Gender Identity in Modern Ireland (Mod warnings and Threadbanned Users in OP)

Gruffalux · 28-01-2021 4:56pm

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Its claimed its a regular thing but very little evidence to support the claim other than lots of twitter posts

I wish I had saved the tweet but there was one a year or so ago from a big handsome Irish gay lad who said on twitter that the reality is when it comes down to it that gay men love good big solid c)ck. He said it in the context of transmen using gay dating apps and expecting interest. I suppose dating apps are real life in that they lead to real life stuff? It was a good and honest tweet from a person who knows the truth of things for the majority of guys using the apps.

km991148 · 28-01-2021 4:57pm

Gruffalux wrote: »

Did you ever think of becoming a politician
I did not start using labels like transphobic or trans anything. It predates my awareness of any of this malarkey. It is still considered transphobic by posters on this thread to pause at the idea of sharing intimate spaces with those who self identify as a gender, to wonder if the gender self identity laws should be constrained to avoid any abuse or awkwardness in prisons, and refuges etc, and to have an ab initio preference for genitals that belong to a certain sex.

Ok, but that's running many things together. On that specific issue of sex.. I think it's a non runner and old trope really.
People can be trans, identify as female, seek lesbians if they so wish, but also expect lots of rejection when it comes to sex if they are not honest (I imagine).

I think in the main, what surgery someone has or hasn't had isn't really anyone's business.. but obviously when you are discussing physical intimacy then the subject of genitals is a pretty damn key component of that and has to be dealt with in an open and honest way... Like pretty much any sexual act.

I don't know how clearer I can be on that.

km991148 · 28-01-2021 5:00pm

Gruffalux wrote: »

I wish I had saved the tweet but there was one a year or so ago from a big handsome Irish gay lad who said on twitter that the reality is when it comes down to it that gay men love good big solid c)ck. He said it in the context of transmen using gay dating apps and expecting interest. I suppose dating apps are real life in that they lead to real life stuff? It was a good and honest tweet from a person who knows the truth of things for the majority of guys using the apps.

This guy represented all of the gay community, or just all of the Irish gay community?

I guess they probably voted him in on the same ballot as the marriage referendum? I missed that one.

Tongue out of cheek tho: this is one person tweeting about preference. It's not indicative of hoards of dishonest trans men surprising gay men at the last minute.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 28-01-2021 5:03pm

km991148 wrote: »

Yeah we discussed those hypothetical (but potentially valid) scenarios before.

Suffice it to say, the very fact that self ID causes so much heated discussion tells you that it is a tricky area, with many valid concerns.

As far as I'm aware tho - most people I know of (and it's not that many) in the trans community are regular folks that just want to get in with life and are as sensitive to these sensitive scenarios as any other person would be.

That’s true. But why should anyone even have to deal with that uncertainty at a vulnerable moment, the fear of being judged a bigot? I would hope that in those scenarios, that the women will be informed that it will be a transgender woman examining or searching her and that she can refuse without fuss. Can that be guaranteed? I hope so.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 28-01-2021 5:08pm

RWCNT wrote: »

I don't think anyone would have taken offence, I do think someone may have responded with that slogan and started a tedious argument over it which I've seen occur in other threads here and wider social media.

I can see where you're coming from but I've no time for this making-an-issue-out-of-language-divorced-from-intent stuff from anybody on any side of any argument. If you do believe my post's poor wording betrays some sort of ill intent or misogyny on my part, well, you can believe that. Whatever insights you feel you have into the inner workings of my mind are not my business. Have a good one.

In the past year, the word ‘woman’ has been removed from some female-specific public health literature here in Ireland. The same is not true for male-specific literature. So it’s easy to be blasé about this when it doesn’t affect you (I think I’m correct in assuming you’re a man). The literature was changed back because some tenacious women made a stink and were mocked and criticised for doing so, even by some quite high profile people. This stuff actually does matter and has real world ramifications.

