Dart Fine *& Appeal

redman · 14-01-2021 11:13am #1

Hi

Looking for some views based on your experiences please.

In November my daughter who has a 16-18 leapcard switched from regularly using bus to dart due to congestion and reduction of seating on buses.

She had only just started using the Dart again and one morning an inspector checked her card and he said it didn't register the trip

She explained the machine was faulty, that her card had plenty of credit on it and she would have no reason to skip fare. The inspector she said was gruff , showed no interest and wrote the fine anyway and told her to contact the appeal which I did that morning.

I just got notice we lost the appeal
"I have reviewed this case and as you had a LEAP card which was not touched on prior to boarding when the facilities were available, the officer was correct in issuing the fixed payment notice issued to you under the Railway Safety Act 2005 section 132 (2) (a) "failure to deliver up a valid ticket". This section is one of strict liability."

I shared with him her leapcard history and also the fact it is on DD auto topup from my account, thus she absolutely no reason not to tap on !

It seems incredibly unfair and they state facilities were available contrary to my daughers view.
I could now got to FOI to understand what proof they have that the machines were working and further legal time and hassle.

Any advice?

Redman

godtabh · 14-01-2021 11:15am

She was fined for not having a valid ticket. Are you disputing that?

Seaswimmer · 14-01-2021 11:39am

"I shared with him her leapcard history and also the fact it is on DD auto topup from my account, thus she absolutely no reason not to tap on !"

Well in theory she could save you 2 or 3 euro everytime. I doubt if she was trying to save you money however so I take your point

I have seen it regularly in Dart stations where the gates may be open and people just walk through without tagging on. I am guesing if the machine was faulty as you say then it wouldnt have let her through
If she tagged on and the gates opened but didnt register on her card then you may have a case but no idea how you would prove it.

You are a bit unclear abut the machines being faulty. What was the actual fault? Were there multiple machines? Were they all faulty? If not why didnt she use a different machine? Were other people affected?

Cyrus · 14-01-2021 11:41am

Seaswimmer wrote: »

I have seen it regularly in Dart stations where the gates may be open and people just walk through without tagging on.

i often do that, but i have an annual card so i have no reason to tag on or off.

Citrus_8 · 14-01-2021 12:57pm

Nothing to dispute here. I appreciate the fact a validator didn't work (if that's true). Unfortunately, onus is on customer to pay for services. There's more than one validor. A Leap holder should make sure card validated properly. I've been also fined for same reason and no luck or empathy from someone - purely pay your trip or get fined. But, you may complain to whoever do maintenance of these validators - Irish Rail probably, also can complain to the NTA to make them more proactive as it's a real shame some validators are indeed not getting repaired quick enough.

2012paddy2012 · 14-01-2021 1:00pm

Citrus_8 wrote: »

Nothing to dispute here. I appreciate the fact a validator didn't work (if that's true). Unfortunately, onus is on customer to pay for services. There's more than one validor. A Leap holder should make sure card validated properly. I been also fined for same reason and no luck in any empathy - purely pay your trip or get fined. But, you may complain to whoever do maintenance of these validators - Irish Rail probably, also can complain to the NTA to make them more proactive as it's a real shame some validators are indeed not getting repaired quick enough.

I had similar issue. Gave up eventually. I tried every avenue. Better to pay than the hassle of court. My young had a difficultly too , no point - court or pay

redman · 14-01-2021 1:19pm

Thanks to you all for the empathy and yes it feels a shame but just need to pay.

It was Glenageary Dart station that had they main entrance closed due to timing, thus gate was open and you had to tap on to the validator going down the stairs. They may be another validator on the other side of the stairs but I havent gone to look. Just seems very harsh given the situation but once bitten!
Id buy my teenagers monthly/annual cards but no Dart/Bus options to do so for under 18s that i can find:-(

Spook_ie · 14-01-2021 1:19pm

Cyrus wrote: »

i often do that, but i have an annual card so i have no reason to tag on or off.

