Cities around the world that are reducing car access

30-01-2021 8:24pm

LXFlyer wrote: »

The main capital projects - BusConnects, Metrolink and the LUAS extension to Finglas should make a difference to this with new P & R facilities being key elements of them.

Well I'll be honest and say I've never used park and ride facilities (although I think they're a great idea, and definitely a preferred option for non-Dubliners), but I know people who have used them, and from what I gather, they're very expensive options. So much so, that it makes more sense to continue the commute into the city, rather than pay over the odds for additional hassle.

I also believe (this is all anecdotal, of course) that actually getting parking can be an issue at these places? I've heard this said, but I've no personal experience of it (and would lean towards thinking it's not true, as I can't imagine such a facility would be built without taking into consideration the volume of users.. although this is Ireland..).

If I was commuting into the city each day, for me a park/ride facility would need to provide a few things to work:

1 - Financially sensible. Has to be at least similar to the cost of continuing the journey and parking in the city, by car.

2 - Reliable parking. I'm not going to go into the park and ride facility, only to drive around for 10 minutes looking for parking, and then giving up and driving to work anyway as there's no space for me.

3 - Reliable trains/buses. As above, if there's a risk I'll park my car, and then get to the train to realise that it's actually full, or running late, then the positives of park/ride diminish and I again will look to continue my journey by car in future.

All of this could be solved with annual tickets being sold, that give you a booked seat and parking space, Mon-Fri for a set price. You arrive at the facility and you know where to park your car, you get on the bus and you know your seat is there for you. You don't have to worry or stress, and you know you won't be late for work, or gambling with having the facility available to you.

The downside of course is that, if this was done in real life, the ticket would probably cost an absolute fortune.

Podge_irl · 30-01-2021 8:35pm

We should not be facilitating or encouraging commuting from Monaghan to Dublin City Centre for quite a lot of reasons, but if people need or want to do it they can get a Park & Ride.

Enforcement of parking regulations in Dublin is a joke. There is no point talking about making it accessible for everyone when it is the exact opposite at the moment in no small part thanks to the preponderance of private motor vehicles.

Podge_irl · 30-01-2021 8:37pm

Unless someone has parking provided by work (a rarity for the city centre outside of a diminishing number of council locations) or is parking illegally there is almost zero chance that a P&R facility is going to be more expensive then parking in the city centre. It's also unlikely to be quicker. What it is is potentially more convenient.

Zebra3 · 30-01-2021 8:40pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Well I'll be honest and say I've never used park and ride facilities (although I think they're a great idea, and definitely a preferred option for non-Dubliners), but I know people who have used them, and from what I gather, they're very expensive options. So much so, that it makes more sense to continue the commute into the city, rather than pay over the odds for additional hassle.

I also believe (this is all anecdotal, of course) that actually getting parking can be an issue at these places? I've heard this said, but I've no personal experience of it (and would lean towards thinking it's not true, as I can't imagine such a facility would be built without taking into consideration the volume of users.. although this is Ireland..).

Sure if there's a problem getting a spot at a P&R why not just park illegally outside it?

LXFlyer · 30-01-2021 8:57pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Well I'll be honest and say I've never used park and ride facilities (although I think they're a great idea, and definitely a preferred option for non-Dubliners), but I know people who have used them, and from what I gather, they're very expensive options. So much so, that it makes more sense to continue the commute into the city, rather than pay over the odds for additional hassle.

I also believe (this is all anecdotal, of course) that actually getting parking can be an issue at these places? I've heard this said, but I've no personal experience of it (and would lean towards thinking it's not true, as I can't imagine such a facility would be built without taking into consideration the volume of users.. although this is Ireland..).

If I was commuting into the city each day, for me a park/ride facility would need to provide a few things to work:

1 - Financially sensible. Has to be at least similar to the cost of continuing the journey and parking in the city, by car.

