Gender Identity in Modern Ireland (Mod warnings and Threadbanned Users in OP)

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 28-01-2021 3:20pm

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

Whilst I do think ODB overreacted on this one, you can always just say non-trans.

What? ‘Non-transgender women’? That’s as bad as ‘otherwise’. But cheers for portraying me as hysterical for objecting to 51% of the world’s population basically being relegated to ‘miscellaneous’. Real cool of you, Cteven. :rolleyes:

RandRuns · 28-01-2021 3:21pm

km991148 wrote: »

One thing for sure, it was suggested earlier in this thread that this sort of scenario would give rise to some kind of underhand seedy sexual element. I don't buy that angle at all.

Out of curiosity, why not?

Do you believe sexual deviants wouldn't identify as the opposite sex (or even pretend to) in order to carry out their activities?

Do you believe there is no such thing as a transgender sexual deviant, that being transexual somehow makes it impossible?

Gruffalux · 28-01-2021 3:22pm

km991148 wrote: »

I haven't been in a swimming pool where it has been separate showers for over 30 years. Additionally everyone is fully clothed in these scenarios.

But it's a tricky question all right, and there is just enough reality about it to cause pause for thought. It really depends on the person. It's easy to say 'man'. If it's someone identifying as female and is respectful then I am tempted to say fair enough (and I expect the appropriate pitchforks to come out too). Equally I understand your earlier point about potentially sensitive scenarios involved a heavier than expected bleed or other situations, but I would assume (probably incorrectly) that this is less likely having a quick shower after a swim.
If it's a man who is not actually identifying as female at all, that's different all together.

I am really not sure there is as big an issue in this scenario as some may assume (happy for the corrections to come, thick and fast).

One thing for sure, it was suggested earlier in this thread that this sort of scenario would give rise to some kind of underhand seedy sexual element. I don't buy that angle at all.

I do not think a person who is male but who genuinely feels gender dysphoria and feels they are a woman is any problem, even in that intimate scenario. They are going through enough trouble of their own and as I have said numerous times women have always accommodated genuine transsexual women in their spaces.

I am not going to into that portion of men who have a paraphiliac desire to view themselves as women for sexual reasons - cross dressers and so on - as that complicates matters even further.

However, self identification means ANYONE (not referring to transgender people) can identify or CLAIM to identify as a woman and can therefore freely enter such intimate spaces based simply upon their claim to identify as a woman.
And yes that is a huge problem re safeguarding. And yes the problem is due to an increased risk of sexual assault.

Gatling · 28-01-2021 3:23pm

km991148 wrote: »

Often, yes.

No I'm wrong .

(Very passive aggressive )

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 28-01-2021 3:25pm

km991148 wrote: »

Nice to see we've reached the dick jokes part of the discussion at least.

And I'm accused of not taking this thread seriously. Ah well suppose it's all one big laugh isn't it?

God help anyone struggling with their gender identity reading this thread or looking for a serious viewpoint on understanding what issues are present. There are some answers in here, but you need to dig deep.

Aaaaah, where would we be without you backseat-modding the thread, person who has just started participating in it?

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 28-01-2021 3:36pm

km991148 wrote: »

I think people do have a problem with self ID (I would be of the opinion there dues seem to be some problems with the system that may need to addressed, the concept doesn't seem that bad).

I'm not sure if we can make that statement generally about the transgender community because a lot of what has been posted here is from Twitter or a few disproportionately vocal groups that form only a subset of that community.

People have a problem with self-ID allowing access to female spaces, yes. People can identify however they want. Nothing to do with me at all. UNTIL it begins to conflict with right or even just more informal protections and social mores that society deemed necessary for females. Let’s flesh this out with other consequences - can a woman who is presenting for a cervical smear or a rape exam object when the female-named doctor or nurse she heard mentioned turns out to be a male? She’s already vulnerable - why should she be put in that position? Another thing to worry about at a delicate moment. Can a woman object to an body search by a garda if it turns out that garda is male? People might say “Of COURSE she can object!” but really? The fear of being branded a bigot could well play on a woman’s mind. And again, she’s in a vulnerable position. And actually, those examples can apply to men as well. I’m sure many men would prefer to be examined by a male or searched by one, rather than a female.