You sure about the T&Cs that allow you to travel without validating your pass?

https://www.taxsaver.ie/FAQs/

What happens if my Annual ticket won't work in the machines?
Annual and monthly rail Leapcards can be replaced by logging into your account on to www.leapcard.ie and selecting the 'Replace' option. Click here for more details.

Isambard · 14-01-2021 2:36pm

i may be being dumb but how do you tell the tap has been recorded? I ask as I'm almost toally deaf and if it's a beep, I wouldn't hear it at all. Can't hear my own car dashboard beep at me! Is there a visual display as well?

magicbastarder · 14-01-2021 2:45pm

yes, there's a digital readout which (where applicable) gives fare deducted or credited, and whether it was a tag on or off, etc.
(edit: i'm talking about luas ones, i just copped that we're talking about the dart, of which i am unsure)

Cyrus · 14-01-2021 3:00pm

Spook_ie wrote: »

You sure about the T&Cs that allow you to travel without validating your pass?

https://www.taxsaver.ie/FAQs/

not sure about the T&Cs but the reality is i have probably validated my pass 5 times in the last year commuting and had it checked several times by an inspector and there was never an issue, so in practice there is no issue.

i have paid for my trip, why would there be.

Losty Dublin · 14-01-2021 3:17pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

yes, there's a digital readout which (where applicable) gives fare deducted or credited, and whether it was a tag on or off, etc.
(edit: i'm talking about luas ones, i just copped that we're talking about the dart, of which i am unsure)

Same principle at play. It tells you what sort of a ticket pass that you have used or your available cash/credit to hand, then it shows any other validation details that may be relevant. In the case of a train station you also have the readers on the entry/exit barriers where you can validate your card. Plenty of options to tag on, all told.

Hilly Bill · 14-01-2021 3:47pm

Cyrus wrote: »

not sure about the T&Cs but the reality is i have probably validated my pass 5 times in the last year commuting and had it checked several times by an inspector and there was never an issue, so in practice there is no issue.

i have paid for my trip, why would there be.

It's just to make sure that card holders are travelling within the valid zone of your card. There was one case of a person on a point to point card over travelling every day. I think they got fined around 20 grand.

Cyrus · 14-01-2021 3:55pm

Hilly Bill wrote: »

It's just to make sure that card holders are travelling within the valid zone of your card. There was one case of a person on a point to point card over travelling every day. I think they got fined around 20 grand.

yes i understand that but if i get on in dalkey and dont tag on and get off in ballsbridge and dont tag off there is a journey that i could have taken that would be outside the validity of my annual ticket, whatever the case is when they scan it on their little machine there is never an issue.

Dravokivich · 14-01-2021 4:02pm

Cyrus wrote: »

i often do that, but i have an annual card so i have no reason to tag on or off.

You need to use the card to receive updates. You should see it more as a key, than a pass to flash.

Cyrus · 14-01-2021 4:03pm

Dravokivich wrote: »

You need to use the card to receive updates. You should see it more as a key, than a pass to flash.

updates ?

Dravokivich · 14-01-2021 4:06pm

Cyrus wrote: »

updates ?

Yeah.

How do you think your ticket gets onto it, or expiries extended?

If you aren't tagging on regularly, it's not recognised as an active card.

Marty Bird · 14-01-2021 4:11pm

OP there are 3 validators at Glenageary as you enter the station.

Cyrus · 14-01-2021 4:23pm

Dravokivich wrote: »

Yeah.

How do you think your ticket gets onto it, or expiries extended?

If you aren't tagging on regularly, it's not recognised as an active card.

its an annual card, ive literally gone months without tagging and it works fine when it needs to. anyway its a digression

Isambard · 14-01-2021 4:52pm

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Same principle at play. It tells you what sort of a ticket pass that you have used or your available cash/credit to hand, then it shows any other validation details that may be relevant. In the case of a train station you also have the readers on the entry/exit barriers where you can validate your card. Plenty of options to tag on, all told.

so if someone attempted to tag and there was a problem they'd know. I can't see grounds for appeal if the passenger didn't check it had tagged properly.

