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Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

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  • Options
    #302
    sondagefaux
    Registered Users Posts: 1,443 ✭✭✭sondagefaux


    Oh dear, Brexit has turned out to be a pig in a poke for British pig farmers.

    Not only are they having major problems getting their pigs to EU markets, they're also having to keep pigs on their farms longer and feed them with increasingly expensive feed.

    Now the pig farmers want a bailout and they want UK retailers to try to push sales of cuts of pig meat that aren't popular in the UK, but sre in the EU.

    Greedy pigs trying to make up for the pig's ear of Brexit...
    More than 100,000 British pigs stranded by Brexit border problems
    ...

    The National Pig Association wrote to George Eustice, the environment secretary, last week asking him to convene an urgent meeting with processors and retailers in the face of “higher costs, falling prices and a shrinking market”.

    “Most pig processors expect to enter a lossmaking situation in the first quarter of 2021,” Richard Lister, chairman of the National Pig Association, said in the letter.

    ...

    The NPA said pig farmers had been hit by a combination of factors including bureaucratic delays resulting in pork exports dropping to a quarter of normal volumes.

    “The overall picture is now one of enormous disruption to our export supply chain but of minimal problems and relative ease for EU imports into the UK,” Mr Lister said in his letter.

    ...

    Rob Mutimer, a Norfolk pig farmer whose Swannington Farm to Fork sends older sows to Germany for salami, said border delays meant EU businesses risked turning to other countries for reliable supply.

    “If we don’t get this trade flow issue sorted out then we’ll lose these markets that have been around all my lifetime. If UK suppliers are not reliable, then German factories will go elsewhere,” he said.

    The disruption of trade was causing costly backlogs on his farm, he added, with 2,000 pigs now awaiting slaughter — all of which must be fed with expensive animal feeds.

    ...

    The UK both imports and exports pork because British consumers eat different parts of the pig from those in the EU; the UK imports bacon, while exporting pigs’ ears and heads, said Nick Allen, chief executive of the British Meat Processors Association.

    ...

    As a first step, the pig industry wants retailers to agree to prioritise sales of UK pork and push to sell the less popular cuts.

    https://www.ft.com/content/be929057-2bbf-4cfc-9106-11665b180824

    Also worth reading:

    https://mobile.twitter.com/GroverXV/status/1054649927123517440


  • Options
    #303
    schmoo2k
    Registered Users Posts: 1,379 ✭✭✭schmoo2k


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    We await the EMA certification of the AZ vaccine. If they come out with a limit on the age of recipients, say below 65, and a specification the the two jab, 21 day regime must be followed, then that is not what the UK are pursuing.

    We shall see. If it turns out the 90 day regime fails to protect sufficiently, how many doses will they have wasted?

    If it turns out the 90 day regime extends to 180 days without issue how many lives will they have saved? - Mods need to do better.


  • Options
    #304
    schmoo2k
    Registered Users Posts: 1,379 ✭✭✭schmoo2k


    And to clarify - if the EU say its ok to do half dose + full dose follow-up (and vice versa) after 3 days or 200 days then that is what we should do.


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    #305
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,009 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    forgottenhills wrote: »
    Did you read the long and very informative interview with the AstraZeneca CEO posted yesterday on Italian media?

    Here is a quote from his interview:

    "First of all, we believe that the efficacy of one dose is sufficient: 100 percent protection against severe disease and hospitalisation, and 71-73 percent of efficacy overall. The second dose is needed for long term protection. But you get a better efficiency if you get the 2nd dose later than earlier. We are going to do a study in the US and globally to use two-month dose interval to confirm that this is indeed the case, there are many reasons to believe it is the case with our vaccine. We have a different technology. First of all, when you look at level of antibody production, this is higher if you give the second dose three months or two months later than one month later. "

    It is a very complex area and the short time frame of development means that nobody seems sure what the best approach is for now.
    That may be true of the AZ vaccine, but not necessarily the same with Pfizer which the UK is also delaying the second dose of. The danger here is that they could develop a more vaccine resistant strain of the virus by not following the protocol.


  • Options
    #306
    yagan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,560 ✭✭✭yagan


    forgottenhills wrote: »
    It is a very complex area and the short time frame of development means that nobody seems sure what the best approach is for now.
    AZ are indemnified against all claims in the UK so it's easy for them shrug off their three week advisory.


