What exactly is happening with AstraZeneca?

mick087 · 28-01-2021 12:02AM

Wolf359f wrote: »

The EU also invested secured and paid for the vaccine.

Yes they did but they did this after other countries had already paid for the vaccine. They was slow on this is the issue. The EU have still not approved this vaccine.

Are you happy with what we know so far on how the EU commission have handled and acquired this vaccine?

Kermit.de.frog · 28-01-2021 12:04AM

Wolf359f wrote: »

How have the EU messed it up? The production delay is on AZ's side, the EU purchases the vaccines they don't actually produce them.

Brexit Britain getting 2 million doses a week from AZ while the EU is on it's backside with countries going off doing their own thing.

Not a great look, is it? It's incompetence from the EU side at best. I can't see that the UK has done anything wrong tbh.

hotmail.com · 28-01-2021 12:05AM

Call me Al wrote: »

Yes, because everybody will forget about over the 100k deaths to date in UK due to Covid-19 as long as they've got one over the EU.

From an Irish point of view, I doubt many care about Brexit or politics of it all. We just want the vaccine.

We clearly can't rely on the EU this time. Ministers have to make clever decisions now and do whatever it takes to jump the queue.

The public will thank them.

mick087 · 28-01-2021 12:06AM

Wolf359f wrote: »

How have the EU messed it up? The production delay is on AZ's side, the EU purchases the vaccines they don't actually produce them.

When other countries was buying and investing The EU commission was still negotiating a better deal. But as we have been told this is not a queue at the butcher shop. So it will be interesting to see what happens next.

Call me Al · 28-01-2021 12:10AM

hotmail.com wrote: »

......
The public will thank them.

Indeed! That's my point. It will be heralded as a victory in many of their media outlets.
Many in the British public will choose to forget or ignore that they've got one of the worst death rates in the world. They've over 100,000 deaths.
That's the scandal for the UK right now.

E mac · 28-01-2021 12:12AM

Call me Al wrote: »

Yes, because everybody will forget about over the 100k deaths to date in UK due to Covid-19 as long as they've got one over the EU.

Daily Mail and its readership won’t care as long as it’s getting one over the EU. I’m not trying to argue their point just to show the ridiculousness of their mindset. “EU can’t have our vaccines”

Bit cynical · 28-01-2021 12:13AM

E mac wrote: »

If allegedly the UK did secure vaccinations meant for the EU it would be the biggest popularity boost Boris Johnston could hope for. He’d be up there with Churchill.

Sure, and if that is the case it would be a boost for Boris. Which is why the EU probably won't make a deal out of it if they are clever.

But if the UK ordered X million does from AZ and then received that number from AZ how would the UK have known that those vaccines were bound for the EU. Surely that is a matter between AZ and the EU?

It is like if Ireland bought some product from a Russian company and then Azerbaijan started piping up that they should have got those things, how would that be the fault of Ireland?

mick087 · 28-01-2021 12:15AM

hotmail.com wrote: »

From an Irish point of view, I doubt many care about Brexit or politics of it all. We just want the vaccine.

We clearly can't rely on the EU this time. Ministers have to make clever decisions now and do whatever it takes to jump the queue.

The public will thank them.

Yes 90% of people not only in Ireland but all EU states in fact all countries around the world don't care about the politics they just want the vaccine.

We in Europe will or should have the vaccine sometime this year.

Some countries id say could be waiting years i hope not but it could be the case.
Its not just the EU messed up all countries have, this should of been and could of been a joint effort from the start. We now have seen that there was a race to get the vaccine and our representatives was late out the starting block.
There are other vaccines that will be coming out, when i don't know but hopefully lessons have been learned.

mick087 · 28-01-2021 12:19AM

Call me Al wrote: »

Indeed! That's my point. It will be heralded as a victory in many of their media outlets.
Many in the British public will choose to forget or ignore that they've got one of the worst death rates in the world. They've over 100,000 deaths.
That's the scandal for the UK right now.