Marcusm · 14-01-2021 7:33pm

Cyrus wrote: »

its an annual card, ive literally gone months without tagging and it works fine when it needs to. anyway its a digression

Is it Dart only? Probably not applicable here but on other systems with multiple operators, validation of The card is a fundamental feature of revenue sharing betweeen the different transport operators, again not likely to be relevant here. IIRC it is a fine able offence on LT.

Cyrus · 14-01-2021 7:57pm

Marcusm wrote: »

Is it Dart only? Probably not applicable here but on other systems with multiple operators, validation of The card is a fundamental feature of revenue sharing betweeen the different transport operators, again not likely to be relevant here. IIRC it is a fine able offence on LT.

Dart only

Citrus_8 · 14-01-2021 11:19pm

Cyrus wrote: »

not sure about the T&Cs but the reality is i have probably validated my pass 5 times in the last year commuting and had it checked several times by an inspector and there was never an issue, so in practice there is no issue.

i have paid for my trip, why would there be.

For data measures. When you don't tap (and if there're 50 more people who don't), the TFI or Irish Rail may think there're let train users than actually are and reduce capacity by changing a schedule. I strongly recommend tapping.

L1011 · 15-01-2021 9:14am

RPU on Docklands services practically beg people to tap due to that - gates often left open and a huge % of the passengers would have annual tickets. Before March peak time peak direction trains were crush capacity but the ticketing stats would not reflect that

redman · 16-01-2021 7:35pm

Isambard wrote: »

so if someone attempted to tag and there was a problem they'd know. I can't see grounds for appeal if the passenger didn't check it had tagged properly.

She tried two terminals both didn't work. (didn't see third)
Their word against hers, and they did in the appeal... her option was not to travel but she's only a teenager and was going to school.
Inspector who fined her told her to say unit was faulty and they'd be grand lol

Dravokivich · 18-01-2021 11:01am

redman wrote: »

She tried two terminals both didn't work. (didn't see third)
Their word against hers, and they did in the appeal... her option was not to travel but she's only a teenager and was going to school.
Inspector who fined her told her to say unit was faulty and they'd be grand lol

I'm not having a go at you, but from Irish Rail's perspective, the expectation is, if one can't validate their leapcard, they purchase a ticket. Was there a ticket machine available also? sometimes they can be locked away.

goingnowhere · 18-01-2021 1:45pm

If all the leap card equipment is broken there is NO obligation to pay through other means (for Irish Rail this is the case)

This is where the magic of a smartphone comes into play

Photograph and video in these cases is worth its weight in gold.

If it ends up in court Irish Rail's case may fail when you ask why are there 3 validators on the side gate at Glenageary, it because they break so often

Losty Dublin · 18-01-2021 2:42pm

goingnowhere wrote: »

If all the leap card equipment is broken there is NO obligation to pay through other means (for Irish Rail this is the case)

Unless Leap was your sole means of purchasing a ticket, I doubt if this is actually the case.

goingnowhere · 18-01-2021 2:46pm

Irish Rail has to prove intent to defraud them of the fare. You hold a valid, in credit leap card, the equipment is broken, you are under no obligation to take further action.

If the ticket machine is broken on the bus you travel for free....

Losty Dublin · 18-01-2021 3:05pm

goingnowhere wrote: »

Irish Rail has to prove intent to defraud them of the fare. You hold a valid, in credit leap card, the equipment is broken, you are under no obligation to take further action.

If the ticket machine is broken on the bus you travel for free....

A Leap card is only a valid ticket if there's credit or a pass sitting on it and it can be validated at the time. If it's not valid for whatever reason/s then you need to get a ticket otherwise. In the case of a bus with a broken validator the driver is allowing you to travel so you have your permission to travel.

ED E · 18-01-2021 3:12pm

Just call the customer care number, report it out of service and take the persons name. On luas they'll tell you to travel, then you have the operators permission to be onboard.