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  • Options
    #307
    yagan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,560 ✭✭✭yagan


    schmoo2k wrote: »
    And to clarify - if the EU say its ok to do half dose + full dose follow-up (and vice versa) after 3 days or 200 days then that is what we should do.
    Half does doesn't protect vulnerable groups entirely, there's already been reports of first shot recipients still contracting severe cases of Covid19 and more importantly they can still pass it on to others.

    Sticking to the tested benchmark is the best course.


  • Options
    #308
    Professor Moriarty
    Registered Users Posts: 14,359 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    Just a few headlines from The Telegraph right now.

    An op ed piece by Nigel Farage:
    "Finally, the country is seeing the EU for what it is: nasty, vindictive and nationalistic"

    Op ed by Jeremy Warner:
    "How dare they accuse AstraZeneca of deliberately dishonouring the EU"

    Op ed by Liam Halligan:
    "The EU's vaccine fiasco threatens the very future of Project Europe"


  • Options
    #309
    Strazdas
    Registered Users Posts: 17,980 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    Professor Moriarty wrote: »
    Just a few headlines from The Telegraph right now.

    An op ed piece by Nigel Farage:
    "Finally, the country is seeing the EU for what it is: nasty, vindictive and nationalistic"

    Op ed by Jeremy Warner:
    "How dare they accuse AstraZeneca of deliberately dishonouring the EU"

    Op ed by Liam Halligan:
    "The EU's vaccine fiasco threatens the very future of Project Europe"

    This was totally predictable. 'Vaccine nationalism' was always going to go down an absolute treat with the Brexiteers : they love their flag waving and jingoism.

    The 100k UK dead will barely even register with them.


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    #310
    sondagefaux
    Registered Users Posts: 1,443 ✭✭✭sondagefaux


    Professor Moriarty wrote: »
    Just a few headlines from The Telegraph right now.

    An op ed piece by Nigel Farage:
    "Finally, the country is seeing the EU for what it is: nasty, vindictive and nationalistic"

    Op ed by Jeremy Warner:
    "How dare they accuse AstraZeneca of deliberately dishonouring the EU"

    Op ed by Liam Halligan:
    "The EU's vaccine fiasco threatens the very future of Project Europe"

    The 'let's still be friends' strategy in action...


  • Options
    #311
    Professor Moriarty
    Registered Users Posts: 14,359 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    sondagefaux wrote: »
    The 'let's still be friends' strategy in action...

    Farage calling the EU nasty, vindictive and nationalistic is just brilliant. Anyone who swallows that kind of sh1te deserves everything they get.


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  • Options
    #312
    Harry Palmr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 40,061 ✭✭✭✭Harry Palmr


    It's the one thing the UK have got right in this farrago. We should expect this for a while.


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    #313
    yagan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,560 ✭✭✭yagan


    Harry Palmr wrote: »
    It's the one thing the UK have got right in this farrago. We should expect this for a while.

    have they? Would you accept a rushed vaccine or wait on a tested vaccine which the producer will stand over?

    AZ only supplied the UK early after they'd been indemnified from prosecution. That's politics playing with science.

    I'm happier to have the most vulnerable only wait three weeks for 95% vaccine protection rather than the 12 weeks gap in the UK that's driven not by medical priority but by political expediency.

    But as we know from Brexit, who needs experts?


  • Options
    #314
    BonnieSituation
    Registered Users Posts: 18,921 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    sondagefaux wrote: »
    Oh dear, Brexit has turned out to be a pig in a poke for British pig farmers.

    Not only are they having major problems getting their pigs to EU markets, they're also having to keep pigs on their farms longer and feed them with increasingly expensive feed.

    Now the pig farmers want a bailout and they want UK retailers to try to push sales of cuts of pig meat that aren't popular in the UK, but sre in the EU.

    Greedy pigs trying to make up for the pig's ear of Brexit...



    https://www.ft.com/content/be929057-2bbf-4cfc-9106-11665b180824

    Also worth reading:

    https://mobile.twitter.com/GroverXV/status/1054649927123517440

    Time for crubeen to take over!


  • Options
    #315
    BonnieSituation
    Registered Users Posts: 18,921 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    Strazdas wrote: »
    This was totally predictable. 'Vaccine nationalism' was always going to go down an absolute treat with the Brexiteers : they love their flag waving and jingoism.

    The 100k UK dead will barely even register with them.

