Relaxation of Restrictions, Part VIII Read OP For Mod Warnings

FintanMcluskey · 30-01-2021 01:13AM

Arghus wrote: »

Can you prove that the lockdown hasn't saved lives that otherwise would have been lost.

Just like you can’t prove it has saved lives I can’t prove it hasn’t.

I can only reference countries that don’t impose lockdowns as strict as Ireland, or didn’t impose lockdowns at all, with older populations who seen similar death rates

30-01-2021 01:16AM

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

I’ll check this out so thanks. Who actually does participate?

It’s impossible to make sense of this when there is just figures blurted out without comparison.

It’s similar saying Ireland had excess deaths in 2020 with no comparison to 2018.

27 participating countries: Austria, Belgium, Cyprus, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany (Berlin), Germany (Hesse), Greece, Hungary, Ireland, Israel, Italy, Luxembourg, Malta, Netherlands, Norway, Portugal, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, UK (England), UK (Northern Ireland), UK (Scotland), UK (Wales).

https://www.euromomo.eu/graphs-and-maps/

FintanMcluskey · 30-01-2021 01:16AM

Penfailed wrote: »

Nope.

In saying that, it depends on what metric you are using to determine severity of restrictions. There's a poster on here who considers us all to be in lockdown if restaurants are closed...

If the Gestapo were handing toast and water through the letter box each morning I image you would consider it À la carte dining in the worlds most liberal nation

Arghus · 30-01-2021 01:16AM

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

Just like you can’t prove it has saved lives I can’t prove it hasn’t.

I can only reference countries that don’t impose lockdowns as strict as Ireland, or didn’t impose lockdowns at all, with older populations who seen similar death rates

Of course I can prove it.

Look what happened in December.

As soon as restrictions were lifted, cases exploded and now literally hundreds of people are dead as a direct result.

FintanMcluskey · 30-01-2021 01:20AM

Arghus wrote: »

Of course I can prove it.

Look what happened in December.

As soon as restrictions were lifted, cases exploded and now literally hundreds of people are dead as a direct result.

Can I establish something?

Are you of the opinion every one of those deaths is exclusively from Covid?

Arghus · 30-01-2021 01:22AM

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

Can I establish something?

Are you of the opinion every one of those deaths is exclusively from Covid?

Ah, you see this is what you do when you are presented with inarguble facts, you move the goalposts, or you don't reply - that can happen too.

Have your arguments not evolved in all this time?

growleaves · 30-01-2021 01:22AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Ireland was never in a real lockdown

I’m not a rapper

FintanMcluskey · 30-01-2021 01:23AM

Arghus wrote: »

Ah, you see this is what you do when you are presented with inarguble facts, you move the goalposts, or you don't reply - that can happen too.

Have your arguments not evolved in all this time?

Can I get a yes or no?

Are those deaths exclusively from Covid?

Just for the purpose of the argument

You made the claim, hundreds of people are dead as a direct result

Penfailed · 30-01-2021 01:24AM

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

If the Gestapo were handing toast and water through the letter box each morning I image you would consider it À la carte dining in the worlds most liberal nation

Nope. Wrong again.

Irish Steve · 30-01-2021 01:27AM

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

Can I establish something?

Are you of the opinion every one of those deaths is exclusively from Covid?

Change the record.

None of the people particpating here are deciding what rules apply to the reports that are being issued by the relevant people, and to the best of my knowledge, they are not changing the rules about how deaths are recorded.

The guidance is clear, and has not been changed, so all you are doing, yet again, is trying to deflect from figures that are harming your headlong rush to try and forget what's actually happening in the real world outside of your bubble.

Clearly, you are determined to go back to the normal that you want, regardless of the consequences for others.

Arghus · 30-01-2021 01:28AM

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

Can I get a yes or no?

Are those deaths exclusively from Covid?

Just for the purpose of the argument

You made the claim, hundreds of people are dead as a direct result

You also made the claim earlier that Ireland's lockdown has failed because of the death toll - you didn't place any caveats on the figures then. It suited your argument.

But, when presented with my assertion that there's been a rapid increase of deaths due to Covid now, the exact same criteria you used to form your earlier argument - the death toll - is suddenly suspect and up for debate.

Curious.

Kunta Kinte · 30-01-2021 01:33AM

Irish Steve wrote: »

Change the record.

None of the people particpating here are deciding what rules apply to the reports that are being issued by the relevant people, and to the best of my knowledge, they are not changing the rules about how deaths are recorded.

The guidance is clear, and has not been changed, so all you are doing, yet again, is trying to deflect from figures that are harming your headlong rush to try and forget what's actually happening in the real world outside of your bubble.