I don't think 100 000 deaths will go away very easy.
When and if things get back to normal many questions by many familes are going to be asked.

E mac · 28-01-2021 12:19AM

Bit cynical wrote: »

Sure, and if that is the case it would be a boost for Boris. Which is why the EU probably won't make a deal out of it if they are clever.

But if the UK ordered X million does from AZ and then received that number from AZ how would the UK have known that those vaccines were bound for the EU. Surely that is a matter between AZ and the EU?

It is like if Ireland bought some product from a Russian company and then Azerbaijan started piping up that they should have got those things, how would that be the fault of Ireland?

I guess we’re assuming their was political pressure put on AZ by the UK government to keep UK produced vaccines “in country “. Most likely rubbish but it’s a narrative that’s fuelled by brexit and media.

Wolf359f · 28-01-2021 12:24AM

mick087 wrote: »

Yes they did but they did this after other countries had already paid for the vaccine. They was slow on this is the issue. The EU have still not approved this vaccine.

Are you happy with what we know so far on how the EU commission have handled and acquired this vaccine?

Very few countries have approved this vaccine and those who have have dedicated supply lines, UK's was supposed to soely from UK plants, EU, from EU and UK plants and then India looking after alot of other countries. The agreement was while AZ was still conducting trials they would use the money the EU paid to stockpile doses, once AZ applied for approval and once the EU approved it, they would be ready to ship.

Sounds like a sound plan. Apart from AZ now saying they don't have what was agreed but they have shipped doses from the EU factories worldwide, at least 4mil to the UK.
The EU want to know if these shipments were from the EU stockpile. AZ haven't given an answer yet.

I don't see how this blame comes down on the EU. We keep hearing about approval this and that. Well AZ only a few weeks ago decided to apply to the EMA for approval. The EMA cannot approve a vaccine without the manufacturer applying for it. Perhaps AZ purposely delayed approval while trying to bolster stocks to the EU woudkn't notice? There's definitely more to the story for sure.

hotmail.com · 28-01-2021 12:28AM

Call me Al wrote: »

Indeed! That's my point. It will be heralded as a victory in many of their media outlets.
Many in the British public will choose to forget or ignore that they've got one of the worst death rates in the world. They've over 100,000 deaths.
That's the scandal for the UK right now.

Irish media will happily use their awful death toll to disguise their obvious success in getting the vaccine and getting it out quick.

Their internal failings and delays over locking down is for them to argue over.

We need a vaccine and quick. Time for us to suck it up and beg the UK for a donation of their supply.

fly_agaric · 28-01-2021 12:30AM

hotmail.com wrote: »

From an Irish point of view, I doubt many care about Brexit or politics of it all. We just want the vaccine.

We clearly can't rely on the EU this time. Ministers have to make clever decisions now and do whatever it takes to jump the queue.

The public will thank them.

For my part I'd be more than a bit queasy if Ireland "jumps the queue" (implies doing something unethical?) to get hands on the Western vaccines the EU has already pre-ordered and that shafted some other EU countries that are less wealthy than Ireland.

While the virus is awful, and I'm no anti-vaxxer I also don't really fancy some shots of the SinoVac or Sputnik vaccines given emergency authorisation for use by Ireland after no testing at all in the EU or the US (afair).

If the boards Eurosceptic legion want the Irish government to follow Orban and start rolling these ones out...rather your arm than mine! :eek:

mick087 · 28-01-2021 12:30AM

Wolf359f wrote: »

Very few countries have approved this vaccine and those who have have dedicated supply lines, UK's was supposed to soely from UK plants, EU, from EU and UK plants and then India looking after alot of other countries. The agreement was while AZ was still conducting trials they would use the money the EU paid to stockpile doses, once AZ applied for approval and once the EU approved it, they would be ready to ship.

Sounds like a sound plan. Apart from AZ now saying they don't have what was agreed but they have shipped doses from the EU factories worldwide, at least 4mil to the UK.
The EU want to know if these shipments were from the EU stockpile. AZ haven't given an answer yet.