Xterminator · 18-01-2021 4:01pm

goingnowhere wrote: »

Irish Rail has to prove intent to defraud them of the fare. You hold a valid, in credit leap card, the equipment is broken, you are under no obligation to take further action.

If the ticket machine is broken on the bus you travel for free....

how factually incorrect can you get? Did you even read the T's& C's ?

OP does not claim all the machines were broken. Simply that his teenager 'said' one of the validators was not working on the day in question.

They appealed and lost - likely on the factual basis there was a working validator on the day in question in the station.

Ticket Vending Machines are in operation throughout our network. These machines are monitored and regularly maintained to ensure that they are operational. Irish Rail is automatically notified if the TVMs are out of order. In the unlikely event that the booking office is closed and all the Ticket Vending Machines are not working, you will be required to pay for your journey on the train or at your destination. Failure to pay the required fare will result in a Fixed Payment Notice being issued.

L1011 · 18-01-2021 5:23pm

TVMs can be physically working but locked away inside a station building or their outdoor cabins which have shutters; or they can be on but not responding to screen inputs or whatever - its far from foolproof and claiming they are "automatically notified" is at best over-optimistic if not actually lying.

kirving · 18-01-2021 5:38pm

L1011 wrote: »

not responding to screen inputs or whatever - its far from foolproof and claiming they are "automatically notified" is at best over-optimistic if not actually lying.

I'd love to see how they can detect a non-working touchscreen in real time. Aerospace levels of redundancy would be needed - so I'd go for the lying option.

You would think whoever saw the daily tap on/off history on that card would use a bit of common sense and cancel the fine.

redman · 18-01-2021 5:51pm

Hi All

I appreciate all the replies and I paid the fine but also followed up with an FOI request on the machines.
So to be fair to Irish Rail they sent me a 3 page report showing tags from that morning, so clearly there was and my daughter didn't look around enough!

So lesson learnt for her.
I would still prefer to buy a set monthly/annual ticket for them (not much use at mo lol) to avoid in future, but they only sell the adult ones.

Stay well my boardsie friends !

Redman

goingnowhere · 18-01-2021 8:28pm

Xterminator wrote: »

how factually incorrect can you get? Did you even read the T's& C's ?

OP does not claim all the machines were broken. Simply that his teenager 'said' one of the validators was not working on the day in question.

They appealed and lost - likely on the factual basis there was a working validator on the day in question in the station.

I have yet to see anyone win an appeal. The whole appeals setup is to pacify you when dealing with the staff so you believe it is all a misunderstanding that will go away. It has no legal basis.

Those aren't the T&C's, thats a random piece of text which has no basis in law or the T&C's published. There are lots of things Irish Rail say you cannot do but are completely legal.

The law is what counts,
123(3)a Rail Safety Act 2005

travels or attempts to travel on a railway of a railway undertaking without having previously paid his or her fare, and with intent to avoid such payment,

Most important element is "intent to avoid", you show up with a valid leap card, you try to tap on it doesn't work as the validator is broken. You try the other validator, it doesn't work either. Its all on CCTV... The validators have a wonderful tendency to lock up and come back to life 10-15 minutes later.

You have demonstrated intent to pay and if you hold video or photographic proof Irish Rail haven't a hope to succeed in prosecution.

redman · 18-01-2021 8:33pm

I didn't know THAT! THANKS

Grolschevik · 18-01-2021 8:42pm

goingnowhere wrote: »

I have yet to see anyone win an appeal. The whole appeals setup is to pacify you when dealing with the staff so you believe it is all a misunderstanding that will go away. It has no legal basis.

Those aren't the T&C's, thats a random piece of text which has no basis in law or the T&C's published. There are lots of things Irish Rail say you cannot do but are completely legal.

The law is what counts,
123(3)a Rail Safety Act 2005

Most important element is "intent to avoid", you show up with a valid leap card, you try to tap on it doesn't work as the validator is broken. You try the other validator, it doesn't work either. Its all on CCTV... The validators have a wonderful tendency to lock up and come back to life 10-15 minutes later.

