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Starbucks ordered to pay customer €12,000 because of drawing on cup

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    #272
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    beakerjoe wrote: »
    Ive used the N word in a crowded room before when quoting a movie? Does this make me racist?

    If someone calls me whitey when Im in Asia I dont get offended.

    Its ignorant but not racist.

    If you were quoting somebody or a book or a song, just generally quoting, then no.

    If not, then yes. You were quoting. And if in my example, the person dropped the N bomb as a quote, they would also not be racist. If they’re not quoting, then yes, it’s a racist use. Was the Starbucks employee quoting?

    It’s great that you don’t get offended by a slur but other people would. Pick pretty much any established slur and you’ll find somebody who isn’t offended by it. That doesn’t mean it’s not a slur.


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    #273
    Bobblehats
    Registered Users Posts: 4,707 ✭✭✭Bobblehats


    tylercheribini wrote: »
    Tbh, I am not shedding a tear about the mighty Starbucks losing pennies.

    Your concerned with precedents being set on home soil. About the only irish factor in all of this


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    #274
    tylercheribini
    Registered Users Posts: 2,014 ✭✭✭tylercheribini


    Bobblehats wrote: »
    Your concerned with precedents being set on home soil. About the only irish factor in all of this

    Precedents? A certain ethnic minority have been at this here long before we had immigrants.


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    #275
    Bobblehats
    Registered Users Posts: 4,707 ✭✭✭Bobblehats


    ..


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    #276
    1874
    Registered Users Posts: 2,384 ✭✭✭1874


    beakerjoe wrote: »
    1000? Why so large?

    Id go 100, 200 max.

    I agree, Id say the award should have been what starbucks offered in compensationary vouchers really, but that might leave the WRC thinking such a reasonable award, (where they themselves state there was no racist intent) might make it appear that the WRC was actually siding with Starbucks or dismissing that the case was serious, which might picked up on as institutional disregard for reports of racism, so they went the other way and came down on starbucks like tonne of bricks.
    the award is ott, just wondering if starbucks can contest it given the WRC states it was essentially not racism, or let the person chase them in court for the money?
    If they have deep pockets as alleged, or just take it on the chin for fear of alienating a potential set of their customer base?


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    #277
    beakerjoe
    Registered Users Posts: 20,753 ✭✭✭✭beakerjoe


    Overheal wrote: »
    I'd like to know the formula also, but a lot of that is going to be eaten up by court and attorney fees. Seems the central argument was the Starbucks franchisee didn't properly train the staffer.

    And that's one them. They have to be training staff. They were at fault.


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    #278
    RobbieTheRobber
    Registered Users Posts: 6,782 ✭✭✭RobbieTheRobber


    Bobblehats wrote: »
    Your concerned with precedents being set on home soil. About the only irish factor in all of this

    What precedent has been set by this case?


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    #279
    beakerjoe
    Registered Users Posts: 20,753 ✭✭✭✭beakerjoe


    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »
    If you were quoting somebody or a book or a song, just generally quoting, then no.

    If not, then yes. You were quoting. And if in my example, the person dropped the N bomb as a quote, they would also not be racist. If they’re not quoting, then yes, it’s a racist use. Was the Starbucks employee quoting?

    It’s great that you don’t get offended by a slur but other people would. Pick pretty much any established slur and you’ll find somebody who isn’t offended by it. That doesn’t mean it’s not a slur.

    Doesn't mean its worthy of 12k though.

    It was Denzel in training day. I greet one of my pals by saying "my n-word". Im not racist. Its a term of endearment towards a friend. Weve been greeting eachother since 2002 with that quote.

    The starbucks barista drew a picture to identify someone by their eyes. Yes it can be viewed as racist, it doesnt mean it was intended to be racist.

    It shouldnt have happened, she should know better and she should be trained. Starbucks are at fault.

    My issue is it worth 12 k?

    My issue is it worth going to court if its not 12k? Like lets say its a fine rathe r than a pay out, would she care as much. I presume she'd be less motivated to complain or sue.


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    #280
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    beakerjoe wrote: »
    Doesn't mean its worthy of 12k though.

    It was Denzel in training day. I greet one of my pals by saying "my n-word". Im not racist. Its a term of endearment towards a friend. Weve been greeting eachother since 2002 with that quote.

    The starbucks barista drew a picture to identify someone by their eyes. Yes it can be viewed as racist, it doesnt mean it was intended to be racist.