Gatling · 28-01-2021 5:10pm

There was several cases in the UK where women were charged with sexual assault using sex toys while in relationships with straight girls in cases long term relationships and not knowing their boyfriends were girls dressing and acting as lads .

If say a lesbian in a relationship and one partner decides they are a straight man ,and the other ends the relationship based off they are lesbian with no interest men ,the other self identifying man then cries transpobia against the ex partner ,who's in the wrong

Gruffalux · 28-01-2021 5:12pm

km991148 wrote: »

This guy represented all of the gay community, or just all of the Irish gay community?

I guess they probably voted him in on the same ballot as the marriage referendum? I missed that one.

Tongue out of cheek tho: this is one person tweeting about preference. It's not indicative of hoards of dishonest trans men surprising gay men at the last minute.

I am not talking about people whipping out their genitals at the last minute or deception. I have repeated several times I am talking about a genital preference before you even meet anyone. Off the bat. Ab initio. Out of the traps - all pointed towards that.
Personally I think knowing what genitals you like to have sex with is normal.

Vic_08 · 28-01-2021 5:13pm

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Its claimed its a regular thing but very little evidence to support the claim other than lots of twitter posts

This "it only happens on twitter/the internet" is a handy way of disengaging from a topic without having to actually address it, so to be perfectly clear;

A lesbian whose stated position is that they find the idea of sex with a m-f trans to be as equally unappealing as with a man, completely out of bounds as a person to date or have one shown on their preferred dating platform for consideration of dating is 100% within their rights to have this opinion and speak it openly and anyone who criticises this preference is 100% in the wrong.

You agree with this, yes?

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 28-01-2021 5:18pm

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Its claimed its a regular thing but very little evidence to support the claim other than lots of twitter posts

Well, lesbians have reported it happening to them on dates. Do you expect them to record those exchanges? Get people to repeat themselves so that they can record it so that you’ll believe them?

km991148 · 28-01-2021 5:18pm

Gatling wrote: »

There was several cases in the UK where women were charged with sexual assault using sex toys while in relationships with straight girls in cases long term relationships and not knowing their boyfriends were girls dressing and acting as lads .

I remember one such. I don't think it's a regular occurrence (usual caveats around quantifying unwanted behaviour in society and how blanket rules don't stop all abuse and tradegy can still occur etc)

Gatling wrote: »

If say a lesbian in a relationship and one partner decides they are a straight man ,and the other ends the relationship based off they are lesbian with no interest men ,the other self identifying man then cries transpobia against the ex partner ,who's in the wrong

I mean does it really matter what judgement you pass on this hypothetical couple?
Especially when they are tragically going through a hypothetical break up because at one stage they probably really did hypothetically love each other but the hypothetical trans man felt that they could no longer continue and came to the hypothetically heart breaking decision to end the relationship knowing that the person they hypothetically loved the most in the world would end up rejecting them because ultimately they weren't comfortable living in this new relationship.

What does right and wrong actually mean here?

Gruffalux · 28-01-2021 5:18pm

Vic_08 wrote: »

This "it only happens on twitter/the internet" is a handy way of disengaging from a topic without having to actually address it

I know! It's the latest.

One of the very first times years ago I came upon this subject was a blog a young woman had written about when she was coming out as a lesbian in some rural part of the US. The local LGBT group was run by an older trans woman. The young girl described being pressured into a sexual relationship with this older person on the basis that rejecting them would be transphobic. She had gone through a lot of trauma as a result.
A blog is as real as a memoir, or a journalist report etc. It is someone writing about their real life experience. Do we have to wait to read the scrolls certified with inky fingerprints to come in on camel back from across the desert before we can say what happens elsewhere is true?

Gatling · 28-01-2021 5:25pm

km991148 wrote: »

What does right and wrong actually mean here?