I don't see how this blame comes down on the EU. We keep hearing about approval this and that. Well AZ only a few weeks ago decided to apply to the EMA for approval. The EMA cannot approve a vaccine without the manufacturer applying for it. Perhaps AZ purposely delayed approval while trying to bolster stocks to the EU woudkn't notice? There's definitely more to the story for sure.

Are you happy with what we know so far on how the EU commission have handled and acquired this vaccine?

Wolf359f · 28-01-2021 12:33AM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Brexit Britain getting 2 million doses a week from AZ while the EU is on it's backside with countries going off doing their own thing.

Not a great look, is it? It's incompetence from the EU side at best. I can't see that the UK has done anything wrong tbh.

Yes 2 mil doses a week from UK factory's as per the UK contract (excluding the 4mil AZ sourced from EU factory's initially as the UK factories had issues at the start)

The whole idea with the EU deal was AZ was paid in advance and would stockpile vaccine until the EU approve it. There seems to be some issues there, low yield and millions of doses exported, so the EU have asked and seem to be still waiting for an explanation.

I've never said the UK have done anything wrong at all. I don't even see how the UK fits into it apart from the EU contract stating the UK and EU sites will be used to supply the EU order.

Wolf359f · 28-01-2021 12:35AM

mick087 wrote: »

Are you happy with what we know so far on how the EU commission have handled and acquired this vaccine?

I don't see how they could have done anything different. Approving it weeks ago would still not have had the doses magically appear. So I guess I'm indifferent until I know more.

Melanchthon · 28-01-2021 12:41AM

Wolf359f wrote: »

I don't see how this blame comes down on the EU. We keep hearing about approval this and that. Well AZ only a few weeks ago decided to apply to the EMA for approval. The EMA cannot approve a vaccine without the manufacturer applying for it. Perhaps AZ purposely delayed approval while trying to bolster stocks to the EU woudkn't notice? There's definitely more to the story for sure.

This all seems to be true but I think that's why it's going to get so messy. The UK might genuinely have an first preference on X amount of orders from Astra Zeneca written in the strongest terms, to their mind it won't matter what Astra Zeneca signed afterwards and they will have a point, it was developed by Oxford and they pumped a lot of money into it and selected astra zeneca for a secure supply, specifically not a American company because of exactly this issue.

Even if Borris Johnson wanted too divert enough supplies to make up the shortfall I am not sure he could, the EU shortfall is massive and he would get eaten alive, imagine what the papers would say if pensioners weren't getting their second dose because he agreed to send it to the EU.

Maybe if UK production hits full tilt they can divert some of it but I am not just saying this to attack the EU when I think that Borris would be gone if there is significant diversions at the minute from the UK.

mick087 · 28-01-2021 12:46AM

Wolf359f wrote: »

I don't see how they could have done anything different. Approving it weeks ago would still not have had the doses magically appear. So I guess I'm indifferent until I know more.

So your at least open that the EU commission could of screwed up and got it wrong?

Wolf359f · 28-01-2021 12:49AM

Melanchthon wrote: »

This all seems to be true but I think that's why it's going to get so messy. The UK might genuinely have an first preference on X amount of orders from Astra Zeneca written in the strongest terms, to their mind it won't matter what Astra Zeneca signed afterwards and they will have a point, it was developed by Oxford and they pumped a lot of money into it and selected astra zeneca for a secure supply, specifically not a American company because of exactly this issue.

Even if Borris Johnson wanted too divert enough supplies to make up the shortfall I am not sure he could, the EU shortfall is massive and he would get eaten alive, imagine what the papers would say if pensioners weren't getting their second dose because he agreed to send it to the EU.

Maybe if UK production hits full tilt they can divert some of it but I am not just saying this to attack the EU when I think that Borris would be gone if there is significant diversions at the minute from the UK.