    It shouldnt have happened, she should know better and she should be trained. Starbucks are at fault.

    My issue is it worth 12 k?

    My issue is it worth going to court if its not 12k? Like lets say its a fine rathe r than a pay out, would she care as much. I presume she'd be less motivated to complain or sue.

    Yes, it can be viewed as racist and it was viewed as racist. Don’t want to be viewed as racist? Then don’t do something that handily denotes racism. You can’t control or dictate how somebody will react to it.


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    #281
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »
    Right, right. Drop the N bomb in a crowded place there, Tom. And then say that you didn’t mean it in a racist way. See how you get on. You wouldn’t do it, would you?

    He did say context was important. Black people use the N word quite often but it's seen as being acceptable. Now, I see it as a double standard.. but to them, the context of a Black person using the N word isn't racist.
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »
    Yes, I’m pretty sure many people say racist things and don’t mean anything by it. Unfortunately, that’s not how it works.

    That's not how it works now. There was a time when people made allowances for ignorant or stupid expressions by others. When we weren't so quick to jump to the most extreme or negative connotation to the use of language.

    Don't you see where this will lead? To the point where just about anything can be construed as being racist, sexist, or whatever, because someone somewhere can be offended by what you say.
    The person on the receiving end took it as racist. And can you tell her she was wrong?

    Sure I can. I'm allowed to have that opinion. For me, I consider racism to carry an intent. Drawing slanted eyes on a cup doesn't suggest much in the way of intent towards being racist.
    The whole thing of casual racism is that it usually isn’t said with invective. It’s thoughtless. And it’s actually something that requires more vigilance around it than overt, threatening racism. “I wasn’t thinking” just isn’t good enough, I’m afraid. Sure, we could all use that excuse to execrete shite from our mouths. And actually, it was a level above throwaway.

    Casual racism.. constant vigilance against racism. haha. oh lord. Sorry. no. no no. Racism is always going to be around in one form or another, and it's very common throughout the world. We can encourage people to not express racist sentiments, or to behave overtly racist.. but you're talking about far more than that.

    The world you describe is one where you need to watch every single thing that comes out of your mouth or you might be sued, or punished somehow. That's not a world I want to live in... Two steps away from fascism or communism, in my eyes. Next thing will be "thought policing" for subconscious signs of racism, social conditioning, and re-education camps for those who don't comply.
    AND I’m not sure how you can speak with such surety of the employee’s motivation. Unless you are the employee, you don’t know what the thought process was.

    Probably the same way that you can speak for the person who was offended :rolleyes:


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    #282
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    Deleted User wrote: »
    He did say context was important. Black people use the N word quite often but it's seen as being acceptable. Now, I see it as a double standard.. but to them, the context of a Black person using the N word isn't racist.



    That's not how it works now. There was a time when people made allowances for ignorant or stupid expressions by others. When we weren't so quick to jump to the most extreme or negative connotation to the use of language.

    Don't you see where this will lead? To the point where just about anything can be construed as being racist, sexist, or whatever, because someone somewhere can be offended by what you say.



    Sure I can. I'm allowed to have that opinion. For me, I consider racism to carry an intent. Drawing slanted eyes on a cup doesn't suggest much in the way of intent towards being racist.



    Casual racism.. constant vigilance against racism. haha. oh lord. Sorry. no. no no. Racism is always going to be around in one form or another, and it's very common throughout the world. We can encourage people to not express racist sentiments, or to behave overtly racist.. but you're talking about far more than that.

    The world you describe is one where you need to watch every single thing that comes out of your mouth or you might be sued, or punished somehow. That's not a world I want to live in... Two steps away from fascism or communism, in my eyes. Next thing will be "thought policing" for subconscious signs of racism, social conditioning, and re-education camps for those who don't comply.



    Probably the same way that you can speak for the person who was offended :rolleyes:

    Everyone is allowed to have an opinion, Klaz. That is such a nothing point.

    And I’m basing my surety on the outcome of the case. :) What was the outcome of the case?


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    #283
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 54,990 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    sameoldname wrote: »
    An employee of Starbucks, working in Starbucks at the time, representing Starbucks, serving a customer of Starbucks. That's the way it works and it works both ways.

    That is not the way it works here...

    The employee had 0 intention of being racist if you believe the case and its details

    The persons that brought this claim also know this deep down...

    It was a crock of silly childish innocence that was twisted in order to gain money....