    They don't even need to wave a flag when they were gonna try to put the butcher's apron on the vials themselves!

    Good to see Liam Halligan rearing his head again.


  • Options
    #316
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,695 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    demfad wrote: »
    Brexit has 2-3 directions from this point:

    1: Switzerland

    2: Singapore on the Thames.
    1: Switzerland - NB existing deal hasn't been ratified yet.
    And what would the UK bring to bring to the table considering they still have to get something better than 30 days grace on financial services.

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-factbox-idUSKBN29W1OJ
    Brussels has said it will not consider granting more equivalence access until a regulatory cooperation pact with Britain is in place and planned UK divergence from EU rules have been examined.


    2: Singapore on the Thames. - What competitive advantages ?
    The UK pays for goods by exporting services.
    Labour isn't cheaper than most competitors.
    Productivity isn't outstanding.
    Manufacturing was eviscerated by Maggie and most firms are run by accountants rather than engineers so don't expect new world beaters.

    Yes high end niche stuff like MacLaren and Rolls Royce Engines are world class but they are a tiny fraction of the economy. BAE's biggest customer is the US military so that's where their loyalty is.


  • Options
    #317
    sondagefaux
    Registered Users Posts: 1,443 ✭✭✭sondagefaux


    The EU has granted equivalency to US clearing houses. There's not going to be much joy in the City of London over this.

    https://www.cityam.com/eu-opens-up-to-us-clearing-houses-in-blow-to-city-of-london/
    Mairead McGuinness, Commissioner responsible for Financial Services, Financial Stability and the Capital Markets Union, said: “This decision is a significant first step in the process of recognising US CCPs registered with the US Securities and Exchange Commission in the European Union. We look forward to continued good cooperation between EU institutions and agencies, and the US Securities and Exchange Commission.

    https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_21_205

    Contrast that with what she's said about granting the UK equivalence and I'd be looking at apartments in Frankfurt right now if I was working in the City...


  • Options
    #318
    forgottenhills
    Registered Users Posts: 441 ✭✭forgottenhills


    yagan wrote: »
    have they? Would you accept a rushed vaccine or wait on a tested vaccine which the producer will stand over?

    AZ only supplied the UK early after they'd been indemnified from prosecution. That's politics playing with science.

    I'm happier to have the most vulnerable only wait three weeks for 95% vaccine protection rather than the 12 weeks gap in the UK that's driven not by medical priority but by political expediency.

    But as we know from Brexit, who needs experts?

    I'm not sure what you are talking about here. The EU is going to approve and starting using the very same AZ vaccine that the British have been using for a month already.

    And the AZ CEO said yesterday that it seems optimal for the second dose of their vaccine to be given after a 2 month or longer interval as the UK are doing. I'm sure that he is privy to the thinking of his company's scientists and their latest test data as testing continues and new test data emerges.

    All this flag waving over vaccination is tiresome and pointless anyway but it is nice if people can stick to the facts. And the bottom line is that it will be pointless for one country or one continent to complete its vaccination programme and declare success until every country in the world is vaccinated. Otherwise the virus mutates and travels back into the clear countries requiring further annual vaccinations or worse still, new vaccines will require development for the new variants.


  • Options
    #319
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,695 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    breezy1985 wrote: »
    Yep.
    "Sorry lads no money to fix the school cause Joanna Lumley wants an Fing bridge"
    The bridge wasn't the problem.

    Spending three times what it cost to build the Millennium Bridge nearby and not even starting on the Garden Bridge was the problem that Boris tired to hide by mentioning a bridge to Northern Ireland all the time.

    And a French company got a good chunk of the money.

    The management skills being used for Brexit didn't come out of nowhere.


  • Options
    #320
    CelticRambler
    Registered Users Posts: 6,695 ✭✭✭CelticRambler


    RobMc59 wrote: »
    I disagree with your assertion brexit happened five years ago.I believe that although the UK actually left the EU at the end of January last year,the transition period has masked the affects which is why I believe it will take a number of years from now to be able to see the effects.

    And I disagree with your interpretation! :pac: You've been participating in this discussion long enough now to know that every variation on the theme of Brexit has been analysed and speculated upon and extrapolated forward since the referendum was announced. What we're seeing now is entirely consistent with some of the worst-case scenarios - even if the more optimistic of us here didn't weren't convinced that the UK government would demonstrate quite such a level of incompetence.