It's definitely a strange one and with contracts not being made public it's all wild speculation. If there is a clause in the UK contract for x amount to be given to the UK first, that wouldn't explain how other countries have been getting some supplies (assuming it wasn't just the UK getting supplies from the EU factories)

It would also be a little sloppy on AZ's side if they didn't make the EU aware about conflicting clauses.

Wolf359f · 28-01-2021 12:50AM

mick087 wrote: »

So your at least open that the EU commission could of screwed up and got it wrong?

I don't know all the facts, but for some, lack of facts don't seem to stop them jumping on the anti-Eu side or Brit bashing etc...

mick087 · 28-01-2021 12:56AM

Wolf359f wrote: »

I don't know all the facts, but for some, lack of facts don't seem to stop them jumping on the anti-Eu side or Brit bashing etc...

Yes many facts are still to come out and we do all need more information.
There are other vaccines coming but this particular vaccine was like a beacon of light to so many people, to me its a big let down.

josip · 28-01-2021 12:58AM

Wolf359f wrote: »

It's definitely a strange one and with contracts not being made public it's all wild speculation. If there is a clause in the UK contract for x amount to be given to the UK first, that wouldn't explain how other countries have been getting some supplies (assuming it wasn't just the UK getting supplies from the EU factories)

It would also be a little sloppy on AZ's side if they didn't make the EU aware about conflicting clauses.

But there may not have been conflicting clauses if production ended up on the optimistic side of the possible range.
It seems to me that AZ happily took the maximum on offer from both the EU and UK and hoped for the best.
Instead of taking less money and building in some contractual contingency.
So the EU and the UK probably have sound, valid contracts and they would both be fully within their rights to insist on the contracts being fulfilled.
But AZ can't fulfill both.
So it's either going to be possession is 9/10 of the law or big dog wins.

micosoft · 28-01-2021 01:09AM

NeuralNetwork wrote: »

In the big scheme of things, what the UK tabloids might or might not write is entirely irrelevant both AstraZeneca and the EU and I think trying to link this to Brexit is also nonsense. The world doesn't revolve around that topic.

It's a contractual dispute, plain and simple. If there's an issue, there's an issue. If there isn't there isn't. It's really as simple as that.

It's a contractual dispute with some pretty major geopolitical implications...
- Competence of EU in eyes of citizenry
- Ensuring cohesion among EU states over next year on Covid related activities from heath to economic
- The suspicion that the UK is acting yet again in bad faith in its dealings with the EU

It's about as much a "contractual dispute" as the Ilyushin IL2 was a "contractual dispute" with Stalin.

You have let down our country and our Red Army. You have the nerve not to manufacture IL-2s until now. Our Red Army now needs IL-2 aircraft like the air it breathes, like the bread it eats. Shenkman produces one IL-2 a day and Tretyakov builds one or two MiG-3s daily. It is a mockery of our country and the Red Army. I ask you not to try the government's patience, and demand that you manufacture more ILs. This is my final warning.

— Stalin

jimmycrackcorm · 28-01-2021 01:12AM

micosoft wrote: »

It's a contractual dispute with some pretty major geopolitical implications...
- Competence of EU in eyes of citizenry
- Ensuring cohesion among EU states over next year on Covid related activities from heath to economic
- The suspicion that the UK is acting yet again in bad faith in its dealings with the EU

It's about as much a "contractual dispute" as the Ilyushin IL2 was a "contractual dispute" with Stalin.

You have let down our country and our Red Army. You have the nerve not to manufacture IL-2s until now. Our Red Army now needs IL-2 aircraft like the air it breathes, like the bread it eats. Shenkman produces one IL-2 a day and Tretyakov builds one or two MiG-3s daily. It is a mockery of our country and the Red Army. I ask you not to try the government's patience, and demand that you manufacture more ILs. This is my final warning.

