What exactly is happening with AstraZeneca?

PhilOssophy · 29-01-2021 12:05PM

Yeah I think AZ said they would do their best to supply the EU - how did the EU sign up to such a vague contract!
I am sure there's more to it and I don't know much about contracts in general, but that sounds so vague.

CrabRevolution · 29-01-2021 12:09PM

FileNotFound wrote: »

May be right.

But let's say you had a contract with a builder for a 4 bed house... And agreed a build start date.

Onky thing is, when the builder shows up you haven't bought the land yet.

Is he/she to blame. Or you? For the potential impacts.

To be clear I personally think AZ have a lot to answer for but do wonder if the EU is on as solid ground as they assumed.

Really do not want to see any blocking of vaccines going out of EU - the long term impact would be massive.

AZ didn't apply for EMA approval until Jan 12. It was only a matter of days before they revealed they would be hopelessly short of meeting the agreed Q1 supply.

What happened in those few days of "EU delay" that caused this massive shortage?

If the EU had approved it on the 13th of January, would AZ have been able to fulfill the order? If not, how did the EU's lack of approval make any difference?

Donald Trump · 29-01-2021 12:09PM

kieran26 wrote: »

I don't think the UK really have too much of a case to answer unless it turns out there were some underhanded tactics which i haven't seen any evidence of.

Not 100% definitive evidence, but at least circumstantial. Around 11th Jan it was reported that various UK leaders were told that they needed to keep information regarding supply lines secret in case other countries complained. I posted a video of Nicola Sturgeon in which she was threatening yesterday to publish those details against Westminister's orders.

https://www.hsj.co.uk/coronavirus/exclusive-ministers-keeping-uk-vaccine-supply-secret-to-avoid-diversion-to-other-nations/7029280.article

https://www.hsj.co.uk/coronavirus/exclusive-ministers-keeping-uk-vaccine-supply-secret-to-avoid-diversion-to-other-nations/7029280.article

Joe_ Public · 29-01-2021 12:10PM

trixi001 wrote: »

I does state constantly in the document best reasonable effort...

It also states that for the purposes of SEction 5.4 the EU manufacturing sites shall include the UK..

Despite having studied contract law, i don't think this is clear cut..

If at the time of signing this AZ believed they could fulfil the UK guarantee order (and we would need to see that contract too...) and the EU contract also, then i think they are ok, as they are using their best reasonable effort to fulfil the EU contract...

If at the time of signing AZ didn't think it was possible to do both, then t has been signed in bad faith.

AZ seem to have made the decision that UK manufactures UK vaccines and EU manufactures EU vaccine, which is probably what they believed was the best way to fulfil the contracts.. does this constitute best reasonable effort?

Best Reasonable effort is defined as
in the case of AstraZeneca, the activities and degree of effort that a company
of similar size with a similarly-sized infrastructure and similar resources as
AstraZeneca would undertake or use in the development and manufacture of a
Vaccine at the relevant stage of development or commercialization having regard
to the urgent need for a Vaccine to end a global pandemic which is resulting in
serious public health issues, restrictions on personal freedoms and economic
impact, across the world but taking into account efficacy and safety; and

The seperate supply line issue may well be key and seems to be in dispute. The uk AZ guy, Tom Keith Roach, specified this a couple of weeks ago when he said the "majority" of uk supplies were manufactured and finished in the uk. Majority does not mean all, so i guess the eu are curious at the least to see the supply figures and the exact origin.

ArmaniJeanss · 29-01-2021 12:10PM

PhilOssophy wrote: »

Yeah I think AZ said they would do their best to supply the EU - how did the EU sign up to such a vague contract!
I am sure there's more to it and I don't know much about contracts in general, but that sounds so vague.

'Best Endeavours' is apparently not as vague a concept as it might appear, but an accepted term in contracts. Not something which you can pull the wool over a commercial court's eye with by saying it's open to interpretation. If you aren't working full-out with over-time and commitment of resources, then it's a breach.

I admit this was news to me as well.

fly_agaric · 29-01-2021 12:13PM

mick087 wrote: »

The only thing i believe or have made comment on is my question Why was the EU commission slow off the mark in ordering this particular vaccine.
I believe they was slow in this case.