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    #284
    Bobblehats
    Registered Users Posts: 4,707 ✭✭✭Bobblehats


    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »
    Everyone is allowed to have an opinion, Klaz. That is such a nothing point.

    And I’m basing my surety on the outcome of the case. :) What was the outcome of the case?

    Such a fake smile.... no sarcasm detected in the slightest, you smile with your eyes the outcome of the case?! 12k; to go with that hot cup of coffee should we need reminding. Now that is service with a smile


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    #285
    1874
    Registered Users Posts: 2,384 ✭✭✭1874


    RobbieTheRobber wrote: »
    How did they "pull a fast one". Is there some part of the story I am missing where the complainant or her boyfriend induced the barista into the drawing of the racist imagery?

    If not how can you can you claim the complainant "pulled a fast one"?


    For a person who goes on about outrage, you seem to be fairly outraged yourself. Rather than adding anything useful, you just post comments like outraged.


    They pulled a fast one because they have capitalised on being offended by their claim that it was racist, it was a stupid thing to do by the Barista, but it wasn't racist imo, the WRC looks to have agreed with this.


    In the WRC report, it looks like the complainant contradicts themself.
    Its stated that she didnt want this to happen to anyone else, yet she questions, why if it was Starbucks assertion that it was not racist, then why did Starbucks institute a training program to deal with it?
    Clearly a situation has come up and they need to respond to it internally to deal with it, so it doesn't happen again, ie so they dont get done for another 12k. So on the one hand the complainant doesnt want this to recur for anyone else but when Starbucks carries out training, she still isn't happy, I consider that to be clutching at straws in her own defence.


    imo I think it is reasonable that the names are released, people should have to stand over their decisions. She better be happy with it and make that 12k last because she has sullied her name for ever more, can you imagine an employer seeing her name on a job application?



    The only thing I see as an error here, is it looks like the employee was told or asked to apologise and they didnt go out to do so.
    The manager at the time should have had the sense to follow up on the spot,



    1. The employee should have been told to go out and apologise in the presence of the manager, but reference should have been made about the boyfriends follow up racist comment, if that racist comment occurred as one side claimed, then was the time to bring it up and it might have dissuaded the pair from going further, the complainant would know it had been said (she stated she didnt hear such a comment).


    2. Had the employee refused to apologise willingly, she shouldnt have been coerced, the manager should have gone out and said so and apologised on her behalf, and even stated that she will be dealt with by HR and likely dismissed from her job.
    If that didn't put off the complainant, then she is unreasonable.

    Offer vouchers as has been done and then have the employee interviewed about the situation, and her explanation for not apologising, and possibly sacked.


    imo, this could have protected Starbucks from a 12k payout, as they could have cited a policy of not tolerating said behaviour.

    The granny and her father weighing in, makes it look like they got dollar signs in their head.
    Money for old rope all the same



    Starbucks policy to even write names and not just call out the order is enough to put me off going there, but I wouldn't usually visit coffee shops, nice treat, but overall a rip off.


    I did witness one event that was worse where I nearly intervened myself and I suspect it was an intentional scam in the making, in this case just go around ready to be offended and then Starbucks just kinda served it to them on a plate.


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    #286
    RobbieTheRobber
    Registered Users Posts: 6,782 ✭✭✭RobbieTheRobber


    1874 wrote: »
    For a person who goes on about outrage, you seem to be fairly outraged yourself. Rather than adding anything useful, you just post comments like outraged.


    They pulled a fast one because they have capitalised on being offended by their claim that it was racist, it was a stupid thing to do by the Barista, but it wasn't racist imo, the WRC looks to have agreed with this.


    In the WRC report, it looks like the complainant contradicts themself.
    Its stated that she didnt want this to happen to anyone else, yet she questions, why if it was Starbucks assertion that it was not racist, then why did Starbucks institute a training program to deal with it?
    Clearly a situation has come up and they need to respond to it internally to deal with it, so it doesn't happen again, ie so they dont get done for another 12k. So on the one hand the complainant doesnt want this to recur for anyone else but when Starbucks carries out training, she still isn't happy, I consider that to be clutching at straws in her own defence.


    imo I think it is reasonable that the names are released, people should have to stand over their decisions. She better be happy with it and make that 12k last because she has sullied her name for ever more, can you imagine an employer seeing her name on a job application?