    The transition period didn't so much mask the effects of Brexit but gave those who just didn't want to believe all of the worst-case predictions a false sense of security. And for five years this has been the hallmark of Brexiters and apologist Remainers: a determined refusal to believe that being outside the EU would mean being outside - maybe not quite leper status, but very definitely not equal and very definitely a "third [world|class] country" compared to the EU27 from now on.

    The new and improved version of this self-delusion is evident across a whole of swathe of the media (traditional and social), with so many people faced with Brexit disruption - Leavers and Remainers - expressing their hope (or desperation) that "things will improve" because a "solution" will be found by someone sooner or later. The Christmas Eve FTA is the solution - it's the result of the years of negotiations since Art.50 was triggered ... and it's the best GB is going to get. What Britain has now is what Britain is going to get.


    RobMc59 wrote: »
    Regarding maintaining standards,I hope they are maintained at the current levels,no sensible person wants inferior quality products or food,although I can understand that the UK government is unwilling to comply with EU rules just because the EU is trying to assert it`s will on the UK..It is sometimes astonishing the way certain posters accept control and edicts from Brussels without question,I agreed with much of what Kermit has to say and was dismayed at the treatment this stalwart of the brexit thread received for questioning brussels overbearing desire to control every aspect of life within the EU.

    And what EUrophobes frequently forget is that "Brussels" publishes directives and drafts regulations, but it is national governments that enact the legislation that governs and controls daily life. The EU grants me Freedom of Movement, meaning that I can legally pack my professional bags tonight and start work in any other EU country tomorrow ... but the French will do their damnedest to stop me moving from one département to another within my adopted country because their local rules supersede EU rules within their own territory ... :mad:

    Sure, there are some EU regulations that seem difficult to justify, when viewed from a purely [insert single nationality here] perspective; but a quick bit of research will usually show that there were good reasons why these measures are either not as strict as one might like, or seem to be excessively strict. In both cases, the EU is pretty good at updating the rule-book when circumstances change and there is a clear mechanism for EU citizens to lobby "Brussels" directly if enough of them want to see a change in the law.

    And here's the thing: these rules are written down - all of them - and there are measures in place to ensure that all countries follow what rules have been agreed. Contrast that with the Tories granting themselves the unilateral, incontestable permission to decide what food standards should apply in GB from this day forth. You can hope that they maintain standards ... but their actions so far this year indicate very strongly that they won't. In 27 days they've authorised previously banned bee-killing pesticides, deviations from approved vaccination protocols and changes to permitted working hours for road hauliers. What standards have they improved in that time? How much worse do you think things should be allowed to get before any positives of Brexit start to show up? Those being positives relative to EU membership, not positives relative to how much worse Brexit would have been under Jeremy Corbyn or some other such whataboutery!


  • Options
    #321
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,695 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    EU Parliament wants to ensure the right to disconnect from work

    What are the chances of the UK Parliament doing something similar ?

    It's not just that Brexit means that UK workers will loose out on existing rights, they won't get the new EU ones either.


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    #322
    yagan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,560 ✭✭✭yagan


    forgottenhills wrote: »
    I'm not sure what you are talking about here. The EU is going to approve and starting using the very same AZ vaccine that the British have been using for a month already.

    And the AZ CEO said yesterday that it seems optimal for the second dose of their vaccine to be given after a 2 month or longer interval as the UK are doing. I'm sure that he is privy to the thinking of his company's scientists and their latest test data as testing continues and new test data emerges.

    All this flag waving over vaccination is tiresome and pointless anyway but it is nice if people can stick to the facts. And the bottom line is that it will be pointless for one country or one continent to complete its vaccination programme and declare success until every country in the world is vaccinated. Otherwise the virus mutates and travels back into the clear countries requiring further annual vaccinations or worse still, new vaccines will require development for the new variants.
    Considering there's only a reported 50% take up in some of the worst UK hotspots I can't see that drive having much effect. If you read the comments to the story from one such hotspot I posted earlier you'll see even pro vaccination people are reluctant to take a shot from a company that's been relieved of all legal responsibility.

    AZ would say a long time between shots is fine, as they've zero litigation to worry about with the UK.