You post loads of other weird and whacky stuff about a vision for a One World Government or similar running a global vaccine production/deployment programme.

I wonder what the UKs pro-rata vaccine quota would be from world production so far in comparison to what it has administered [given India and China have > 2 billion people between them?]. Can't be bothered to work it out.

Who'd be best to vote for for the position of "World Controller Western Europe" - maybe one of those clever Lords or Barons or whatever they have in the UK? Perhaps Dominic Cummings would be good if he'd run for election.

Joe_ Public · 29-01-2021 12:13PM

Donald Trump wrote: »

Not 100% definitive evidence, but at least circumstantial. Around 11th Jan it was reported that various UK leaders were told that they needed to keep information regarding supply lines secret in case other countries complained. I posted a video of Nicola Sturgeon in which she was threatening yesterday to publish those details against Westminister's orders.

https://www.hsj.co.uk/coronavirus/exclusive-ministers-keeping-uk-vaccine-supply-secret-to-avoid-diversion-to-other-nations/7029280.article

https://www.hsj.co.uk/coronavirus/exclusive-ministers-keeping-uk-vaccine-supply-secret-to-avoid-diversion-to-other-nations/7029280.article

I think the Nicola Sturgeon issue is tangential to the eu at most. Her concern, i think, is keeping tabs on what is being promised for Scotland and what is being actually delivered so she can counter criticism of the scottish roll out. Some of the northern england councils also making noises about lack of delivery in their areas.

Donald Trump · 29-01-2021 12:14PM

FileNotFound wrote: »

May be right.

But let's say you had a contract with a builder for a 4 bed house... And agreed a build start date.

Onky thing is, when the builder shows up you haven't bought the land yet.

Is he/she to blame. Or you? For the potential impacts.

To be clear I personally think AZ have a lot to answer for but do wonder if the EU is on as solid ground as they assumed.

Really do not want to see any blocking of vaccines going out of EU - the long term impact would be massive.

Nope, your analogy is wrong. The correct analogy is that you pay the builder and fund the materials and he promises to have it finished on 31st December for you to move in on 1st Jan.

Then something delays you and you might not be able to organise movers until 15th Jan.

Builder comes to you on 20th December and says "eh, btw, I haven't actually started your house, but it's your fault because you might not be able to move until 15th Jan".

EU ordered those vaccines. It is up to the supplier to supply them. That's the end of their job - not what the EU decides to do with them afterwards. They could administer them all on day one or lock them in a warehouse for 6 months. Nothing to do with the supplier.

Donald Trump · 29-01-2021 12:17PM

Joe_ Public wrote: »

I think the Nicola Sturgeon issue is tangential to the eu at most. Her concern, i think, is keeping tabs on what is being promised for Scotland and what is being actually delivered so she can counter criticism of the scottish roll out. Some of the northern england councils also making noises about lack of delivery in their areas.

Her issue may be tangential, but the documents, should she release them, may provide information.

For example, suppose it comes out that Scotland is only to to get x million doses from a UK facility but it will also get Y million on a preferential basis from a plant in Belgium etc. Whereas maybe England is to get Z million purely from the UK plants. etc. etc.

29-01-2021 12:21PM

PhilOssophy wrote: »

Yeah I think AZ said they would do their best to supply the EU - how did the EU sign up to such a vague contract!
I am sure there's more to it and I don't know much about contracts in general, but that sounds so vague.

You must remember this was complete while trails were ongoing and there was a lot of noise around component supply. If they could not get vials for example, how could they be held to Q1 delivery commitments

Joe_ Public · 29-01-2021 12:22PM

Donald Trump wrote: »

Her issue may be tangential, but the documents, should she release them, may provide information.

For example, suppose it comes out that Scotland is only to to get x million doses from a UK facility but it will also get Y million on a preferential basis from a plant in Belgium etc. Whereas maybe England is to get Z million purely from the UK plants. etc. etc.

Thats possible, not completely sure. I thought the original intention was merely to publish figures of supplies and not more detailed information, but not 100 per cent on that tbh. Why those figures cant be released is a bit odd all the same, calling it a national security issue seems a bit of an overreach to me. Just begs further questions is all.