Under self-ID in Ireland, these scenarios could arise. They might be rare but it doesn’t matter to the person it’s happening to that it’s rare.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 28-01-2021 3:41pm

km991148 wrote: »

Lol.. I was curious about a person's background, I didn't say anything about it stopping them from an opinion. If I remember correctly tho, I think In that post something did smack of attacking for the sake of it. But hey don't let me stop you taking something out if context several months ago if it helps you make a point!

Incidentally, care to answer why you seem to want to take delight in making people uncomfortable? And why that is 'good'?

The reason I think it’s good is because for me personally, feeling uncomfortable at a point being posited is an acknowledgment that there is logic there that is challenging a deeply held belief of mine. People don’t always react well to that discomfort but to experience it is to experience a challenge to one’s entrenched views and that’s never a bad thing. Now if someone wants to respond to that discomfort by hitting the report button, that’s their call. It’s a shame but what can you do?

km991148 · 28-01-2021 3:43pm

Gatling wrote: »

No I'm wrong .

(Very passive aggressive )

Actually I wasn't! Really, was trying to write that in a humorous way. I also can't stand grammar Nazis, especially on the internet, EXCEPT when someone is correcting me or telling me I'm wrong.. in which case I will soak up the delicious sweet irony :pac:

km991148 · 28-01-2021 3:45pm

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

The reason I think it’s good is because for me personally, feeling uncomfortable at a point being posited is an acknowledgment that there is logic there that is challenging a deeply held belief of mine. People don’t always react well to that discomfort but to experience it is to experience a challenge to one’s entrenched views and that’s never a bad thing. Now if someone wants to respond to that discomfort by hitting the report button, that’s their call. It’s a shame but what can you do?

I'd only report if I think mod action is required... Like mass deviation or offensive. A challenging point that makes one question their own beliefs or boundaries doesn't need to be either of those.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 28-01-2021 3:49pm

km991148 wrote: »

I'd only report if I think mod action is required... Like mass deviation or offensive. A challenging point that makes one question their own beliefs or boundaries doesn't need to be either of those.

Well, that’s good. I only have my suspicions because I’m not a mod but I suspect the threshold for reporting posts is far lower for some people.

Annasopra · 28-01-2021 3:53pm

km991148 wrote: »

Nice to see we've reached the dick jokes part of the discussion at least.

And I'm accused of not taking this thread seriously. Ah well suppose it's all one big laugh isn't it?

God help anyone struggling with their gender identity reading this thread or looking for a serious viewpoint on understanding what issues are present. There are some answers in here, but you need to dig deep.

I know yeah. We had a trans person in the lgbt forum recently who stumbled across trans threads in CA forum and closed their account as a result.

Gatling · 28-01-2021 3:54pm

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Let’s flesh this out with other consequences - can a woman who is presenting for a cervical smear or a rape exam object when the female-named doctor or nurse she heard mentioned turns out to be a male? She’s already vulnerable - why should she be put in that position? Another thing to worry about at a delicate moment. Can a woman object to an body search by a garda if it turns out that garda is male? People might say “Of COURSE she can object!” but really? The fear of being branded a bigot could well play on a woman’s mind. And again, she’s in a vulnerable position. And actually, those examples can apply to men as well. I’m sure many men would prefer to be examined by a male or searched by one, rather than a female.

Under self-ID in Ireland, these scenarios could arise. They might be rare but it doesn’t matter to the person it’s happening to that it’s rare.

Some of this was previously raised intimate exams and rape examination ,the replies were entb would they be bothered because they are being examined by another woman or man who self identifies as woman so why would they be unhappy or refuse to be examined by self identifying woman

I wonder why ?

km991148 · 28-01-2021 3:54pm

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

People have a problem with self-ID allowing access to female spaces, yes. People can identify however they want. Nothing to do with me at all. UNTIL it begins to conflict with right or even just more informal protections and social mores that society deemed necessary for females. Let’s flesh this out with other consequences - can a woman who is presenting for a cervical smear or a rape exam object when the female-named doctor or nurse she heard mentioned turns out to be a male? She’s already vulnerable - why should she be put in that position? Another thing to worry about at a delicate moment. Can a woman object to an body search by a garda if it turns out that garda is male? People might say “Of COURSE she can object!” but really? The fear of being branded a bigot could well play on a woman’s mind. And again, she’s in a vulnerable position. And actually, those examples can apply to men as well. I’m sure many men would prefer to be examined by a male or searched by one, rather than a female.

Under self-ID in Ireland, these scenarios could arise. They might be rare but it doesn’t matter to the person it’s happening to that it’s rare.

