they are saying now that might change.
I know a couple that drive to France every year (maybe twice) and stock up on wine. I can't see myself ever doing that, but if the MUP and any other possible shenanigans that they can dream up start to make a big enough difference that a trip to France or Spain might be worth it in the long run, I will be either making the trip myself or availing of the offers (is they still come) that I have got from others who go, to pick me up a couple of cases of beer and wine and maybe some spirits while they are there.
I could pay for it and pay them for their trouble and still save money.
If they could introduce this, they could introduce anything.

elperello · 03-02-2021 11:39PM

So they should leave well enough alone.

But they won't because they are always looking for solutions to non existent problems.

As you say the limits are ok and rule out commercial sellers as they are.

With the cost of ferries it would never make sense to go to France or Spain specially to get cheap booze so folk will only buy it if they are there anyway on holiday.

Our Government introduced VRT and are to introduce MUP and the EU said ok.

Hotblack Desiato · 05-02-2021 01:39AM

elperello wrote: »

People travelling by air cannot bring bottles bought in the departure country due to security restrictions and are therefore limited to 4 cartons of cigarettes which is only 40 days supply for a 20 a day smoker.

Cigarettes don't usually come in bottles... anyway there's nothing stopping you going to France or whereever and buying the full amounts and bringing them back, this is duty-paid tobacco and alcohol remember.

As for VRT we are not the only EU country with a registration tax, cars in Denmark cost way more than here

User142 · 15-02-2021 10:09PM

Fine Gael Senator Paddy Burke it could be introduced now “when travel to the North is limited. It shouldn’t be beyond the bounds of possibility for us in the South to introduce it.”

Source: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/fg-seanad-leader-backs-call-for-minimum-unit-pricing-on-alcohol-1.4485795?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

I am kind of stuck for words on this. Is he saying in essence this won't impact Irish retail because we have the population under house arrest so they can't avail of cheaper prices up North.

ShamNNspace · 15-02-2021 10:20PM

User142 wrote: »

I am kind of stuck for words on this. Is he saying in essence this won't impact Irish retail because we have the population under house arrest so they can't avail of cheaper prices up North.

Hes cute that fella and not in a good way, one to watch bit of a political bruiser

elperello · 15-02-2021 10:26PM

Crowe is from Galway. He was making a lot of noise trying to get the pubs open before Christmas so people could drink in a "safe controlled environment".

Burke was one of the Clifden Golfgate guys.

I'd say neither of them bother with trying to get a few cans at the right price.

We have enough to put up with at the moment without increasing the cost of drink.

Hotblack Desiato · 16-02-2021 03:15AM

Banning loyalty points/vouchers on alcohol was quite a large increase in the price of drink if you'd been playing your cards right before :mad:

ShamNNspace · 16-02-2021 10:01AM

So my 5 bottles of spaten for which I paid €10 for (5 for a tenner) are now €13in the local shop, I suppose those silly cowboy style saloon doors that have sprung up everywhere have to be paid for. A nonsense that achieved nothing apart from rising the prices for the ordinary punter and this is only the start, by a bunch of die-hard po-faced joyless prohibitionistas

16-02-2021 10:45AM

ShamNNspace wrote: »

So my 5 bottles of spaten for which I paid €10 for (5 for a tenner) are now €13in the local shop, I suppose those silly cowboy style saloon doors that have sprung up everywhere have to be paid for. A nonsense that achieved nothing apart from rising the prices for the ordinary punter and this is only the start, by a bunch of die-hard po-faced joyless prohibitionistas

Saloon style doors which everyone in the shop has to touch in someway to open. During a pandemic. Well done government.

16-02-2021 10:54AM

User142 wrote: »

I am kind of stuck for words on this. Is he saying in essence this won't impact Irish retail because we have the population under house arrest so they can't avail of cheaper prices up North.

Thats exactly what he's saying.

The funny thing is, if you want to see non-compliance on a massive scale, bring this in now. Everyone in the country will obtain a sick aunty Mary in Derry.

listermint · 16-02-2021 11:13AM

ShamNNspace wrote: »

So my 5 bottles of spaten for which I paid €10 for (5 for a tenner) are now €13in the local shop, I suppose those silly cowboy style saloon doors that have sprung up everywhere have to be paid for. A nonsense that achieved nothing apart from rising the prices for the ordinary punter and this is only the start, by a bunch of die-hard po-faced joyless prohibitionistas

But there were many zealots in this very thread who said the price of premium alcohol would remain unchanged . Sure it was only ever the bargain basement stuff that would be impacted by these updates.....

Nothing to worry about... Only poor drunk people will be effected etc etc etc etc etc

Hotblack Desiato · 16-02-2021 11:30AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Saloon style doors which everyone in the shop has to touch in someway to open. During a pandemic. Well done government.

Elbow or trolley for the win - what's annoying is when someone thinks they're doing you a favour holding it open for you. No you're not, now get your two metres please! :rolleyes:

My local Lidl has automatic doors! They keep opening the whole time because they're too close to the checkout.

The doors (or the previous 'booze burka' stroke of 'genius') are an utterly stupid idea but this is Dail Eireann we are talking about here

Thelonious Monk · 16-02-2021 12:44PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Thats exactly what he's saying.

The funny thing is, if you want to see non-compliance on a massive scale, bring this in now. Everyone in the country will obtain a sick aunty Mary in Derry.

The sad thing is that wouldn't happen. We'll just pay it anyway. And those of us who are disgruntled wont have anyone to vote for who is opposed to these measures as every single member of the Oireachtas is in agreement with the measures. I mean they may as well double the price, what would we do about it in Ireland? Nothing. Sigh.

16-02-2021 01:09PM

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

The sad thing is that wouldn't happen. We'll just pay it anyway. And those of us who are disgruntled wont have anyone to vote for who is opposed to these measures as every single member of the Oireachtas is in agreement with the measures. I mean they may as well double the price, what would we do about it in Ireland? Nothing. Sigh.

Prices between here and northern ireland are currently close enough together that the saving doesn't cover the petrol to go north. Once prices go up significantly there will be an exodus to the north. About a decade ago when the price difference was much bigger the car parks in Newry were half full of South registered cars.

KrustyUCC · 16-02-2021 02:12PM

User142 wrote: »

I am kind of stuck for words on this. Is he saying in essence this won't impact Irish retail because we have the population under house arrest so they can't avail of cheaper prices up North.

"Mr Crowe pointed to Scotland which introduced minimum unit pricing two years ago and in that time “the rate of consumption has been at its lowest in 25 years. More importantly, the number of hospital admissions for liver disease among the lowest income groups has been significantly reduced."

Mr Crowe must have missed the increase in drug use in Scotland since MUP came in

Funny politicians

Keep us locked up for months on end and nowhere to go but now they want to increase the cost of alcohol again

I can't see an increasingly unpopular government going on a solo run withy this during the pandemic

Minimum alcohol pricing is nigh

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