Pete_Cavan · 29-01-2021 12:22PM

I cant see any court accepting that prioritising another customer meets the criteria of "best reasonable effort". The clauses in any contract AZ has with the UK are totally irrelevant to the contract it has with the EU. Producing as much as they possibly can and supplying it equally to both could be considered best reasonable effort.

The whole approval thing doesn't matter, AZ only filed for approval two weeks ago so any delay there is on them, not EU.

KrustyUCC · 29-01-2021 12:24PM

300,000 fewer than expected Covid-19 vaccinations in coming months

The totality for quarter one now is 286,000, when we have been planning on expecting 600,000.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40216685.html

52% decrease on the promised doses

Donald Trump · 29-01-2021 12:24PM

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Thats possible, not completely sure. I thought the original intention was merely to publish figures of supplies and not more detailed information, but not 100 per cent on that tbh. Why those figures cant be released is a bit odd all the same, calling it a national security issue seems a bit of an overreach to me. Just begs further questions is all.

Given that they don't want them published, I doubt it's as simple as internal divvying up of UK supplies.

Unless they did something like have a schedule where England is scheduled to be fully vaccinated a few months before the rest of them

29-01-2021 12:25PM

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

I cant see any court accepting that prioritising another customer meets the criteria of "best reasonable effort". The clauses in any contract AZ has with the UK are totally irrelevant to the contract it has with the EU. Producing as much as they possibly can and supplying it equally to both could be considered best reasonable effort.

The whole approval thing doesn't matter, AZ only filed for approval two weeks ago so any delay there is on them, not EU.

Not being a lawyer I cant express too much confidence in what I think, however it does strike me that if AZ were going to prioritise preexisting agreements in the event of supply issue, this should have been called out

FileNotFound · 29-01-2021 12:26PM

irelandrover wrote: »

Wouldn't a better analogy be if you had already paid a company to deliver blocks.
When they arrive you don't have a builder or planning permission. That shouldn't matter to them as they have been paid to deliver blocks.

Not really as it this exact time it is illegal for AZ to ship, sell or do anything with this vaccine.

The EU are responsible for that - and are right to go slow as AZ have made a mess of the studies/filings.

So more close to the builder showing but you forgot to order the blocks first. Then you complain there is no wall.

Pete_Cavan · 29-01-2021 12:27PM

Saw this posted elsewhere

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29-01-2021 12:28PM

KrustyUCC wrote: »

300,000 fewer than expected Covid-19 vaccinations in coming months

The totality for quarter one now is 286,000, when we have been planning on expecting 600,000.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40216685.html

52% decrease on the promised doses

300,000 doses, not people, 550,000 instead of 700,000.

The 286,000/600,000 number relates to supply of AZ vaccine only. Did you read the article?

29-01-2021 12:30PM

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Saw this posted elsewhere

Give us our doses Mr Soriot

FileNotFound · 29-01-2021 12:30PM

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Saw this posted elsewhere

Can someone translate for my simple understanding haha

CIARAN_BOYLE · 29-01-2021 12:32PM

FileNotFound wrote: »

Can someone translate for my simple understanding haha

Astra Zealand promises that they have entered into no other contracts that would delay the initial European doses (300 million).

KrustyUCC · 29-01-2021 12:33PM

Deleted User wrote: »

300,000 doses, not people, 550,000 instead of 700,000.

The 286,000/600,000 number relates to supply of AZ vaccine only. Did you read the article?

That's the examiner headline not mine

314,000 less doses

157,000 less people

mick087 · 29-01-2021 12:33PM

fly_agaric wrote: »

You post loads of other weird and whacky stuff about a vision for a One World Government or similar running a global vaccine production/deployment programme.

I wonder what the UKs pro-rata vaccine quota would be from world production so far in comparison to what it has administered [given India and China have > 2 billion people between them?]. Can't be bothered to work it out.

I wonder who'd be best to vote for the position of "World Controller Western Europe" - maybe one of those clever Lords or Barons or whatever they have in the UK? Perhaps Dominic Cummings would be good if he'd run for election.