If one attack the other and labels them as transpobic,
Remember when a man self identifies as a woman and vice versa they are their chosen gender .
So in theory a lesbian becomes a straight man and a gay man who identifies as a woman becomes straight woman .

Gruffalux · 28-01-2021 5:26pm

km991148 wrote: »

I mean does it really matter what judgement you pass on this hypothetical couple?
Especially when they are tragically going through a hypothetical break up because at one stage they probably really did hypothetically love each other but the hypothetical trans man felt that they could no longer continue and came to the hypothetically heart breaking decision to end the relationship knowing that the person they hypothetically loved the most in the world would end up rejecting them because ultimately they weren't comfortable living in this new relationship.

What does right and wrong actually mean here?

You do know that when we pass laws and policy to define and protect what is right and what is wrong that we countenance and provide for the hypotheticals as far as is possible. Our law makers do not require a flesh and blood examples of every permutation to attest before them to every possible circumstance. If we did we would have to be adjusting policy non stop as per new permutations.

Or perhaps this is just a rehash of the ''has it happened to you personally'' line of argument, in which case I hope no one discusses football who has not togged out for the nation.

km991148 · 28-01-2021 5:27pm

People can say whatever preference they want. I might say no fatties or no stick insects, and the chances of success in dating will probably be impacted by how I phrase that.. I mean this stuff doesn't seem particularly hard *except* on online debates like this one.

When it comes to genitals, it's a pretty damn important area to discuss even it comes to sex. Like many other things people may or may not be attracted to or want to do in the bedroom.

km991148 · 28-01-2021 5:32pm

Gruffalux wrote: »

You do know that when we pass laws and policy to define and protect what is right and what is wrong that we countenance and provide for the hypotheticals as far as is possible. Our law makers do not require a flesh and blood examples of every permutation to attest before them to every possible circumstance. If we did we would have to be adjusting policy non stop as per new permutations.

Oh, are we talking about making laws? I thought we were just looking at ways to refer to the person who has just broken up with someone.

I have absolutely no idea where the law comes into this ludicrous situation that was described. The question was is it right or wrong to refer to the person who just ended a relationship as transphobic.. I find it hard to imagine where the law would fit into this completely made up situation.

Gruffalux wrote: »

Or perhaps this is just a rehash of the ''has it happened to you personally'' line of argument, in which case I hope no one discusses football who has not togged out for the nation.

I mean, it's really becoming a cheap shot at this stage to keep taking one phrase entirely out if context and use it to win some sort of argument.. also please educate me on football, I haven't the foggiest tbh

RandRuns · 28-01-2021 5:33pm

This is a strange thread. Posters make counterintuitive statements as if they were fact, and then just ignore any polite questioning of those statements. It seems that you either get with the programme or not.

All seems a bit pointless. Ah well.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 28-01-2021 5:34pm

Gruffalux wrote: »

You do know that when we pass laws and policy to define and protect what is right and what is wrong that we countenance and provide for the hypotheticals as far as is possible. Our law makers do not require a flesh and blood examples of every permutation to attest before them to every possible circumstance. If we did we would have to be adjusting policy non stop as per new permutations.

Or perhaps this is just a rehash of the ''has it happened to you personally'' line of argument, in which case I hope no one discusses football who has not togged out for the nation.

Indeed. One has to think about all the possible ramifications of a piece of legislation or constitutional amendment or whatever. I remember watching in awe a clip of Mary Robinson from the ‘80s where she was discussing the eighth amendment to the constitution. In that interview, she basically predicted that a scenario like the X case would result from this amendment. I’m sure people scoffed at her. Indeed her fellow panellist was quite dismissive.

All possible effects of a new law must be considered. Doesn’t matter how rare.

Gatling · 28-01-2021 5:35pm

km991148 wrote: »

When it comes to genitals, it's a pretty damn important area to discuss even it comes to sex. Like many other things people may or may not be attracted to or want to do in the bedroom.