Yeah we discussed those hypothetical (but potentially valid) scenarios before.

Suffice it to say, the very fact that self ID causes so much heated discussion tells you that it is a tricky area, with many valid concerns.

As far as I'm aware tho - most people I know of (and it's not that many) in the trans community are regular folks that just want to get in with life and are as sensitive to these sensitive scenarios as any other person would be.

The very vocal online groups are not necessarily representative, in the same way that I'm sure many of you on the 'GC' side (whatever the f that means) aren't represented by those making vile remarks about trans people.

The part that really seems to get people going is (rightly) when such a system is open to abuse (the often spoken about prison scenario for example). Now I have no idea how much actual fraud is present, but if any, there should absolutely be systems in place to prevent that. That might not mean doing away with something like self ID completely, but it might mean changes to the system.

Remember: this is my take, as someone who is fairly innocent to the working practices of such a system, so as usual sorry if offensive or ignorant.

Gruffalux · 28-01-2021 3:55pm

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

I know yeah. We had a trans person in the lgbt forum recently who stumbled across trans threads in CA forum and closed their account as a result.

Well if it is any help I have closed accounts in the past because I thought the vibe was arseholey-ish by times in different places and I could not be ...well, arsed. That is also life.

RandRuns · 28-01-2021 3:57pm

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

I know yeah. We had a trans person in the lgbt forum recently who stumbled across trans threads in CA forum and closed their account as a result.

For better or worse, one will constantly come across opinions expressed on the internet that are not in line with how one thinks themselves.

Perhaps if one is too sensitive to view these opinions, one should either stick rigidly to only viewing forums that align exactly with ones viewpoint, or stay off the internet altogether.

Gatling · 28-01-2021 3:57pm

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

I know yeah. We had a trans person in the lgbt forum recently who stumbled across trans threads in CA forum and closed their account as a result.

You made various claims were found to be untrue ,so when you claim you know someone who closed an account here after reading a thread ,
it's another antidotal pinch of salt

km991148 · 28-01-2021 3:59pm

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Aaaaah, where would we be without you backseat-modding the thread, person who has just started participating in it?

Ha, I'm fake carding you for that :pac:

A lot if comments to me have felt like an attack tbh, especially the name calling and accusations. What can I say, I get annoyed sometimes?

Incidentally, I was around near the start (cmon, I caused a stink back then too, have you forgotten??) and I have been in read only mode due to the circular nature of this thread and it's potential for head wreckage.

Gruffalux · 28-01-2021 3:59pm

km991148 wrote: »

Yeah we discussed those hypothetical (but potentially valid) scenarios before.

Suffice it to say, the very fact that self ID causes so much heated discussion tells you that it is a tricky area, with many valid concerns.

As far as I'm aware tho - most people I know of (and it's not that many) in the trans community are regular folks that just want to get in with life and are as sensitive to these sensitive scenarios as any other person would be.

The very vocal online groups are not necessarily representative, in the same way that I'm sure many of you on the 'GC' side (whatever the f that means) aren't represented by those making vile remarks about trans people.

The part that really seems to get people going is (rightly) when such a system is open to abuse (the often spoken about prison scenario for example). Now I have no idea how much actual fraud is present, but if any, there should absolutely be systems in place to prevent that. That might not mean doing away with something like self ID completely, but it might mean changes to the system.

Remember: this is my take, as someone who is fairly innocent to the working practices of such a system, so as usual sorry if offensive or ignorant.

Again your views would not be acceptable to trans activists.

Another question - do you think it is biological essentialism to prefer your potential sexual partners to have the genitals to which you are sexually attracted? Do you think genital preference is a valid thing? Do you think a male-bodied person can describe themselves as a lesbian and claim it is transphobic for lesbians to exclude them from their dating pool? Do you think homosexuality means SAME SEX attraction?

Gatling · 28-01-2021 4:01pm

km991148 wrote: »

A lot if comments to me have felt like an attack tbh, especially the name calling and accusations. What can I say, I get annoyed sometimes?

Did you miss the name calling and labeling by people who were repeatedly asked not to .

RWCNT · 28-01-2021 4:02pm

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

So your solution was to not even name us? We’re just “otherwise”. THAT’S better? Women and transgender women. That’s all you need to say. If the sloganeering says “transgender women are women!” why would that be offensive? That slogan already acknowledges the difference.