— Stalin

It's a contractual dispute where AZ took the EU money, committed in a contract to deliver and have been found since to not because they decided to not honour that contract by diverting their production. Simple as.

micosoft · 28-01-2021 01:15AM

hotmail.com wrote: »

From an Irish point of view, I doubt many care about Brexit or politics of it all. We just want the vaccine.

We clearly can't rely on the EU this time. Ministers have to make clever decisions now and do whatever it takes to jump the queue.

The public will thank them.

And what happens when Germany, France, Belgium, Italy all decide to jump the queue too? And then we discover we are 14 or 15 back?

I mean, apart from being an appallingly unethical idea that we show no solidarity with poorer EU countries, it is just not a clever idea because the other EU countries aren't stupid and have managed (the not very difficult task) of looking one step further on your logic. That logic would mean everybody would lose badly and vaccines would take much much longer in a chaotic free for all.

This is aside from the absurd fallacy that we can't somehow trust the EU because one supplier have not delivered on their commitments.

micosoft · 28-01-2021 01:20AM

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

It's a contractual dispute where AZ took the EU money, committed in a contract to deliver and have been found since to not because they decided to not honour that contract by diverting their production. Simple as.

I get that. I agree with that. But to say that this is just an ordinary contractual dispute does not do any justice to the very real geo-political implications. Governments can and will overrule any contractual law if they feel the foundation of the state is at risk. Looking at the riots in Netherlands and the language being used by the politicians, if I were on the board of AZ I would not be thinking that the shield of contract law will be any protection at all. My surprise is that the CEO has not recognised that shift. AZ need to not look like they shafted every government in the EU and the Commission quickly.

NSAman · 28-01-2021 01:26AM

micosoft wrote: »

And what happens when Germany, France, Belgium, Italy all decide to jump the queue too? And then we discover we are 14 or 15 back?

I mean, apart from being an appallingly unethical idea that we show no solidarity with poorer EU countries, it is just not a clever idea because the other EU countries aren't stupid and have managed (the not very difficult task) of looking one step further on your logic which means everybody will lose badly and vaccines will take much much longer in a chaotic free for all.

This is aside from the absurd fallacy that we can't somehow trust the EU because one supplier have not delivered on their commitments.

I don’t think it is an absurd fallacy at all. The EU have to prove that they were in control of the situation. A lot is riding on this. The centralisation of ordering is always going to be a Bad idea..imho. The EU is in charge of this distribution and ordering policy. It has gone bad, they obviously are screaming. The UK obviously sanctioned this vaccine before the EU. That much is evident.

The contracts which I am very surprised have not been publicly available, will clear up who is right and who is wrong in this scenario.

I am neither pro or anti any side. But, my gut is telling me the EU has f**ked up rightly here and is now looking to pass blame.

If they don’t get their way, their credibility is at stake!

noodler · 28-01-2021 01:29AM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Brexit Britain getting 2 million doses a week from AZ while the EU is on it's backside with countries going off doing their own thing.

Not a great look, is it? It's incompetence from the EU side at best. I can't see that the UK has done anything wrong tbh.

What?

kona · 28-01-2021 01:30AM

Ireland would want to use the experience of being ****ed over by the eu 10 years ago, extract the ****ing finger and secure our own supplies. This isnt a q for communion.

Donald Trump · 28-01-2021 02:30AM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Brexit Britain getting 2 million doses a week from AZ while the EU is on it's backside with countries going off doing their own thing.

Not a great look, is it? It's incompetence from the EU side at best. I can't see that the UK has done anything wrong tbh.

How much do you think the UK messed up last year?

https://www.ft.com/content/6ccff5f5-834d-43b7-84e4-82ec3bb3ab06

FT Nov. 4th 2020 wrote:

AstraZeneca has fallen far short of its target to deliver 30m Covid-19 vaccine doses to the UK by the end of September and will be able to supply only 4 per cent of what it promised by the end of the year, according to the head of the government’s vaccine taskforce.

I wonder if we looked at your posts from last Nov would we see similar language about the UK incompetence? :cool:

What exactly is happening with AstraZeneca?

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