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    #323
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,695 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    sondagefaux wrote: »
    The rollout of the vaccination in the UK has been far faster than anywhere in the EU to date.
    Compare and contrast.
    EU could pay more than $10bn for Covid-19 vaccines

    UK spend on vaccines £11.7Bn This includes other costs and not just the vaccines themselves but they are throwing money at the problem.


  • Options
    #324
    Professor Moriarty
    Registered Users Posts: 14,359 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    Capt'n Midnight wrote: »
    Compare and contrast.
    EU could pay more than $10bn for Covid-19 vaccines

    UK spend on vaccines £11.7Bn This includes other costs and not just the vaccines themselves but they are throwing money at the problem.

    Further comparisons: Whatever about the UK's 'nimble' early acquisition of vaccines 'because of Brexit', the stark reality is that their Covid-19 mortality rate is the 5th highest in the world behind Belgium, Slovenia, San Marino and Gibraltar. Higher than Spain and Italy. They are closing the stable door after the horse has bolted.


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    #325
    Lemming
    Registered Users Posts: 14,148 ✭✭✭✭Lemming


    forgottenhills wrote: »

    And the AZ CEO said yesterday that it seems optimal for the second dose of their vaccine to be given after a 2 month or longer interval as the UK are doing. I'm sure that he is privy to the thinking of his company's scientists and their latest test data as testing continues and new test data emerges.

    News just in: CEO of company on 100% indemnity gravy train in not-rocking-the-boat shocker ...

    As for the politics; the problem here is AZ's explanations to the powers that be were (are still?) not up to snuff, combined with their CEO making misleading public statements about their contractual obligations, has led to a severe case of distrust. EU member states are understandably fuming given they have coughed up considerable funding.


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    #326
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Professor Moriarty wrote: »
    Further comparisons: Whatever about the UK's 'nimble' early acquisition of vaccines 'because of Brexit', the stark reality is that their Covid-19 mortality rate is the 5th highest in the world behind Belgium, Slovenia, San Marino and Gibraltar. Higher than Spain and Italy. They are closing the stable door after the horse has bolted.
    Many of the Gibraltar deaths came after being vaccinated (allegedly)!
    Most countries are "closing the stable door after the horse has bolted" due to lack of care for the vulnerable, few nipped it in the bud.


  • Options
    #327
    Professor Moriarty
    Registered Users Posts: 14,359 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Many of the Gibraltar deaths came after being vaccinated (allegedly)!
    Most countries are "closing the stable door after the horse has bolted" due to lack of care for the vulnerable, few nipped it in the bud.

    Indeed. But the UK government saw what had happened in Italy and Spain yet they prevaricated on lockdown decisions in March/April. They again prevaricated during the second wave. Never mind their tracing fiasco. It is down to incompetence and lack of leadership. Now they are trumpeting their vaccine 'win'. But they have already allowed more people to die than any other nation in Europe. This Tory government is a disgrace.


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    #328
    peter kern
    Registered Users Posts: 3,359 ✭✭✭peter kern


    Professor Moriarty wrote: »
    Indeed. But the UK government saw what had happened in Italy and Spain yet they prevaricated on lockdown decisions in March/April. They again prevaricated during the second wave. Never mind their tracing fiasco. It is down to incompetence and lack of leadership. Now they are trumpeting their vaccine 'win'. But they have already allowed more people to die than any other nation in Europe. This Tory government is a disgrace.

    dont let facts get into your way. per capita is your friend .

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/1104709/coronavirus-deaths-worldwide-per-million-inhabitants/


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    #329
    Professor Moriarty
    Registered Users Posts: 14,359 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    peter kern wrote: »
    dont let facts get into your way. per capita is your friend .

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/1104709/coronavirus-deaths-worldwide-per-million-inhabitants/

    My point is correct. In absolute terms, the UK has had the most deaths in Europe. If you read a few posts further back, I also quote the mortality rate per capita.


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    #330
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,144 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Mod: Let's take the Covid-specific stuff to the Coronavirus forum please.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #331
    Spanish Eyes
    Registered Users Posts: 15,865 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    As a dilletante in comparison to a lot of posters here, I will say that UK does not seem to have suffered much YET in relation to Brexit. But many other countries including our own seem to be affected.

    I do understand that procurement of vaccines was not EU led and any EU country could have arranged our own supplies, but as a tiny nation in the scheme of things we probably had to rely on central distribution by EU.

    So to reverse the story, how has Brexit affected the EU. It doesn't seem to have affected UK yet.....


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