2 - Reliable parking. I'm not going to go into the park and ride facility, only to drive around for 10 minutes looking for parking, and then giving up and driving to work anyway as there's no space for me.

3 - Reliable trains/buses. As above, if there's a risk I'll park my car, and then get to the train to realise that it's actually full, or running late, then the positives of park/ride diminish and I again will look to continue my journey by car in future.

All of this could be solved with annual tickets being sold, that give you a booked seat and parking space, Mon-Fri for a set price. You arrive at the facility and you know where to park your car, you get on the bus and you know your seat is there for you. You don't have to worry or stress, and you know you won't be late for work, or gambling with having the facility available to you.

The downside of course is that, if this was done in real life, the ticket would probably cost an absolute fortune.

BusConnects, Metrolink and LUAS / DART extensions are all about providing realistic options.

Irish Rail already provide annual parking and travel ticket options under the Taxsaver scheme.

30-01-2021 9:16pm

Zebra3 wrote: »

Sure if there's a problem getting a spot at a P&R why not just park illegally outside it?

Good point.

Tomrota · 30-01-2021 9:57pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

Unless someone has parking provided by work (a rarity for the city centre outside of a diminishing number of council locations) or is parking illegally there is almost zero chance that a P&R facility is going to be more expensive then parking in the city centre. It's also unlikely to be quicker. What it is is potentially more convenient.

If this was the case, then basic economics would show that the majority of people would have switched to park and rides.

The reality is people are priced out of Dublin due to countless government policy failures surrounding the housing crisis. It’s not an option to live within Dublin for many people. Therefore the government should provide solutions for those in north Wicklow, north Dublin county, east Kildare, east Meath. Park and rides are a great solution for this. Major park and rides. For example, if huge park and rides were built along motorways/national roads in places like Greystones, Bray, Naas, Maynooth, Balbriggan, etc. with high quality DART and bus connections, I think this would get a lot of commuter traffic off the roads and allow people to seamlessly switch to public transport. This would also tackle the issue of longer distance commuters (40+km) who could commute as far as these park and rides and avail of the high quality transport corridors that they create. No need to travel any further by car.

It would require huge investment and subsidy from the government, but build it good and get it right the first time and people will use it. Incremental change within our public transport infrastructure doesn’t seem to be working (when the government only builds when bus or rail has reached or exceeded capacity). How does that appeal to anyone who’s on the fence about switching to public transport? It doesn’t, and that’s clear to be seen judging by the amount of cars commuting on the M4/N7/N11 each morning.

Podge_irl · 30-01-2021 10:47pm

Tomrota wrote: »

If this was the case, then basic economics would show that the majority of people would have switched to park and rides.

People massively underestimate the cost of running a car. Also there is a price to convenience. People choose to drive into town from the suburbs despite it being likely slower and more expensive than taking public transport. Economics does not drive everything particularly when people are bad to valuing things.

Seth Brundle · 30-01-2021 10:55pm

Tomrota wrote: »

The reality is people are priced out of Dublin due to countless government policy failures surrounding the housing crisis.

...and yet they continue to elect them!

Peregrine · 30-01-2021 11:24pm

Anyway, it looks like proposed new parking enforcement policy should easily get through the Transport SPC next week.

A revised 30kph proposal should hopefully be ready for the next Transport SPC in May. Again, it should easily pass at the SPC but that has to be voted on by the full council in June. There will be a lot more engagement and negotiation with councillors at area committee level this time so there should be a consensus before it goes to a vote and we can avoid the unfortunate scenes we saw at the last vote.

magicbastarder · 31-01-2021 12:22am

it's an ongoing issue that the needs of the people who use the city don't always seemingly dovetail with the needs of the people who live in the city. for example, often (what i would regard as) sensible proposals which would fall within the boundaries of say, stoneybatter, would be voted down by the councillors of stoneybatter; because while those proposals are intended to benefit people passing through that ward, it'd be the people in that ward who elect the councillors who get to vote on it.

