Minimum alcohol pricing is nigh

weldoninhio · 21-01-2021 06:24PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The place where it is said to have worked is Scotland. However alcohol there is considerably cheaper than here.

For example, 700ml of Bells in Tesco here is 22 euro. In tesco UK, it is £13.75 which based on today exchange rate is 15.46 euro. A difference of 6.54.

What’s happened to Scotland’s deaths by drugs since MUP came in??

https://www.sundaypost.com/fp/warning-that-minimum-alcohol-pricing-is-driving-drinkers-to-drugs/

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-48938509

the_syco · 21-01-2021 08:15PM

weldoninhio wrote: »

What’s happened to Scotland’s deaths by drugs since MUP came in??

https://www.sundaypost.com/fp/warning-that-minimum-alcohol-pricing-is-driving-drinkers-to-drugs/

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-48938509

Drugs aren't affected by the minimum price. They are being affected by the raids during COVID, so if MUP coming in, and COVID going out happens at the same time, the drug dealers will experience a massive growth in profit.

I wonder would people start selling illegal cheap drink?

Darc19 · 21-01-2021 09:29PM

I disagree, the "drinking problems" are myths from the government.

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

How about this:

Litre of Jameson 15 euro in the Canaries, normal price not a discount or offer. 45 euro here.

The only European country with dearer alcohol than us is Finland.

Load of nonsense. How on earth can alcohol be worse for physical harm than tobacco?

Tobacco kills half of its users. That includes moderate and light users, too.

Sure, alcohol kills plenty of heavy users but the vast majority of people who use alcohol do not abuse it, suffer no health effects and arguably gain significant social and mental health benefits.

But sure let's punish everyone because of the actions of a few, it's the Irish way.

1L Jameson in Tenerife is at best €20 on offer (and at duty free shop which has 20% off the €24.80 reg price) but mostly €25. Here it's mostly €40-42 when not on offer.
Rose tinted glasses comes to mind.

But where your argument completely fails is the comparison to smoking.

Pay a visit to St Patrick's, or St. John of god's or Cluain mhuire. Ask the families of those attending rehab what harm alcohol does. Ask the management what the waiting list is like (6 months), listen to the stories at AA meetings (in every town in the country), the drinking of wages, the violence, the moods, the loss of jobs,

I could go on and on and on.

Yep, tobacco is harmful too. But in the hapenny place compared to alcohol

ohnonotgmail · 21-01-2021 09:30PM

Darc19 wrote: »

1L Jameson in Tenerife is at best €20 on offer (and at duty free shop which has 20% off the €24.80 reg price) but mostly €25. Here it's mostly €40-42 when not on offer.

But where your argument completely fails is the comparison to smoking.

Pay a visit to St Patrick's, or St. John of god's or Cluain mhuire. Ask the families of those attending rehab what harm alcohol does. Ask the management what the waiting list is like (6 months), listen to the stories at AA meetings (in every town in the country), the drinking of wages, the violence, the moods, the loss of jobs,

I could go on and on and on.

Yep, tobacco is harmful too. But in the hapenny place compared to alcohol

the point was that tobacco kills half of the people who use it. Does alcohol kill half of the people who use it?

Suckit · 22-01-2021 01:16AM

Introducing mup will not stop the harm alcohol does. It might transfer that harm to illegal drug trade or crime etc. for example if there is a profit to be made from importing cheap alcohol. But that is probably all.
This backwards way of thinking that the best way is to make something more difficult to get, doesn't usually work.

Mr. teddywinkles · 22-01-2021 10:33AM

Darc19 wrote: »

1L Jameson in Tenerife is at best €20 on offer (and at duty free shop which has 20% off the €24.80 reg price) but mostly €25. Here it's mostly €40-42 when not on offer.
Rose tinted glasses comes to mind.

But where your argument completely fails is the comparison to smoking.

Pay a visit to St Patrick's, or St. John of god's or Cluain mhuire. Ask the families of those attending rehab what harm alcohol does. Ask the management what the waiting list is like (6 months), listen to the stories at AA meetings (in every town in the country), the drinking of wages, the violence, the moods, the loss of jobs,

I could go on and on and on.