But when could be considered /construed a hate crime your preference goes out the door ,If someone decides your not interested in because they are a self identifying male or female

km991148 · 28-01-2021 5:37pm

Gatling wrote: »

If one attack the other and labels them as transpobic,
Remember when a man self identifies as a woman and vice versa they are their chosen gender .
So in theory a lesbian becomes a straight man and a gay man who identifies as a woman becomes straight woman .

I am sorry, I really am failing to see a coherent point to this? If the couple break up and one starts calling the other transphobic... Is that based on any sort of reality?

Was it a messy breakup or not? You're going to have to give a little more depth to these characters before I can answer your question.

km991148 · 28-01-2021 5:39pm

Gatling wrote: »

But when could be considered /construed a hate crime your preference goes out the door ,If someone decides your not interested in because they are a self identifying male or female

I mean.. it just seems like more stuff to be unduly worried about.. I don't think it becomes a hate crime at any point, does it?

km991148 · 28-01-2021 5:40pm

RandRuns wrote: »

This is a strange thread. Posters make counterintuitive statements as if they were fact, and then just ignore any polite questioning of those statements. It seems that you either get with the programme or not.

All seems a bit pointless. Ah well.

It's down right surreal and really any serious point is getting lost to it.

RandRuns · 28-01-2021 5:42pm

km991148 wrote: »

It's down right surreal and really any serious point is getting lost to it.

To be fair, I was directing that at you, among others.

km991148 · 28-01-2021 5:43pm

RandRuns wrote: »

To be fair, I was directing that at you, among others.

I could have guessed, but your generalisation just added to the noise really.

If you would like to try again with some specifics on what is counterintuitive to you, feel free.

Gatling · 28-01-2021 5:43pm

km991148 wrote: »

I don't think it becomes a hate crime at any point, does it?

Oh yes it does , transpobia is apparently a hate crime and this has happening especially in Lesbian circles where men self identifying as female decide they are lesbian and when a lesbian says sorry they don't date men they get accused of being transpobic which is considered a hate crime .
Look for the thought police case - I'm a police officer and I'm ringing to check your thinking

RandRuns · 28-01-2021 5:45pm

km991148 wrote: »

I could have guessed, but your generalisation just added to the noise really.

And your continual refusal to address any questioning of your outlandish statements is just noise in of itself.

"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence"

km991148 · 28-01-2021 5:46pm

Gatling wrote: »

Oh yes it does , transpobia is apparently a hate crime and this has happening especially in Lesbian circles where men self identifying as female decide they are lesbian and when a lesbian says sorry they don't date men they get accused of being transpobi

It does, 'apparently'?

I need to start seeing some real quantative numbers on this one. I've searched around in this one.. it really does seem like an old internet tale.

Gatling · 28-01-2021 5:47pm

RandRuns wrote: »

To be fair, I was directing that at you, among others.

It's the roundabout effect .

Happens alot poster makes a claim disappears , then reappears running around in circles trying to avoid the question or questions put to them .

km991148 · 28-01-2021 5:47pm

RandRuns wrote: »

And your continual refusal to address any questioning of your outlandish statements is just noise in of itself.

"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence"

Cone on then, don't be shy.. give me some examples...!

I mean I've been absolutely bombarded with question over the entire afternoon.. but if I've missed something you feel important point it out!

km991148 · 28-01-2021 5:49pm

Gatling wrote: »

It's the roundabout effect .

Happens alot poster makes a claim disappears , then reappears running around in circles trying to avoid the question or questions put to them .

Or gets absolutely hounded until they give the "right" answer?

Yes there is a pattern on this thread, I've seen many come, try and discuss and then leave again.

Btw, what's been avoided?

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 28-01-2021 5:52pm

RandRuns wrote: »

And your continual refusal to address any questioning of your outlandish statements is just noise in of itself.

"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence"

I miss Hitchens.

Gender Identity in Modern Ireland (Mod warnings and Threadbanned Users in OP)

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