another example would be the 40 or so houses at the fairview end of the malahide road; busconnects proposals as per the initial draft would have claimed some or all of the front gardens or 20 or 25 of those houses, IIRC. but it's the councillors who represent the people in those houses who would have had a far greater say on the matter, than the councillors representing the potentially tens of thousands of people who would benefit from an improved bus service without that bottleneck. as is oft the case, it's easier to point to the tiny number of people who would suffer, than it is to point to the far larger number of people who would benefit.

in the context of the 'commuting from monaghan' debate though, i'm very wary of compounding one mistake with another.
if someone could quantify how many people commute into the city from the likes of monaghan, it'd be useful, because in my experience (which i'll wholeheartedly admit is obviously going to be limited), i've yet to meet anyone who had a job based in dublin city centre who moved that far away based purely on cost. if we're going to debate the need to cater for cars in the city centre based on people commuting in from 100km away, we should at least know if we're talking about 1% or 5% of commuters, or whatever.

magicbastarder · 31-01-2021 12:24am

i guess what i'm saying that if we do cater for the likes of the people KKV is talking about, the 2.whatever% of people commuting in from monaghan, we have to allow for the fact that that may well negatively impact the 20.whatever% of people commuting in on PT or bike, etc.

the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. live long and prosper.

MJohnston · 31-01-2021 1:28am

magicbastarder wrote: »

i guess what i'm saying that if we do cater for the likes of the people KKV is talking about, the 2.whatever% of people commuting in from monaghan, we have to allow for the fact that that may well negatively impact the 20.whatever% of people commuting in on PT or bike, etc.

the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. live long and prosper.

Indeed. On a per-volume basis (for want of a better term), cars are easily the lowest on the ladder in terms of how people commute into the city. It doesn’t make any rational sense to allow them to continue to dominate street space.

Of course there’s little rational about most people behind the wheel of a car.

31-01-2021 1:48am

magicbastarder wrote: »

the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. live long and prosper.

I reckon if they just did a decent, large scale park and ride around the north, west and south of Dublin, and priced it somewhat reasonably, then people would naturally fall in line with it, if it was usable.

I honestly reckon that should be the next step, and let people, the general public, feel like they have the decision themselves, to decide what to do, and not feel like it's being forced upon them.

In saying that, would the census not be a source of information for figuring out who is travelling to work? Not sure if it asks your employment location, but it obviously knows your home address.

31-01-2021 1:51am

MJohnston wrote: »

Of course there’s little rational about most people behind the wheel of a car.

Yeah, imagine having independence and being to go where you like, whenever you like. Not relying on anyone else to get you to or from.

You come across very silly with such comments.

31-01-2021 11:13am

Deleted User wrote: »

I reckon if they just did a decent, large scale park and ride around the north, west and south of Dublin, and priced it somewhat reasonably, then people would naturally fall in line with it, if it was usable.

I honestly reckon that should be the next step, and let people, the general public, feel like they have the decision themselves, to decide what to do, and not feel like it's being forced upon them.

In saying that, would the census not be a source of information for figuring out who is travelling to work? Not sure if it asks your employment location, but it obviously knows your home address.

Unfortunately the last 50 years shows that doesnt work and the only thing that drives the switch is by increasing both the cost & inconvenience. Its a logical approach given that the car is the least efficient mode of transport within a city

So, want to drive into the city center, expect it to be slower, cost more and more stressful. Thankfully, councils in many parts of Ireland and all over the world are waking up to the reality that you have to design for people, not for cars

magicbastarder · 31-01-2021 11:39am

one thing which i did when i was bored and worked out the other day;
if you were to park up the 'three lane' M50 in one direction - the 30km from the M1/M50 interchange, to the exit at leopardstown - parking up all *four* lanes (i.e. the three lanes plus the exit lane), with cars literally bumper to bumper*, and placed one person in each car (which would probably be true of most private car traffic on the M50 anyway), you'd accomodate a grand total of 30,000 people. which seems to be also approximately the capacity of the trams running on the luas lines, both green and red line. if you were to place one car length between each car, obviously you'd then manage it with trams from just one line.