Yep, tobacco is harmful too. But in the hapenny place compared to alcohol

This has been asked 3billion times on here but I'll ask it again. Will prices affect these people's habits. No is the answer. No. A lot of that is social problems on top of abusing alcohol.

the_syco · 23-01-2021 10:09PM

Darc19 wrote: »

Pay a visit to St Patrick's, or St. John of god's or Cluain mhuire. Ask the families of those attending rehab what harm alcohol does. Ask the management what the waiting list is like (6 months), listen to the stories at AA meetings (in every town in the country), the drinking of wages, the violence, the moods, the loss of jobs,

I could go on and on and on.

Increasing the price just means that they'll drink the cheaper stuff, and other things won't be bought. I doubt it'll stop them drinking. But I'd wonder if there wasn't alcohol, would the people in St Pats, etc, just use another drug? It's easy to blame the alcohol, as opposed to the peoples issues.

Shelflife · 24-01-2021 12:30PM

Theres no doubt that we have a problem with alcohol in Ireland and that it needs to be addressed.

However the recent alcohol bill will do absolutely nothing to deal with it. Imposing a MUP and putting up those ridiculous barriers will have zero impact on problem drinking and will only annoy the vast majority of drinkers who dont have a problem.

We need to properly educate people how to drink sensibly in the first place, instead of de-normalising alcohol I believe we need to normalise it , make it an everyday product thats there to be enjoyed and not taken to excess.

Many years ago we were on a family holiday to the continent, we were in a restaurant/bar and a group of 19-21 yr olds came in, I told my then 13 and 15yr olds to watch them. The group all ordered their drinks and a plate of meats and cheeses and of the group of 8 only 2 ordered a second drink. They enjoyed their wine or beers they weren't horsing them down like a lot of the Irish youth of a similar age do.

I allowed my children to have a drink at home if they wanted, if they had friends over I allowed them to have a drink too after getting their parents permission. We encouraged them to enjoy the drink in front of them and not be worrying about the next one. I encouraged them not to get into large rounds when they go out and not to be afraid to opt out of the rounds if they felt they had enough.

My children are now 24 and 22, they enjoy having a drink and on the whole dont abuse it.

For me its all about education, the problem for many is that they "learn" to drink by throwing back a naggin of vodka before they head into the teenage disco and its downhill from there.

We have some of the most expensive alcohol in Europe and still have a drink problem so clearly putting the price up again isnt going to work. Hiding the demon drink behind a barrier isnt going to work either.

Education will work ! but thats a hard slog and a long road .......... so lets put the price up and throw in a few barriers !

Antares35 · 24-01-2021 04:03PM

odyssey06 wrote: »

Your post just drips with snobbery and ignorance.
You've idea what LIDL vodka tastes like in a cocktail, with LIDL vermouth say...
I have thoroughly enjoyed many discounted LIDL wines of the week.
And LIDL perlenbacher XXL.
All of which would be affected by MUP.

Some of the people pushing it are doing it for 'genuine' reasons, i.e. they think it will help the health situation. I disagree with them both on practical grounds and on grounds of freedom.

But many if not most of those pushing it are doing it purely for selfish reasons which are deserving only of contempt - the snobs, the vintners, the off licences and their stooges in the Dail and media.

We've a snobby aunt in the family, call her Mrs Bucket, and she would be like that about Lidl wine, despite the many awards that some of it has won. She raved about the white wine my parents served with dinner one day she was over, and was none too impressed when she found out where it was from

Antares35 · 24-01-2021 04:08PM

Darc19 wrote: »

1L Jameson in Tenerife is at best €20 on offer (and at duty free shop which has 20% off the €24.80 reg price) but mostly €25. Here it's mostly €40-42 when not on offer.
Rose tinted glasses comes to mind.

But where your argument completely fails is the comparison to smoking.

Pay a visit to St Patrick's, or St. John of god's or Cluain mhuire. Ask the families of those attending rehab what harm alcohol does. Ask the management what the waiting list is like (6 months), listen to the stories at AA meetings (in every town in the country), the drinking of wages, the violence, the moods, the loss of jobs,

I could go on and on and on.