And yes, I will point out utter dreck when I see it. Thank you. You’re going for condescension there but I’m very glad to highlight the nonsense.

I don't think anyone would have taken offence, I do think someone may have responded with that slogan and started a tedious argument over it which I've seen occur in other threads here and wider social media.

I can see where you're coming from but I've no time for this making-an-issue-out-of-language-divorced-from-intent stuff from anybody on any side of any argument. If you do believe my post's poor wording betrays some sort of ill intent or misogyny on my part, well, you can believe that. Whatever insights you feel you have into the inner workings of my mind are not my business. Have a good one.

km991148 · 28-01-2021 4:05pm

Gruffalux wrote: »

Again your views would not be acceptable to trans activists.

Another question - do you think it is biological essentialism to prefer your potential sexual partners to have the genitals to which you are sexually attracted? Do you think genital preference is a valid thing? Do you think a male-bodied person can describe themselves as a lesbian and claim it is transphobic for lesbians to exclude them from their dating pool? Do you think homosexuality means SAME SEX attraction?

I don't really care what activists think? Why is that important?

The famous lesbian question: I think it's important that any two or more people who are close enough to each other to have sex should be as open and honest as each other as possible, no matter how they identify.

I would be very much curious as to how many people are actually in thus situation tho, or how often it happens? It *seems* to me like another internet trope (I'm not denying it has happened, I'm sure it has and there is even a porn version of the story too! and of course anyone who had been decieved in such a way has my full sympathy as it must be unsettling at least)

Feel free to let the fireworks begin and educate as to why I am wrong and this is a much bigger issue then I thought..

km991148 · 28-01-2021 4:07pm

RWCNT wrote: »

I don't think anyone would have taken offence, I do think someone may have responded with that slogan and started a tedious argument over it which I've seen occur in other threads here and wider social media.

I can see where you're coming from but I've no time for this making-an-issue-out-of-language-divorced-from-intent stuff from anybody on any side of any argument. If you do believe my post's wording betrays some sort of ill intent or misogyny on my part, well, you can believe that. Whatever insights you feel you have into the inner workings of my mind are not my business. Have a good one.

In the middle of a conversation about trying to frustrate conversation no less!

This would exactly the think I would say report for.. let the mods decide if offence was intended via pm etc..

Of course its on thread now.. but in future..

km991148 · 28-01-2021 4:09pm

Gatling wrote: »

Did you miss the name calling and labeling by people who were repeatedly asked not to .

I guess so, but I can only feel offended by the stuff that attacks me and offends me directly.

But because other people have called other people names, I'm somehow fair game?

Gruffalux · 28-01-2021 4:13pm

RWCNT wrote: »

I don't think anyone would have taken offence, I do think someone may have responded with that slogan and started a tedious argument over it which I've seen occur in other threads here and wider social media.

I can see where you're coming from but I've no time for this making-an-issue-out-of-language-divorced-from-intent stuff from anybody on any side of any argument. If you do believe my post's wording betrays some sort of ill intent or misogyny on my part, well, you can believe that. Whatever insights you feel you have into the inner workings of my mind are not my business. Have a good one.

I don't think you are a misogynist - I find you generally a good and good-humoured poster even though we often disagree. But I presume you would not like to be referred to as a non straight man? Or a non woman? A non child? It is just odd isn't it. Women are women, and then people who identify as women can be whatever name suits them, trans women being the one that inherently has the meaning that the person has identified as being OPPOSITE to their natal sex. In fact to be honest I think TRAs are gonna wake up soon enough and say whoa this word trans is transphobic!

Gruffalux · 28-01-2021 4:18pm

km991148 wrote: »

I don't really care what activists think? Why is that important?

The famous lesbian question: I think it's important that any two or more people who are close enough to each other to have sex should be as open and honest as each other as possible, no matter how they identify.

I would be very much curious as to how many people are actually in thus situation tho, or how often it happens? It *seems* to me like another internet trope (I'm not denying it has happened, I'm sure it has and there is even a porn version of the story too! and of course anyone who had been decieved in such a way has my full sympathy as it must be unsettling at least)

Feel free to let the fireworks begin and educate as to why I am wrong and this is a much bigger issue then I thought..

