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Trump v Biden 2020,The insurrection (pt 6) Read OP

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    #8102
    Quin_Dub
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 15,236 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    Muahahaha wrote: »
    Id be shocked if there is no pardons for Kushner and Trumps two sons, he often sends them to do dirty work. iirc Eric was deposed in New York back in October as part of a fraud investigation so there might be charges forthcoming.

    Otherwise I was wondering will we be seeing the return of this next Wednesday?

    55b659f3371d22ce178b9c91?width=700

    Wiki says it was used for private hire but has been in storage since 2019 unused and that one of the Rolls Royce engines was removed but theres no recent updates if it is back on the plane. He was also trying to sell one of his helicopters last October.

    He's stuck..

    If he can't have a pardon - which he's been told would at the very least open him up to a slew of Civil cases whatever about the legality of the self-pardon , then he can't pardon the others as they'd be forced to give evidence against him in court.


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    #8103
    Agent Coulson
    Registered Users Posts: 60,451 ✭✭✭✭Agent Coulson


    They voted to impeach Trump now they are scared his cult followers may try to kill them.

    https://twitter.com/therecount/status/1349747027438153734?s=20


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    #8104
    MeMen2_MoRi_
    Registered Users Posts: 1,982 ✭✭✭MeMen2_MoRi_


    https://twitter.com/RepKClark/status/1349729876064915457?s=19

    Seems there's still dirt left behind from the storming of the Capitol


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    #8105
    partyguinness
    Registered Users Posts: 8,207 ✭✭✭partyguinness


    Any attempts to prosecute Trump at federal level is an unwelcome distraction for Biden. He will just want to move forward and just consign Trump to the past. At the end of the day, Trump was not some evil military dictator. He was elected in 2016 and received 70m+ votes this time.

    Biden (or anyone really) really does not want several years of Trump show trials dominating the narrative.

    Let the States chip away at him and the banks call in the loans- death by a thousand cuts.


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    #8106
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,307 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    partyguinness wrote: »
    Any attempts to prosecute Trump at federal level is an unwelcome distraction for Biden. He will just want to move forward and just consign Trump to the past.

    Biden (or anyone really) really does not want several years of Trump show trials dominating the narrative.

    Let the States chip away at him and the banks call in the loans- death by a thousand cuts.

    actions should have consequences. letting Trump off helps nobody.


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    #8107
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 82,079 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    partyguinness wrote: »
    Any attempts to prosecute Trump at federal level is an unwelcome distraction for Biden. He will just want to move forward and just consign Trump to the past. At the end of the day, Trump was not some evil military dictator. He was elected in 2016 and received 70m+ votes this time.

    Biden (or anyone really) really does not want several years of Trump show trials dominating the narrative.

    Let the States chip away at him and the banks call in the loans- death by a thousand cuts.

    I think you overestimate how much Biden is going to give a **** about the news headlines and chyrons when he is in the office.

    He doesn't watch Fox and Friends and he doesn't read Breitbart. He reads his intelligence briefings and the laws he's expected to sign. From James Clapper: "From my experience with then-Vice President Biden, he was an avid reader and in general a voracious consumer of intelligence. I'm sure he will be especially so as President."

    He's not interested in any involvement whatsoever with the DOJ and its all but guaranteed prosecution of Trump. He will be hands off. As the POTUS is supposed to be. The AG is meant to act autonomously and independently from the White House, despite Trump generating illusions to the contrary.


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    #8108
    partyguinness
    Registered Users Posts: 8,207 ✭✭✭partyguinness


    Overheal wrote: »
    I think you overestimate how much Biden is going to give a **** about the news headlines and chyrons when he is in the office.

    He doesn't watch Fox and Friends and he doesn't read Breitbart. He reads his intelligence briefings and the laws he's expected to sign. From James Clapper: "From my experience with then-Vice President Biden, he was an avid reader and in general a voracious consumer of intelligence. I'm sure he will be especially so as President."

    I am not doubting Biden's ability in the slightest and I am not even thinking about Fox et al or the right wing media. Trump still received 70m+ votes and they are not all right wing loonies.