Yep, tobacco is harmful too. But in the hapenny place compared to alcohol

With respect, those people are not addicts because of the price of alcohol.

weldoninhio · 24-01-2021 04:19PM

Shelflife wrote: »

Theres no doubt that we have a problem with alcohol in Ireland and that it needs to be addressed.

However the recent alcohol bill will do absolutely nothing to deal with it. Imposing a MUP and putting up those ridiculous barriers will have zero impact on problem drinking and will only annoy the vast majority of drinkers who dont have a problem.

We need to properly educate people how to drink sensibly in the first place, instead of de-normalising alcohol I believe we need to normalise it , make it an everyday product thats there to be enjoyed and not taken to excess.

Many years ago we were on a family holiday to the continent, we were in a restaurant/bar and a group of 19-21 yr olds came in, I told my then 13 and 15yr olds to watch them. The group all ordered their drinks and a plate of meats and cheeses and of the group of 8 only 2 ordered a second drink. They enjoyed their wine or beers they weren't horsing them down like a lot of the Irish youth of a similar age do.

I allowed my children to have a drink at home if they wanted, if they had friends over I allowed them to have a drink too after getting their parents permission. We encouraged them to enjoy the drink in front of them and not be worrying about the next one. I encouraged them not to get into large rounds when they go out and not to be afraid to opt out of the rounds if they felt they had enough.

My children are now 24 and 22, they enjoy having a drink and on the whole dont abuse it.

For me its all about education, the problem for many is that they "learn" to drink by throwing back a naggin of vodka before they head into the teenage disco and its downhill from there.

We have some of the most expensive alcohol in Europe and still have a drink problem so clearly putting the price up again isnt going to work. Hiding the demon drink behind a barrier isnt going to work either.

Education will work ! but thats a hard slog and a long road .......... so lets put the price up and throw in a few barriers !

We don’t have a drink problem though, we’ve a few problem drinkers, same as every country in the world. We are mid-lower table in Europe for alcohol consumed per capita and getting lower and lower every year. It’s an absolute myth that we are all raging alcoholics.

Hotblack Desiato · 26-01-2021 11:52AM

Darc19 wrote: »

1L Jameson in Tenerife is at best €20 on offer (and at duty free shop which has 20% off the €24.80 reg price) but mostly €25. Here it's mostly €40-42 when not on offer.
Rose tinted glasses comes to mind.

If you're buying in a duty free shop in the Canaries you don't have a clue about where to purchase good value alcohol. Bottle shops are cheaper than the duty free because duty free shops always profiteer and duty is so low there anyway. I've bought a litre of Jameson in Lanzarote (Spanish excise stamp on the top and all) for €15 plenty of times. Now VAT in the Canaries has gone up a bit since I was there last so it's probably €17 now.

Yep, tobacco is harmful too. But in the hapenny place compared to alcohol

Unless you can prove that alcohol kills half of all the non-teetotal population, like tobacco kills half of all of those who smoke (not just heavy smokers), you are talking complete and utter nonsense.

I'll wait...

Quackster · 26-01-2021 01:18PM

I disagree, the "drinking problems" are myths from the government.

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

If you're buying in a duty free shop in the Canaries you don't have a clue about where to purchase good value alcohol. Bottle shops are cheaper than the duty free because duty free shops always profiteer and duty is so low there anyway. I've bought a litre of Jameson in Lanzarote (Spanish excise stamp on the top and all) for €15 plenty of times. Now VAT in the Canaries has gone up a bit since I was there last so it's probably €17 now.

VAT on alcohol in the Canaries went up last year but, at 13.5%, it's still a lot less than Mainland Spain or Ireland (both 21%). Alcohol excise duty rates are also much lower (25% of the Mainland Spain rate for spirits).

Suckit · 26-01-2021 01:34PM

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

If you're buying in a duty free shop in the Canaries you don't have a clue about where to purchase good value alcohol. Bottle shops are cheaper than the duty free because duty free shops always profiteer and duty is so low there anyway. I've bought a litre of Jameson in Lanzarote (Spanish excise stamp on the top and all) for €15 plenty of times. Now VAT in the Canaries has gone up a bit since I was there last so it's probably €17 now.