Clearly, you are determined to go back to the normal that you want, regardless of the consequences for others.

As are a handful of others on here.

FintanMcluskey · 30-01-2021 01:36AM

bettyoleary wrote: »

What else do you think they may be from TB EBOLA FOOT and MOUTH??? Of course they are from Covid. Either directly or secondary it makes no difference. Covid is real, its killing people why cant you get this? Your never going to be rich Finbar, just a regular little man an Irish citizen. Stop sticking up for those who are, you wont ever understand t;)hem and start helping to protect your own.

Perhaps your right Betty.

I’m just little old finbar who needs to have a chat with himself

FintanMcluskey · 30-01-2021 01:38AM

Arghus wrote: »

You also made the claim earlier that Ireland's lockdown has failed because of the death toll - you didn't place any caveats on the figures then. It suited your argument.

But, when presented with my assertion that there's been a rapid increase of deaths due to Covid now, the exact same criteria you used to form your earlier argument - the death toll - is suddenly suspect and up for debate.

Curious.

Your as good a straw man as the rest of us.

You pushed me for a question and I answered

You don’t have the honour to answer yours.

Not that I blame you because you have based the credibility of your argument on it

growleaves · 30-01-2021 01:38AM

bettyoleary the woman they couldn't threadban

Irish Steve · 30-01-2021 01:39AM

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

Perhaps your right Betty.

I’m just little old finbar who needs to have a chat with himself

Did you ever hear about the 3 stages of madness?

Stage 1 Talking to yourself
Stage 2 Arguing with yourself
Stage 3 Losing the argument.

Silentcorner · 30-01-2021 01:41AM

Irish Steve wrote: »

Change the record.

None of the people particpating here are deciding what rules apply to the reports that are being issued by the relevant people, and to the best of my knowledge, they are not changing the rules about how deaths are recorded.

The guidance is clear, and has not been changed, so all you are doing, yet again, is trying to deflect from figures that are harming your headlong rush to try and forget what's actually happening in the real world outside of your bubble.

Clearly, you are determined to go back to the normal that you want, regardless of the consequences for others.

Wow....we really don't tolerate questions around here!

It is very important that people feel free to question what is being rammed down our throats every day in media because it has such a massive impact on our daily lives for the foreseeable future.

So, regarding the massive surge in deaths this month, then asking how that compares to Jan 2020 or even last month is pertinent...as is what was the cause of death of these people, I saw a list of deaths for last year, and in December we recorded lower deaths (I can't find this document, so I can't expect anyone to trust what I am saying), IF that is the case then it is no wonder we are seeing a spike this month....in the same way, if we had a particularly low number of deaths in 2019, then it isn't a huge surprise to see an upswing in 2020....IF that is the case.

It's like saying we have had 350,000 excess deaths across Europe...that figure alone doesn't necessarily make sense until you compare it to the last ten years...surely you can understand that much right?

Arghus · 30-01-2021 01:46AM

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

Your as good a straw man as the rest of us.

You pushed me for a question and I answered

You don’t have the honour to answer yours.

Not that I blame you because you have based the credibility of your argument on it

Is it not obvious what my argument is at this stage.

You're getting caught up on this and trying to conflate things because I exposed the hollowness in your logic. It's tough to be caught with your pants down.

So according to you: lockdown didn't work, because of the death figures, but we can't say opening up was directly attributable to those death figures because death figures are unreliable.

So which is it Fintan? They are either a decent metric all the time or not.

FintanMcluskey · 30-01-2021 01:49AM

Arghus wrote: »

Is it not obvious what my argument is at this stage.

You're getting caught up on this and trying to conflate things because I exposed the hollowness in your logic. It's tough to be caught with your pants down.

So according to you: lockdown didn't work, because of the death figures, but we can't say opening up was directly attributable to those death figures because death figures are unreliable.

So which is it Fintan? They are either a decent metric all the time or not.

I asked the question initially

Are all those deaths exclusively due to Covid?

It’s a yes or no answer

It’s important as it was part of your argument

FintanMcluskey · 30-01-2021 01:51AM

Irish Steve wrote: »

Change the record.

None of the people particpating here are deciding what rules apply to the reports that are being issued by the relevant people, and to the best of my knowledge, they are not changing the rules about how deaths are recorded.

The guidance is clear, and has not been changed, so all you are doing, yet again, is trying to deflect from figures that are harming your headlong rush to try and forget what's actually happening in the real world outside of your bubble.

Clearly, you are determined to go back to the normal that you want, regardless of the consequences for others.

That’s a load of scutter to be honest.