    It was like with Ford and Nixon: "Pardon. Draw a line under it and move on." People didn't like it but in the grand scheme of things agreed that was probably for the best.

    I would not be remotely surprised if the Feds take the same view- is it really in the public interest? The notion that Biden might pardon him does not bear thinking about so any federal prosecutions will be quietly shelved.

    Ultimately any prosecutions are not Biden's call.


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    #8109
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    partyguinness wrote: »
    I am not doubting Biden's ability in the slightest and I am not even thinking about Fox et al or the right wing media. Trump still received 70m+ votes and they are not all right wing loonies.

    It was like with Ford and Nixon: "Pardon. Draw a line under it and move on." People didn't like it but in the grand scheme of things agreed that was probably for the best.

    I would not be remotely surprised if the Feds take the same view- is it really in the public interest? The notion that Biden might pardon him does not bear thinking about so any federal prosecutions will be quietly shelved.

    Ultimately any prosecutions are not Biden's call.

    Assuming of course that Biden completely rolls-back the Trumpisms of the last 4 years. One of the major problems with a Trump-type President, is that once they get away with completely ignoring and destroying the status-quo or traditional understanding of the office of the Presidency, it's hard to put that back in the bottle.

    That's always been my issue with the likes of Barr and his views on the almost unlimited powers of the Executive; once you start down that road it's hard to ask the next guy to give it back - but I think if anyone is going to it's Biden.


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    #8110
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,307 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    partyguinness wrote: »
    I am not doubting Biden's ability in the slightest and I am not even thinking about Fox et al or the right wing media. Trump still received 70m+ votes and they are not all right wing loonies.

    It was like with Ford and Nixon: "Pardon. Draw a line under it and move on." People didn't like it but in the grand scheme of things agreed that was probably for the best.

    I would not be remotely surprised if the Feds take the same view- is it really in the public interest? The notion that Biden might pardon him does not bear thinking about so any federal prosecutions will be quietly shelved.

    Ultimately any prosecutions are not Biden's call.

    Is it in the public interest for the federal government to prosecute somebody who fomented insurrection? Yes, yes it is. and the comparison with Nixon is ridiculous.


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    #8111
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 82,079 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    partyguinness wrote: »
    I am not doubting Biden's ability in the slightest and I am not even thinking about Fox et al or the right wing media. Trump still received 70m+ votes and they are not all right wing loonies.

    It was like with Ford and Nixon: "Pardon. Draw a line under it and move on." People didn't like it but in the grand scheme of things agreed that was probably for the best.

    I would not be remotely surprised if the Feds take the same view- is it really in the public interest? The notion that Biden might pardon him does not bear thinking about so any federal prosecutions will be quietly shelved.

    Ultimately any prosecutions are not Biden's call.

    Nope, they aren't. It will be Merrick Garland's.

    I don't think the plurality of 74 million voters of his still believe that the election was rigged, and fewer still are going to ascribe themselves to the man after the attack on the Capitol.

    The FBI doesn't decide to prosecute or not prosecute an apparent crime based on whether the public will be upset about it. The agency itself is to function apolitically.

    As Slippers said though, the GWB and Trump admins established a multitude of unitary-executive stances for the POTUS to take. All stances which can be enjoyed by any future President.


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    #8112
    briany
    Registered Users Posts: 13,594 ✭✭✭✭briany


    partyguinness wrote: »
    I am not doubting Biden's ability in the slightest and I am not even thinking about Fox et al or the right wing media. Trump still received 70m+ votes and they are not all right wing loonies.

    It was like with Ford and Nixon: "Pardon. Draw a line under it and move on." People didn't like it but in the grand scheme of things agreed that was probably for the best.

    I would not be remotely surprised if the Feds take the same view- is it really in the public interest? The notion that Biden might pardon him does not bear thinking about so any federal prosecutions will be quietly shelved.

    Ultimately any prosecutions are not Biden's call.

    If we want to pursue this line of reasoning to its conclusion then you can never prosecute an outgoing president like Trump, with the following he has, no matter what he did because it's just too politically volatile.