Don't you mean a one world elected government running a global vaccine production/deployment programme. hypothetically its a good idea but like yourself other countries leaders would not want to be part of such. Untill enough people want the same then it will remain the same. If you see such a vision as crank pot idea then things remain the same.

I have no idea why your bringing the UK into this or the IMO THE unelected nonsense they have over there?

If the European citizens did have a choice to vote for this western leader you talk about then the citizens will decide. And if citizens was not happy with this western leader then they of course could vote him out.

I hope this answers your questions.

29-01-2021 12:35PM

KrustyUCC wrote: »

That's the examiner headline not mine

314,000 less doses

157,000 less people

Thats the trouble with headlines

KrustyUCC · 29-01-2021 12:37PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Thats the trouble with headlines

True lol

Mitch Connor · 29-01-2021 12:39PM

FileNotFound wrote: »

Can someone translate for my simple understanding haha

They are not under contractual obligation to anyone else (UK for example) in any way that would impact the fulfilment of the contract with the EU.

Bass Reeves · 29-01-2021 12:44PM

Mitch Connor wrote: »

They are not under contractual obligation to anyone else (UK for example) in any way that would impact the fulfilment of the contract with the EU.

Yes best effort is not a get out of jail card. It dose not allow you to enter a contract the schedule of which you cannot fulfill. Fur I stance a company producing concrete blocks could not enter contracts to supply blocks if it had not the method to produce them. If it signed a contract and a plant producing them went on fire or had to be closed Best Effort come into effect. However generally it would be expect to carry out every effort to supply from other plants even if other business from these plants were effected.

AZ has to explain what from the time of signing the contract happened that effected it ability to supply the amount of vaccine

nelly17 · 29-01-2021 12:46PM

Just in relation to the Best Effort clause Ursula von del Layen has stated that, this specifically relates to the development of the vaccine and not the production of the vaccine and that the publication of an un-redacted version of the contract demonstrates that this is clear.

FileNotFound · 29-01-2021 12:54PM

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Yes best effort is not a get out of jail card. It dose not allow you to enter a contract the schedule of which you cannot fulfill. Fur I stance a company producing concrete blocks could not enter contracts to supply blocks if it had not the method to produce them. If it signed a contract and a plant producing them went on fire or had to be closed Best Effort come into effect. However generally it would be expect to carry out every effort to supply from other plants even if other business from these plants were effected.

AZ has to explain what from the time of signing the contract happened that effected it ability to supply the amount of vaccine

Thanks. Good to know.

But being as the whole world knew they had signed other contracts - especially UK - and I guess they all have this jargon.

Was it not a bit of a dumb simple minded approach to take. It being written can't change reality.

Not supporting AZ, they clearly screwed up and should work hard to fix. Penalties should supply I suppose.

But a bit simple minded by the EU no?

oharach7 · 29-01-2021 12:58PM

nelly17 wrote: »

Just in relation to the Best Effort clause Ursula von del Layen has stated that, this specifically relates to the development of the vaccine and not the production of the vaccine and that the publication of an un-redacted version of the contract demonstrates that this is clear.

Actually the contract does not seem to bear that out (on my reading - I am not a Belgian lawyer).

“Best Reasonable Efforts” means
(a) in the case of AstraZeneca, the activities and degree of effort that a company of similar size with a similarly-sized infrastructure and similar resources as AstraZeneca would undertake or use in the development and manufacture of a Vaccine at the relevant stage of development or commercialization having regard to the urgent need for a Vaccine to end a global pandemic which is resulting in serious public health issues, restrictions on personal freedoms and economic impact, across the world but taking into account efficacy and safety; and

Clause 5.1
"Astrazeneca shall use its Best Reasonable Efforts to manufacture the Initial Europe Doses within the EU for distribution, and to deliver to the Distribution Hubs, following EU marketing authorization, as set forth more fully in Section 7.1, approximately [redacted] 2020 [redated] Q1 2021, and (iii) the remainder of the Initial Europe Doses by the end of [redacted]

So the amount to be delivered by (presumably the end of) Q1 2021 was always an estimate based on the Best Reasonable Efforts standard.

What exactly is happening with AstraZeneca?

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