I’m just asking for solid proof what’s been done is cost effective

Graham · 30-01-2021 01:52AM

Silentcorner wrote: »

It's like saying we have had 350,000 excess deaths across Europe...that figure alone doesn't necessarily make sense until you compare it to the last ten years...surely you can understand that much right?

That figure alone makes perfect sense.

It's the number of deaths above the average for the same period across the previous 5 years. i.e. the comparison has already been done. Excess deaths is the result.

Arghus · 30-01-2021 01:54AM

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

I asked the question initially

Are all those deaths exclusively due to Covid?

It’s a yes or no answer

It’s important as it was part of your argument

I've never questioned the validity of death figures - you have.

Well, aside from when you rely on them to make an argument lockdown has failed - no arguments or questions then: those are figures you can take to the bank, no question those people died from Covid.

But in every other circumstance.. well, I don't know...did they die with it...or from it...how can we know...

It’s either one or the other.

Whereas your interpretation seems pretty elastic depending on whatever point you are trying to make.

Silentcorner · 30-01-2021 01:55AM

Graham wrote: »

That figure alone makes perfect sense.

It's the number of deaths above the average for the same period across the previous 5 years. i.e. the comparison has already been done. Excess deaths is the result.

Excellent some context at last....thank you.

What percentage of deaths does that represent, is it a 20% surge or a 2% surge?

Because in this country the amount of deaths from covid alone is very small...our excess deaths couldn't be high at all.

Graham · 30-01-2021 01:58AM

Silentcorner wrote: »

What percentage of deaths does that represent, is it a 20% surge or a 2% surge?

There's plenty of data available if you want to work out percentages.

Silentcorner · 30-01-2021 02:00AM

Graham wrote: »

There's plenty of data available if you want to work out percentages.

You mean you haven't?

FintanMcluskey · 30-01-2021 02:00AM

Arghus wrote: »

Of course I can prove it.

Look what happened in December.

As soon as restrictions were lifted, cases exploded and now literally hundreds of people are dead as a direct result.

Arghus wrote: »

I've never questioned the validity of death figures - you have.

Well, aside from when you rely on them to make an argument lockdown has failed - no arguments or questions then: those are figures you can take to the bank, no question those people died from Covid.

But in every other circumstance.. well, I don't know...did they die with it...or from it...how can we know...

It’s either one or the other.

Whereas your interpretation seems pretty elastic depending on whatever point you are trying to make.

Well you did make it about those deaths when you said hundreds are dead “as a direct result”

Earlier you said people are dying at an unprecedented rate.

You have now admitted you don’t know if they are actually dying exclusively of Covid

That’s where the blurred lines come into the argument

Graham · 30-01-2021 02:03AM

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

You have now admitted you don’t know if they are actually dying exclusively of Covid

They are listed as COVID deaths.

If you have evidence to the contrary would you mind posting a link, I'd like to take a look.

ypres5 · 30-01-2021 02:06AM

bettyoleary wrote: »

They could but the who cares. Im speaking sense if Im banned a million times, its just one message. Covid is real, the numbers will go up again with testing of close contacts. There are hundreds of new outbreaks in nursing homes, homeless shelters, direct provisions. There are many people travelling against the rules. The vaccine is tipping away. We wont be back to normal this year anyway. Those that are sensible will cover for the selfish who arnt and we will struggle on untill we reach 70- 80% vaccination prob around Sept.

Thats the reality.

i think though restrictions should start winding down permanently around May/June, whenever the elderly and vulnerable are in line for vaccines otherwise it's getting a bit gratuitous, simple fact is there can always arguably be a case for lockdown and restrictions but at some point it needs to be accepted that the state and the people have done the best they can

froog · 30-01-2021 02:09AM

Silentcorner wrote: »

Excellent some context at last....thank you.

What percentage of deaths does that represent, is it a 20% surge or a 2% surge?

Because in this country the amount of deaths from covid alone is very small...our excess deaths couldn't be high at all.

Why don't you go away and actually research some stuff instead of throwing out questions on every single bit of information that is provided to you? The answers to all your questions can be found in literally minutes.

Arghus · 30-01-2021 02:10AM

Graham wrote: »

They are listed as COVID deaths.

If you have evidence to the contrary would you mind posting a link, I'd like to take a look.

They are all listed as Covid deaths.

But for some reason according to Fintan only the deaths prior to this most recent period can be directly attributed to Covid.

Blurred lines indeed.

Relaxation of Restrictions, Part VIII *Read OP For Mod Warnings*

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Relaxation of Restrictions, Part VIII Read OP For Mod Warnings