€18.60 here on a quick search - https://www.decantalo.com/en/jameson.html
So it's not too hard to imagine that it can be purchased cheaper than that elsewhere, especially when on offer.

Snickers Man · 26-01-2021 05:07PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I've often wondered why a half bottle of whiskey is significantly expensive compared to a 700ml bottle. In tesco today 700ml of Jameson is 27, a half bottle, 350ml is 15. So 2 half bottles is 10% more expensive than the standard bottle. If they were genuinly interested in reducing problem drinking, should they not encourage the buying of the half bottle?

odyssey06 wrote: »

You used to be able to get two miniature bottles of wine in Tesco for €5, or 2 half bottles for €10.
That deal is gone now.
You may as well buy a full size discounted bottle.

Nail on the head. I would love more options with regard to sizing, especially wrt wine, but to bring in offers like that would be too much like intelligent thinking. And this is all about shape throwing, virtue signalling, finger wagging, holier than thou horse****!!!!!!!

I like to throw some wine into stuff when I'm cooking. (Aside: the difference between decent Bolognese sauce and delicious Bolognese sauce is a couple of glasses of wine at the cooking stage). However, I wouldn't want to open a full bottle of wine just for that and as herself and meself are basically Jack Sprat and his wife (I can drink no white; she can drink no red) I would be left with the entire bottle to skull myself. Unless we're having people over which in these Covid times we can't do anyway. :mad:

It would make much more sense if I could just buy some smaller bottles of wine (which I can do in the North very easily; very hard to come by here) without being fleeced on price.

Similarly, selling wine in smaller bottles and encouraging the sale of such, could allow people to enjoy a modest amount with their dinner instead of HAVING to polish off an entire bottle when all they wanted was half of that because, well, it doesn't keep does it?

So many of the things the anti-drinks lobby do is counter productive. Remember Arthur's Day, that Guinness launched a few years back? It was an initiative to encourage events whether musical, literary or recreational in pubs. Which is a great idea. But no. The finger waggers were up in arms saying it "normalised" drinking and encouraged people to get pissed so it was cancelled after a few years.

On the contrary, it gave people a reason to go to a pub for purposes OTHER than getting pissed. Sure, you might have had a drink or two but with other things going on they would often act as a brake on people's consumption. Take the events away, what have you? No reason to go to the pub OTHER than getting pissed!!!
Somehow the logic of this is beyond the capability of the antidrinks mob to comprehend.

So my solution to curtail problem drinking and NORMALISE moderate drinking (as opposed to trying to stamp it out altogether)

1) Stop this ridiculous practice of banning bulk buys. As the man above says: it will only encourage people to buy ONE BIG THING (which CAN still be discounted) rather than six little things which cannot

2) Encourage the option of smaller wine bottle sizes. People can still enjoy a glass of wine with their dinner without getting more pissed than they intended

3) Bring back Arthur's Day (when we can) Give people a reason to go out for a few pints and some pleasurable ancillary activity rather than sitting in a pub and getting blitzed

4) Restore drink driving limits to the old levels so you can have a couple of pints and still drive legally. And then clamp down without mercy on those who are caught exceeding those limits. It's one of the best self-regulators there is.

Snickers Man · 26-01-2021 05:20PM

Darc19 wrote: »

Pay a visit to St Patrick's, or St. John of god's or Cluain mhuire. Ask the families of those attending rehab what harm alcohol does. Ask the management what the waiting list is like (6 months), listen to the stories at AA meetings (in every town in the country), the drinking of wages, the violence, the moods, the loss of jobs,

I could go on and on and on.

Yep, tobacco is harmful too. But in the hapenny place compared to alcohol

Antares35 wrote: »

With respect, those people are not addicts because of the price of alcohol.

Absolutely. Can anybody show a "Study" or "Report" from anywhere that even suggests that there is ANY price elasticity AT ALL for addictive behaviour?

The whole point about "price curves" and "price elasticity" is that they assume the purchases are discretionary and voluntary.

The great thing about an addict is you can charge him or her what you like. They're an addict.

kenmc · 26-01-2021 06:37PM

weldoninhio wrote: »

We don’t have a drink problem though, we’ve a few problem drinkers, same as every country in the world. We are mid-lower table in Europe for alcohol consumed per capita and getting lower and lower every year. It’s an absolute myth that we are all raging alcoholics.