    Do we want the lesson to be that if you can cultivate a cult of personality then you are de facto untouchable? Because if that's the lesson, I'm sure there are those taking notes.

    If he hadn't instigated the putsch of Jan 6th, I'd be inclined to agree that it isn't worth prosecuting him if agrees to go and live quietly, but I think he really crossed a line, and we know he crossed a line because all but the most ardent wingnuts cannot defend what he and his followers did. I think if you don't draw that line then others will come along who'll just keep pushing and pushing and pushing.


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    #8113
    storker
    Registered Users Posts: 5,653 ✭✭✭storker


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    actions should have consequences. letting Trump off helps nobody.

    It's funny how the Republicans are so keen on the idea of actions having consequences, and the punishment fitting the crime, until...


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    #8114
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,307 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    storker wrote: »
    It's funny how the Republicans are so keen on the idea of actions having consequences, and the punishment fitting the crime, until...

    it is almost like the are hypo... no, no, that couldn't be.


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    #8115
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 82,079 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    briany wrote: »
    If we want to pursue this line of reasoning to its conclusion then you can never prosecute an outgoing president like Trump, with the following he has, no matter what he did because it's just too politically volatile.

    Do we want the lesson to be that if you can cultivate a cult of personality then you are de facto untouchable? Because if that's the lesson, I'm sure there are those taking notes.

    If he hadn't instigated the putsch of Jan 6th, I'd be inclined to agree that it isn't worth prosecuting him if agrees to go and live quietly, but I think he really crossed a line, and we know he crossed a line because all but the most ardent wingnuts cannot defend what he and his followers did. I think if you don't draw that line then others will come along who'll just keep pushing and pushing and pushing.

    I'll keep saying it: after Hitler's failed coup, they sentenced him to 5 years in their upscale caste of prison (Festungshaft - you'll need to translate the page: "fortress detention was considered an honorable punishment. It could be imposed on officers and members of the higher, educated classes."). He served 9 months, wrote the most infamous manifesto in history while doing so, and the German people thought he would just **** off to the Austrian countryside to live out the rest of his days quietly. The rest is blood-soaked history.

    hitler-tamed-by-prison.png1.jpg?w=970
    Are we really this dumb that we would repeat the same mistakes?


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    #8116
    joe40
    Registered Users Posts: 3,811 ✭✭✭joe40


    There was a discussion earlier about a possible book by Trump when this is all over. I was just thinking what section would bookshops stock the book. Would it be under biographies or politics or perhaps the fiction section would be most appropriate. Maybe some might keep it in the fantasy section..


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    #8117
    jimmycrackcorm
    Registered Users Posts: 14,331 ✭✭✭✭jimmycrackcorm


    A senate trial for the impeachment will be very interesting. Lots of witnesses to show how Trump fermented and instigated the insurrection, but what is going to be produced in his defence?

    I think it would be in McConnell's interest to see Trump convicted of it as it will be a lesson for Republicans that they stand to lose everything in the future if they encourage a candidate that encourages the far-right spectrum of their supporters.


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    #8118
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 82,079 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    joe40 wrote: »
    There was a discussion earlier about a possible book by Trump when this is all over. I was just thinking what section would bookshops stock the book. Would it be under biographies or politics or perhaps the fiction section would be most appropriate. Maybe some might keep it in the fantasy section..

    Keep it next to Mein Kampf.


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    #8119
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 82,079 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    jimmycrackcorm wrote: »
    A senate trial for the impeachment will be very interesting. Lots of witnesses to show how Trump fermented and instigated the insurrection, but what is going to be produced in his defence?

    That's right, there will actually be a trial this time. The GOP doesn't have the votes to block witnesses again.


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    #8120
    yagan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,800 ✭✭✭yagan


    It's like the whole moving statues thing again. No one could say "you're all imagining it" without being labelled anti church/catholic/faith etc.. yet you'd be hard pressed to find anyone except religious certifables who'd admit they saw anything. Everyone else moved on.

    It will be the same with Trump. MAGA hats will disappear into attics and closets just the same as the German guns the UVF imported in 1914.