    The only thing I see as an error here, is it looks like the employee was told or asked to apologise and they didnt go out to do so.
    The manager at the time should have had the sense to follow up on the spot,



    1. The employee should have been told to go out and apologise in the presence of the manager, but reference should have been made about the boyfriends follow up racist comment, if that racist comment occurred as one side claimed, then was the time to bring it up and it might have dissuaded the pair from going further, the complainant would know it had been said (she stated she didnt hear such a comment).


    2. Had the employee refused to apologise willingly, she shouldnt have been coerced, the manager should have gone out and said so and apologised on her behalf, and even stated that she will be dealt with by HR and likely dismissed from her job.
    If that didn't put off the complainant, then she is unreasonable.

    Offer vouchers as has been done and then have the employee interviewed about the situation, and her explanation for not apologising, and possibly sacked.


    imo, this could have protected Starbucks from a 12k payout, as they could have cited a policy of not tolerating said behaviour.

    The granny and her father weighing in, makes it look like they got dollar signs in their head.
    Money for old rope all the same



    Starbucks policy to even write names and not just call out the order is enough to put me off going there, but I wouldn't usually visit coffee shops, nice treat, but overall a rip off.


    I did witness one event that was worse where I nearly intervened myself and I suspect it was an intentional scam in the making, in this case just go around ready to be offended and then Starbucks just kinda served it to them on a plate.

    Yeah eh thanks for the long and winding post that doesn't really address how they pulled a fast one.
    Just to make sure I'm not picking you up wrong your not outraged right?

    And the imaginary racist image drawing white Brazilian male, his feelings are ok too are they?


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    #287
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    Bobblehats wrote: »
    Such a fake smile.... no sarcasm detected in the slightest, you smile with your eyes the outcome of the case?! 12k; to go with that hot cup of coffee should we need reminding. Now that is service with a smile

    There are set award amounts. €12,000 is probably in the lower bracket if not even the lowest.


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    #288
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »
    Everyone is allowed to have an opinion, Klaz. That is such a nothing point.

    Ahh nice. A dismissal of what was said. Lovely.
    And I’m basing my surety on the outcome of the case. :) What was the outcome of the case?

    Another step towards a world of overly sensitive people who end up screwing each other over, in the rush to be the victim rather than the aggressor.


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    #289
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,121 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Whatever about the offense, imagine the poor server who had to call out "slanty eyes" presumably to a coffee shop with one Asian customer.

    Awkward.


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    #290
    Quantum Erasure
    Registered Users Posts: 8,299 ✭✭✭Quantum Erasure


    Overheal wrote: »
    The context is, it's starbucks, where they simply ask you your name and write it horribly on the cup. For some reason this barista decided a name wasn't a useful thing to use and instead used a racial stereotype in emoji form. I guess asking her name was of no use?
    ..
    Suchavadee Foley

    Suchavadee ...


    tenor.gif


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    #291
    Quantum Erasure
    Registered Users Posts: 8,299 ✭✭✭Quantum Erasure


    GreeBo wrote: »
    Whatever about the offense, imagine the poor server who had to call out "slanty eyes" presumably to a coffee shop with one Asian customer.

    Awkward.

    I heard it was a white male Brazillian


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    #292
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    GreeBo wrote: »
    Whatever about the offense, imagine the poor server who had to call out "slanty eyes" presumably to a coffee shop with one Asian customer.

    Awkward.

    The drawing was of slanted eyes.. not written "slanty eyes". I suspect they would have singled out the one Asian person in the cafe, and called to them to collect their coffee. I get the same kind of treatment in China where I'm often the only foreigner they'll see for ages.


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    #293
    Gaoth Laidir
    Registered Users Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Gaoth Laidir


    GreeBo wrote: »
    Whatever about the offense, imagine the poor server who had to call out "slanty eyes" presumably to a coffee shop with one Asian customer.

    Awkward.

    Again, reading the transcript it was explained that the barista called out the particular type of tea that she had ordered, so no public embarrassment occurred.

    Can people please read the official report here before making assumptions?

    https://www.workplacerelations.ie/en/cases/2021/january/adj-00028487.html


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    #294
    1874
    Registered Users Posts: 2,384 ✭✭✭1874


    RobbieTheRobber wrote: »
    Yeah eh thanks for the long and winding post that doesn't really address how they pulled a fast one.
    Just to make sure I'm not picking you up wrong your not outraged right?