Sush you, that doesn't fit with the nanny state narrative. We need to be protected from ourselves, are you not listening?

Quackster · 26-01-2021 09:23PM

I disagree, the "drinking problems" are myths from the government.

Snickers Man wrote: »

I like to throw some wine into stuff when I'm cooking. (Aside: the difference between decent Bolognese sauce and delicious Bolognese sauce is a couple of glasses of wine at the cooking stage). However, I wouldn't want to open a full bottle of wine just for that and as herself and meself are basically Jack Sprat and his wife (I can drink no white; she can drink no red) I would be left with the entire bottle to skull myself. Unless we're having people over which in these Covid times we can't do anyway. :mad:

The solution to this particular conundrum is to freeze some wine in an ice cube tray and pop however many cubes into your pot when you're cooking.

Roger Mellie Man on the Telly · 26-01-2021 11:23PM

Quackster wrote: »

The solution to this particular conundrum is to freeze some wine in an ice cube tray and pop however many cubes into your pot when you're cooking.

Provided you have a freezer.

weldoninhio · 26-01-2021 11:34PM

kenmc wrote: »

Sush you, that doesn't fit with the nanny state narrative. We need to be protected from ourselves, are you not listening?

Sorry, must have been drunk posting.

Suckit · 27-01-2021 12:35AM

Snickers Man wrote: »

Absolutely. Can anybody show a "Study" or "Report" from anywhere that even suggests that there is ANY price elasticity AT ALL for addictive behaviour?

The whole point about "price curves" and "price elasticity" is that they assume the purchases are discretionary and voluntary.

The great thing about an addict is you can charge him or her what you like. They're an addict.

Scotland did done it. We must do it. Who cares if something something drugs.. something happened.

Alcohol Action Ireland are here to save the day with our tax euros. How else can they justify their wages?

Hotblack Desiato · 27-01-2021 03:04AM

Quackster wrote: »

The solution to this particular conundrum is to freeze some wine in an ice cube tray and pop however many cubes into your pot when you're cooking.

Or make twice as much sauce and freeze half.

There's never going to be anything like the same value and choice in half or quarter bottles of wine than full bottles, the demand just isn't there. Same with 250mL of lager, you can get them but not many as most people want 500 or 330.

odyssey06 · 27-01-2021 08:10AM

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Or make twice as much sauce and freeze half.
There's never going to be anything like the same value and choice in half or quarter bottles of wine than full bottles, the demand just isn't there. Same with 250mL of lager, you can get them but not many as most people want 500 or 330.

Lidl seem to have the best value miniatures at 250ml.

If you have miniature bottles pour any leftover wine into them and add pinch of salt. Use for cooking but remember to reduce the salt in your recipe.

Snickers Man · 27-01-2021 10:27AM

Snickers Man wrote: »

Absolutely. Can anybody show a "Study" or "Report" from anywhere that even suggests that there is ANY price elasticity AT ALL for addictive behaviour?

The whole point about "price curves" and "price elasticity" is that they assume the purchases are discretionary and voluntary.

Suckit wrote: »

Scotland did done it. We must do it. Who cares if something something drugs.. something happened.

So that would be a "No" then.

27-01-2021 04:27PM

Snickers Man wrote: »

Nail on the head. I would love more options with regard to sizing, especially wrt wine, but to bring in offers like that would be too much like intelligent thinking. And this is all about shape throwing, virtue signalling, finger wagging, holier than thou horse****!!!!!!!

I like to throw some wine into stuff when I'm cooking. (Aside: the difference between decent Bolognese sauce and delicious Bolognese sauce is a couple of glasses of wine at the cooking stage). However, I wouldn't want to open a full bottle of wine just for that and as herself and meself are basically Jack Sprat and his wife (I can drink no white; she can drink no red) I would be left with the entire bottle to skull myself. Unless we're having people over which in these Covid times we can't do anyway. :mad:

It would make much more sense if I could just buy some smaller bottles of wine (which I can do in the North very easily; very hard to come by here) without being fleeced on price.