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    #8121
    briany
    Registered Users Posts: 13,594 ✭✭✭✭briany


    This is pretty damning, if true. Per Wikipedia.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_storming_of_the_United_States_Capitol#Capitol_breach

    TRUMP'S CONDUCT DURING THE RIOT
    Trump, who had spent previous weeks promoting the "Save America" rally,[234] was "initially pleased" when his supporters breached the Capitol and refused to intercede,[235] but also "expressed disgust on aesthetic grounds" over the "low class" appearance of the supporters involved in the rioting.[236] Senator Ben Sasse (R-NE) said that senior White House officials told him that Trump was "delighted" to hear that rioters were entering the Capitol.[237] Staffers reported that Trump had been "impossible to talk to throughout the day," and that his inability to deal with his election loss and displeasure that his supporters were unsuccessful in overturning the result by force had, according to one staffer, made Trump "out of his mind."[238] Concerned that Trump may have committed treason through his actions, White House Counsel Pat Cipollone reportedly advised administration officials to avoid contact with Trump and ignore any illegal orders that could further incite the storming to limit their prosecutorial liability under the Sedition Act of 1918.[239]


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    #8122
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,307 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    briany wrote: »
    This is pretty damning, if true. Per Wikipedia.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_storming_of_the_United_States_Capitol#Capitol_breach

    TRUMP'S CONDUCT DURING THE RIOT

    that was mentioned earlier in the thread. His opinion of the MAGA supporters is no secret.


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    #8123
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users Posts: 11,759 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    briany wrote: »
    This is pretty damning, if true. Per Wikipedia.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_storming_of_the_United_States_Capitol#Capitol_breach

    TRUMP'S CONDUCT DURING THE RIOT

    Wikipedia. Great source dude.


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    #8124
    briany
    Registered Users Posts: 13,594 ✭✭✭✭briany


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    Wikipedia. Great source dude.

    You're free to click on the citations in the article that take you to the source material. There's plenty there.


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    #8125
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    Wikipedia. Great source dude.

    Wikipedia isn't the source. The cited sources are the source.

    Let me know if you need more help with this.


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    #8126
    J. Marston
    Registered Users Posts: 23,134 ✭✭✭✭J. Marston


    Biden is gonna get impeached on his first day. Harsh.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/biden-trump-impeachment-marjorie-taylor-greene-b1787055.html


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    #8127
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    J. Marston wrote: »
    Biden is gonna get impeached on his first day. Harsh.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/biden-trump-impeachment-marjorie-taylor-greene-b1787055.html

    The impeachment part comes after the House votes in favour of it. The Democrats are the majority in the House and Biden is a member of the Democrats.

    So, no, Biden won't be impeached.


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    #8128
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,307 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    J. Marston wrote: »
    Biden is gonna get impeached on his first day. Harsh.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/biden-trump-impeachment-marjorie-taylor-greene-b1787055.html

    LOL. she can file all the impeachment charges she wants. wont make a damn bit of difference.


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    #8129
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 82,079 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    J. Marston wrote: »
    Biden is gonna get impeached on his first day. Harsh.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/biden-trump-impeachment-marjorie-taylor-greene-b1787055.html

    You can hear the collective groan from Republicans who have crutched their whole anti-impeachment offence on 'democrats trying to impeach the president from day one'


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    #8130
    Quin_Dub
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 15,236 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    Deleted User wrote: »
    The impeachment part comes after the House votes in favour of it. The Democrats are the majority in the House and Biden is a member of the Democrats.

    So, no, Biden won't be impeached.

    There won't even be a vote - It has to get out of Nadlers committee first.

    He won't even take up the request to review it.


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    #8131
    Doctor Jimbob
    Registered Users Posts: 7,634 ✭✭✭Doctor Jimbob


    J. Marston wrote: »
    Biden is gonna get impeached on his first day. Harsh.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/biden-trump-impeachment-marjorie-taylor-greene-b1787055.html

    Abuse of power is an interesting thing to base it on considering he isn't in power yet.


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