    And the imaginary racist image drawing white Brazilian male, his feelings are ok too are they?




    Look, Im not feeding you anymore after this,
    But imo they were seizing on the racist angle, the granny emailing in follow up too.

    they seized on the opportunity to make a few quid out of this. Its a win win scenario, no matter what the outcome they cant lose (money), well not in the short term, otherwise why try disclose their details, their names will be associated with this for a long time.



    The fact she had an instagram account and alleges she "shares" this account with her cousin, highly questionable, I don't believe teen or adult shares an instagram account and this was the explanation for anime on the account.

    thats all pulling a fast one,



    In no way does this correspond to a 12k payout, even the WRC said it recognises "the employee did not intend to harass the complainant"

    edit, the crux of this, is that the drawing, stupid as it was to even do, in no way suggested the person was inferior in anyway or any criticism of her.
    The complainant (well her and the boyfriend, and the granny, and people on here) made a big deal over this.
    Not racism, end of, stupid yes.


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    #295
    Ginger83
    Registered Users Posts: 3,469 ✭✭✭Ginger83


    Good old snowflake compo culture Ireland, ffs if I got compo every time someone called me something I'd be loaded.


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    #296
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Ginger83 wrote: »
    Good old snowflake compo culture Ireland, ffs if I got compo every time someone called me something I'd be loaded.

    Username checks out


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    #297
    Ginger83
    Registered Users Posts: 3,469 ✭✭✭Ginger83


    MikeOxsgreen wrote: »
    Username checks out

    What a racist comment ;)


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    #298
    John Doe1
    Registered Users Posts: 2,921 ✭✭✭John Doe1


    I mean i guess its kind of demeaning but its not exactly as racist as shooting a poor defenceless black man who was trying to show off the prize knife from his collection to the West Dublin community a while back.
    Also, as someone who lived in China, Asian racism is on another level mostly against Uighirs and Blacks in that case.


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    #299
    RobbieTheRobber
    Registered Users Posts: 6,782 ✭✭✭RobbieTheRobber


    John Doe1 wrote: »
    I mean i guess its kind of demeaning but its not exactly as racist as shooting a poor defenceless black man who was trying to show off the prize knife from his collection to the West Dublin community a while back.
    Also, as someone who lived in China, Asian racism is on another level mostly against Uighirs and Blacks in that case.

    What the fúck has the incident in balbriggan got to do with a WRC ruling in relation to the equal status act. Did the complaintant bring a knife to the WRC?

    Yes indeed some Asians can be racist, does that preclude the woman in this case from her rights under the equal status act?

    What a stupid post.


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    #300
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    John Doe1 wrote: »
    I mean i guess its kind of demeaning but its not exactly as racist as shooting a poor defenceless black man who was trying to show off the prize knife from his collection to the West Dublin community a while back.
    Also, as someone who lived in China, Asian racism is on another level mostly against Uighirs and Blacks in that case.

    Re the spoiler. Or in many country areas towards anyone who is not Chinese. Hell, even in the suburbs where you find the migrant workers, you'll (as a white person) be on the receiving end of all manner of racism from casual remarks (fine, if you don't speak Mandarin or dialect) to direct hostility. If you're not Han Chinese, any of the other ethnic groups will also be targeted, but then, they'll (the other ethnic groups) also often treat foreigners badly.

    It's the same throughout Asia, and Africa, tbh. You just get on with things and hopefully remember that not everyone behaves or thinks this way.


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    #301
    John Doe1
    Registered Users Posts: 2,921 ✭✭✭John Doe1


    RobbieTheRobber wrote: »
    What the fúck has the incident in balbriggan got to do with a WRC ruling in relation to the equal status act. Did the complaintant bring a knife to the WRC?

    Yes indeed some Asians can be racist, does that preclude the woman in this case from her rights under the equal status act?

    What a stupid post.

    Calm your wee head there Luv.

    I dont for a minute believe that the Starbucks employees intentially meant to cause offense and was just a bit naive. I have found this naivete to be common enough with people from South America/Spain/Italy in the past.

    When I was working in China, a black guy was basically fired from his English teaching job because the parents were uncomfortable with his skin colour, that is ACTUAL racism.

    Yes, it was demeaning to the woman but hardly life-altering, 12,000 is a bit rich.

    Point being, there are gradations of racism and there seems to a trend lately of seeing racism everywhere thereby diminishing the seriousness of actual racist incidents.


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