Similarly, selling wine in smaller bottles and encouraging the sale of such, could allow people to enjoy a modest amount with their dinner instead of HAVING to polish off an entire bottle when all they wanted was half of that because, well, it doesn't keep does it?

So many of the things the anti-drinks lobby do is counter productive. Remember Arthur's Day, that Guinness launched a few years back? It was an initiative to encourage events whether musical, literary or recreational in pubs. Which is a great idea. But no. The finger waggers were up in arms saying it "normalised" drinking and encouraged people to get pissed so it was cancelled after a few years.

On the contrary, it gave people a reason to go to a pub for purposes OTHER than getting pissed. Sure, you might have had a drink or two but with other things going on they would often act as a brake on people's consumption. Take the events away, what have you? No reason to go to the pub OTHER than getting pissed!!!
Somehow the logic of this is beyond the capability of the antidrinks mob to comprehend.

So my solution to curtail problem drinking and NORMALISE moderate drinking (as opposed to trying to stamp it out altogether)

1) Stop this ridiculous practice of banning bulk buys. As the man above says: it will only encourage people to buy ONE BIG THING (which CAN still be discounted) rather than six little things which cannot

2) Encourage the option of smaller wine bottle sizes. People can still enjoy a glass of wine with their dinner without getting more pissed than they intended

3) Bring back Arthur's Day (when we can) Give people a reason to go out for a few pints and some pleasurable ancillary activity rather than sitting in a pub and getting blitzed

4) Restore drink driving limits to the old levels so you can have a couple of pints and still drive legally. And then clamp down without mercy on those who are caught exceeding those limits. It's one of the best self-regulators there is.

There was a story I read a while back. it might have been from the US where 500ml bottles are more common. The guy writing the story admitted to being a functional alcoholic. Every evening he goes into the off license and buys a 500ml bottle of bourbon. From being there everyday he got to know the guy running the place. One day the shop owner said to him, "You know, if you bought the litre bottle it would work out a bit cheaper than the 500ml". The guy replied, "if I buy the litre bottle, I'll drink the litre. A litre is too much and gets me too drunk and I can't function the next day".

I can empathise with that from a smoking point of view. When I started smoking years ago you could still buy the 10 pack, but they got rid of the 10 pack because according to ASH or whichever anti-smoking group the ten pack encouraged kids to take up smoking. What was the impact of banning the ten pack? Well, guess who went from smoking 10 a day to 20 a day?

L1011 · 27-01-2021 04:28PM

Quackster wrote: »

The solution to this particular conundrum is to freeze some wine in an ice cube tray and pop however many cubes into your pot when you're cooking.

Useless for deglazing for pan sauces, though.

KrustyUCC · 02-02-2021 11:17AM

New EU rules may put paid to cheaper alcohol and cigarettes from overseas

THE EU is considering stopping Irish holidaymakers loading up on cheaper alcohol and cigarettes when they travel to other countries – with new rules that would also affect trips to Northern Ireland.

Ireland is one of the most expensive places in the EU to buy alcohol and cigarettes, due to high excise duties.

In a public consultation launched yesterday, the EU suggested holidaymakers should pay excise duties at home rates rather than where they buy products.

Ireland’s wine prices are the highest in the EU. The country is second-highest for spirits prices (after Sweden) and third-highest for beer (after Finland and Denmark).

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/new-eu-rules-may-put-paid-to-cheaper-alcohol-and-cigarettes-from-overseas-40039910.html

You would hope that the media might repeat the statistics about wine prices, spirits or beers to Eunan McKinney the next time he's advocating about 'cheap alcohol' in this country

That's unlikely though

Hotblack Desiato · 02-02-2021 01:58PM

Mad.

But there will be duty free to and from Britain...

I'd love to know how French wine prices are not a threat to public health in France, but bring that bottle back home to Ireland and suddenly it becomes one :rolleyes:

Quantum Erasure · 02-02-2021 02:09PM

can't wait for the booze cruises to Ireland for the excise-free wine and fags...

Suckit · 02-02-2021 07:12PM

How would they implement that? Ask everyone for their passports? Check every car boot, van, coach etc?
Or would it be done in every off-licence, supermarket etc..
Everyone must show their passport upon purchase to pay duty...

Minimum alcohol pricing is nigh

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