*allowing 4m per car - i've an octavia and the internet seems to think that's 4.5m

MJohnston · 31-01-2021 1:53pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Yeah, imagine having independence and being to go where you like, whenever you like. Not relying on anyone else to get you to or from.

You come across very silly with such comments.

Oh I have a car, I just know that most people are idiots when they get behind the wheel.

I’m also not selfish enough to use my car to commute into work (in normal times), even though I live in an area where the bus is my only option.

MJohnston · 31-01-2021 1:55pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

one thing which i did when i was bored and worked out the other day;
if you were to park up the 'three lane' M50 in one direction - the 30km from the M1/M50 interchange, to the exit at leopardstown - parking up all *four* lanes (i.e. the three lanes plus the exit lane), with cars literally bumper to bumper*, and placed one person in each car (which would probably be true of most private car traffic on the M50 anyway), you'd accomodate a grand total of 30,000 people. which seems to be also approximately the capacity of the trams running on the luas lines, both green and red line. if you were to place one car length between each car, obviously you'd then manage it with trams from just one line.

*allowing 4m per car - i've an octavia and the internet seems to think that's 4.5m

Yep, it’s a deeply inefficient mode of commuting.

magicbastarder · 31-01-2021 2:03pm

yep, to expand on that analogy - a full tram (one of the long ones) has a stated capacity of 408. allowing four car lengths per car, i.e. slow moving traffic, on the M50, means a tram carries the same capacity as 1.6km of 4 lane motorway. (at one occupant per car, as per above).

donvito99 · 31-01-2021 3:13pm

Deleted User wrote: »

You come across very silly with such comments.

And you seem to think that everyone lives in Monaghan and works on Sir John Rogerson's Quay...

magicbastarder · 31-01-2021 3:38pm

monaghan has fewer than 1,719 people residents commuting to dublin city as of 2016 (how much fewer, i have no idea yet - that is simply the number of people from the lowest listed county, and the list doesn't reach monaghan):
https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-cp6ci/p6cii/p6www/

if you open the map linked in that, you can see which areas (dark blue) have the greatest outward flow of commuters, and there are no surprises in it really.

31-01-2021 4:03pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Unfortunately the last 50 years shows that doesnt work and the only thing that drives the switch is by increasing both the cost & inconvenience. Its a logical approach given that the car is the least efficient mode of transport within a city

What do you mean, when you say the last 50 years? I, at 33 years old, have not seen an enormous increase in convenience or reduction in cost for public transport.

Basic, simple things like park and ride on a large scale are nonexistent. The local equivalents (driving to your nearest train station and getting to work from there) are priced so heavily that they make no sense at all.

I don't see how you can claim that increasing cost and inconvenience is the only thing that works, when there doesn't appear to be any true examples of making it more convenient to use public transport.

When we all get back to normal and commuting again, let's see what would happen if we gave free parking at all train/bus stations with every commuter ticket sold. Would that be an idea? No, it wouldn't. Instead we'd talk about increasing tolls. It's always the 'stick' approach that gets taken.

MJohnston wrote: »

I’m also not selfish enough to use my car to commute into work (in normal times), even though I live in an area where the bus is my only option.

... What? You're not selfish enough to commute by car, because bus is the only option?

donvito99 wrote: »

And you seem to think that everyone lives in Monaghan and works on Sir John Rogerson's Quay...

I don't understand that post. My (very valid) argument is that there are people commuting to Dublin city centre from Monaghan. Are you saying that's not true?

Zebra3 · 31-01-2021 4:37pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

What do you mean, when you say the last 50 years? I, at 33 years old, have not seen an enormous increase in convenience or reduction in cost for public transport.

Why should it get cheaper?