You have demonstrated intent to pay and if you hold video or photographic proof Irish Rail haven't a hope to succeed in prosecution.

I won an appeal. Broken machine, fined on arrival. Appealed, explained, fine cancelled.

prinzeugen · 18-01-2021 9:33pm

goingnowhere wrote: »

Most important element is "intent to avoid", you show up with a valid leap card, you try to tap on it doesn't work as the validator is broken. You try the other validator, it doesn't work either. Its all on CCTV... The validators have a wonderful tendency to lock up and come back to life 10-15 minutes later.

You have demonstrated intent to pay and if you hold video or photographic proof Irish Rail haven't a hope to succeed in prosecution.

That's not 100% correct. Trying every reader and then saying sod it and travelling anyway is not showing intent to pay.
You need to exhaust all other means of paying including buying a single ticket for your journey if you can't use your leap card at the departure point or destination.

Also a leap card is NOT valid for travel unless you have tapped on at a validator. The clue is in the name.
If people follow the advice that you have posted here they may find themselves in hot water.

timeToLive · 19-01-2021 4:14pm

Unfortunately it's a poorly thought out system and genuine customers will fall through the cracks from time to time. Today it's your daughter, tomorrow it's another poster here. I wonder how much money they have scammed from their own paying customers in total.

Marty Bird · 19-01-2021 4:20pm

timeToLive wrote: »

Unfortunately it's a poorly thought out system and genuine customers will fall through the cracks from time to time. Today it's your daughter, tomorrow it's another poster here. I wonder how much money they have scammed from their own paying customers in total.

Or another way of looking at it how much revenue do they lose to fare evasion from people doing exactly what this thread is about.

timeToLive · 19-01-2021 4:22pm

Marty Bird wrote: »

Or another way of looking at it how much revenue do they lose to fare evasion from people doing exactly what this thread is about.

The person we're talking about it a paying customer :eek:

They should look at how much they're losing due to faulty machines.

bucketybuck · 19-01-2021 4:30pm

goingnowhere wrote: »

Most important element is "intent to avoid", you show up with a valid leap card, you try to tap on it doesn't work as the validator is broken. You try the other validator, it doesn't work either. Its all on CCTV... The validators have a wonderful tendency to lock up and come back to life 10-15 minutes later.

You have demonstrated intent to pay and if you hold video or photographic proof Irish Rail haven't a hope to succeed in prosecution.

But this doesn't hold water.

If I had a valid card but I decided I didn't want to bother paying, in your example I could walk into the station, walk to the machines, take out a random card and pretend to tap them, then get on the train and claim that the machines were not working.

I thought by the way you were talking you had real evidence, not just some interpretation that is easily gainsaid.

Isambard · 19-01-2021 5:28pm

post 35 shows that the machine was working and evidence to show this was provided. Thus the tag was not performed properly or was forgotten altogether.

Seaswimmer · 19-01-2021 6:39pm

I am not a regular Dart user so maybe someone can answer my query.

Is a validator not part of a gate.
I touch my Leapcard, the gate opens and lets me through.
Surely if a validator is faulty then the gate dosent open or is permanently closed?
Are there validators on the Dart system on poles similar to the Luas where you can tag on without going through a gate?

L1011 · 19-01-2021 6:44pm

Seaswimmer wrote: »

I am not a regular Dart user so maybe someone can answer my query.

Is a validator not part of a gate.
I touch my Leapcard, the gate opens and lets me through.
Surely if a validator is faulty then the gate dosent open or is permanently closed?
Are there validators on the Dart system on poles similar to the Luas where you can tag on without going through a gate?

At ungated stations or platforms without gatelines within a gated station. So quite a lot of them

Akesh · 19-01-2021 6:48pm

Seaswimmer wrote: »

I am not a regular Dart user so maybe someone can answer my query.