I cannot respond when you have not answered the question. You have suggested it does not happen - it does. You have suggested people who are going to have sex be honest and open which each other - that is not the question.
So - Is genital preference, off the bat, out of the starting gates, in your dating app bio, etc okay in your opinion?
Like if I don't want to be up close to a pussy no matter how nice the guy is who has a pussy, and I let it be known right at the door when we are throwing the car keys in the fruit bowl, no pussies for me thanks!!, then am I transphobic?

km991148 · 28-01-2021 4:26pm

Gruffalux wrote: »

I cannot respond when you have not answered the question. You have suggested it does not happen - it does. You have suggested people who are going to have sex be honest and open which each other - that is not the question.
So - Is genital preference, off the bat, out of the starting gates, in your dating app bio, etc okay in your opinion?
Like if I don't want to be up close to a pussy no matter how nice the guy is who has a pussy, and I let it be known right at the door when we are throwing the car keys in the fruit bowl, no pussies for me thanks!!, then am I transphobic?

What is your question? There were lots of them mixed in with some sweeping generalisations and hypothesis.

I find it hard to imagine that there is a big issue around lesbians getting constantly surprised by a penis in the bedroom. I'm not saying no one has ever been deceived ever, but what else do you want me to say? Do you want to keep pushing the example to the point where I am forced into saying lesbian have to accept dick and therefore I'm some degenerate because of some extreme example..?

I don't know how you leap from having one sexual preference (and honestly discussing that) to being a transphobe?

To be clear and crude about it - I think if you have a no dick rule then you have a no dick rule... regardless of who that dick is attached to, but again I find it hard to imagine (generally) any two people getting that far in relations and it 'popping up' (pun absolutely intended) at the last minute.

Yes of course some people lie, but that happens in dating anyway..

Edit2: like who actually (in the main) *wants* to start a relationship based on lies. Who wants to keep secrets about a big issue such as that and therefore keep getting rejected based on those? It could only serve all parties involved to be honest about something like that.. no matter what you identify as.

Gruffalux · 28-01-2021 4:36pm

km991148 wrote: »

What is your question? There were lots of them mixed in with some sweeping generalisations and hypothesis.

I find it hard to imagine that there is a big issue around lesbians getting constantly surprised by a penis in the bedroom. I'm not saying no one has ever been deceived ever, but what else do you want me to say? Do you want to keep pushing the example to the point where I am forced into saying lesbian have to accept dick and therefore I'm some degenerate because of some extreme example..?

I don't know how you leap from having one sexual preference (and honestly discussing that) to being a transphobe?

To be clear and crude about it - I think if you have a no dick rule then you have a no dick rule... regardless if who that dick is attached to, but again I find it hard to imagine (generally) any two people getting that far in relations and it 'popping up' (pun absolutely intended) at the last minute.

Yes of course some people lie, but that happens in dating anyway..

Okay. So genital preference in the dating pool is not transphobic in your opinion and I am going to presume you believe homosexuality is same SEX attraction. We agree, so.
But that is considered transphobic.

km991148 · 28-01-2021 4:39pm

Gruffalux wrote: »

Okay. So genital preference in the dating pool is not transphobic in your opinion and I am going to presume you believe homosexuality is same SEX attraction. We agree, so.
But that is considered transphobic.

I mean, sure simplify away there, but what is your alternative (lesbians being forced into sex they don't want?)? Who considers that transphobic? It seems pretty far fetched that this is a regular thing. Happy (well actually not happy) to stand corrected.

I think the more labels used, the less they are helpful tbh

Gruffalux · 28-01-2021 4:51pm

km991148 wrote: »

I mean, sure simplify away there, but what is your alternative? Who considers that transphobic?

I think the more labels used, the less they are helpful tbh

Did you ever think of becoming a politician

I did not start using labels like transphobic or trans anything. It predates my awareness of any of this malarkey. It is still considered transphobic by posters on this thread to pause at the idea of sharing intimate spaces with those who self identify as a gender, to wonder if the gender self identity laws should be constrained to avoid any abuse or awkwardness in prisons, and refuges etc, and to have an ab initio preference for genitals that belong to a certain sex.

Annasopra · 28-01-2021 4:52pm

km991148 wrote: »

I mean, sure simplify away there, but what is your alternative (lesbians being forced into sex they don't want?)? Who considers that transphobic? It seems pretty far fetched that this is a regular thing. Happy (well actually not happy) to stand corrected.

I think the more labels used, the less they are helpful tbh

Its claimed its a regular thing but very little evidence to support the claim other than lots of twitter posts

Gender Identity in Modern Ireland (Mod warnings and Threadbanned Users in OP)

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