Prices go up. That’s the way of the world. Is Monaghan some sort of parallel universe?

Do you expect the government to start planning for people to commute from Donegal and Kerry to Dublin?

31-01-2021 5:03pm

Zebra3 wrote: »

Why should it get cheaper?

Prices go up. That’s the way of the world. Is Monaghan some sort of parallel universe?

Do you expect the government to start planning for people to commute from Donegal and Kerry to Dublin?

In an ideal(dreamer) situation, you would have jobs and accommodation evenly spread around the country such that people can find work in their skill-set close by so long distance commuting is unnecessary. In such a situation, commuters would drive to a close by town, get on a park and ride system that stops close to where they work. Suburban dwellers would be able to use PT.

In reality, this would be very difficult to achieve.

Tomrota · 31-01-2021 5:22pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

People massively underestimate the cost of running a car. Also there is a price to convenience. People choose to drive into town from the suburbs despite it being likely slower and more expensive than taking public transport. Economics does not drive everything particularly when people are bad to valuing things.

I wasn’t talking about the suburbs, I was referring to commuter towns - the likes of Bray, Naas and Maynooth. They are responsible for thousands upon thousands of cars clogging up the M50 and the city centre every working day. I suggested building park and rides along major corridors such as the M4, N7 and N11 with high quality public transport links to allow people in commuter towns (and those in towns further away) to park there and avoid driving into the city altogether.

31-01-2021 5:51pm

Zebra3 wrote: »

Why should it get cheaper?
Prices go up. That’s the way of the world. Is Monaghan some sort of parallel universe?

You have the strangest way of interpreting things. Deliberately missing the point (i hope). Prices go up, but if you want someone to use something, you make it appealing to them. A bus ticket, return, from Drogheda to Dublin is €16. It would cost less on Diesel in a car to do that. Hence, I wouldn't be in a panic to look at the bus as a realistic alternative.

Do you expect the government to start planning for people to commute from Donegal and Kerry to Dublin?

From Donegal, yes. The government can't seem to figure out how to get any decent jobs outside of Dublin.

From Kerry, perhaps not, as Cork or Galway might be better options, albeit it, if the better paid jobs are in Dublin, guess where the person is going... :rolleyes:

donvito99 · 31-01-2021 6:09pm

Deleted User wrote: »

My (very valid) argument is that there are people commuting to Dublin city centre from Monaghan. Are you saying that's not true?

is that you, Mr President?

Less than 30% of people commuting into Dublin CC are doing so by car. The whole point of this thread is to chronicle measures that would see the city suit the vast majority of commuters, as well as the people who actually live here all year around, as opposed to the bus load or so of people who shag off to Monaghan at 5.15 every evening.

LXFlyer · 31-01-2021 6:25pm

Deleted User wrote: »

You have the strangest way of interpreting things. Deliberately missing the point (i hope). Prices go up, but if you want someone to use something, you make it appealing to them. A bus ticket, return, from Drogheda to Dublin is €16. It would cost less on Diesel in a car to do that. Hence, I wouldn't be in a panic to look at the bus as a realistic alternative.

Any daily commuter would be using a monthly or annual ticket through the Taxsaver scheme which cuts the cost by up to 52% depending on your tax rate. They certainly don’t pay the day return fare.

Also for stations from Balbriggan inward the higher subsidised Short Hop Zone fares apply.

Zebra3 · 31-01-2021 6:25pm

Deleted User wrote: »

You have the strangest way of interpreting things. Deliberately missing the point (i hope). Prices go up, but if you want someone to use something, you make it appealing to them. A bus ticket, return, from Drogheda to Dublin is €16. It would cost less on Diesel in a car to do that. Hence, I wouldn't be in a panic to look at the bus as a realistic alternative.

Yet plenty of others do so they can relax, maybe do some reading or get some work done.

I guess the experts who continue to pollute to save a couple of quid and get increased stress have it all worked out though.

Cities around the world that are reducing car access

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