Is a validator not part of a gate.
I touch my Leapcard, the gate opens and lets me through.
Surely if a validator is faulty then the gate dosent open or is permanently closed?
Are there validators on the Dart system on poles similar to the Luas where you can tag on without going through a gate?

Yes, the gates are often open. Sometimes when you need to tag on they won't work. 5 mins later they will be working. Sometimes that can be the difference between getting the last train or not.

I always take video evidence of validators not working in stations as you are wasting your time appealing to the RPU team.

The Luas has a far better system and better trained staff when there are problems.

monument · 22-01-2021 12:53pm

timeToLive wrote: »

Unfortunately it's a poorly thought out system and genuine customers will fall through the cracks from time to time. Today it's your daughter, tomorrow it's another poster here. I wonder how much money they have scammed from their own paying customers in total.

While I don’t like the word scammed here, this is a point too many posters and staff of companies need to reflect on.

I’m not an advocate of totally free public transport systems but the way some staff and others act about people who make mistakes pushes more towards thinking it’s a good idea. The system of fines isn’t supposed to be these for people who intended to pay and made a mistake.

If you’re reading this and thinking “but...”, your kind of view will likely be the number one reasoning for me eventually thinking a system of free access to public transport is worth it. I still think we’re not there yet, but you might push me towards it once other issues can be sorted.

Hilly Bill · 25-01-2021 12:01am

monument wrote: »

While I don’t like the word scammed here, this is a point too many posters and staff of companies need to reflect on.

I’m not an advocate of totally free public transport systems but the way some staff and others act about people who make mistakes pushes more towards thinking it’s a good idea. The system of fines isn’t supposed to be these for people who intended to pay and made a mistake.

If you’re reading this and thinking “but...”, your kind of view will likely be the number one reasoning for me eventually thinking a system of free access to public transport is worth it. I still think we’re not there yet, but you might push me towards it once other issues can be sorted.

It's free to far to many as it is. The fine is there for non payment genuine mistake or otherwise thats what appeal process is for. . Of course there are those that didn't intend to not pay and it's a costly error but there cant be a point where all someone has to say that it was a genuine mistake to get out from paying a fine. I couldn't get away with a parking ticket or a speeding fine by saying that I didn't intend to do it and it was a genuine mistake.

Hilly Bill · 25-01-2021 12:07am

goingnowhere wrote: »

I have yet to see anyone win an appeal. The whole appeals setup is to pacify you when dealing with the staff so you believe it is all a misunderstanding that will go away. It has no legal basis.

Those aren't the T&C's, thats a random piece of text which has no basis in law or the T&C's published. There are lots of things Irish Rail say you cannot do but are completely legal.

The law is what counts,
123(3)a Rail Safety Act 2005

Most important element is "intent to avoid", you show up with a valid leap card, you try to tap on it doesn't work as the validator is broken. You try the other validator, it doesn't work either. Its all on CCTV... The validators have a wonderful tendency to lock up and come back to life 10-15 minutes later.

You have demonstrated intent to pay and if you hold video or photographic proof Irish Rail haven't a hope to succeed in prosecution.

Only flow in that is that you would also need to provide proof that you had sufficient credit on the card for it to open the barrier.

prinzeugen · 19-02-2021 9:02pm

goingnowhere wrote: »

The law is what counts,
123(3)a Rail Safety Act 2005

Most important element is "intent to avoid", you show up with a valid leap card, you try to tap on it doesn't work as the validator is broken. You try the other validator, it doesn't work either. Its all on CCTV... The validators have a wonderful tendency to lock up and come back to life 10-15 minutes later.

You have demonstrated intent to pay and if you hold video or photographic proof Irish Rail haven't a hope to succeed in prosecution.

Fines are not issued for non payment however so what you posted is irrelevant.

They are issued for not producing a valid ticket when asked (section 132 as listed on a FPN) which can be for a multitude of reasons (Leap not tagged on, you were in a hurry/running late or just plain refusing to pay).

Dart Fine *& Appeal

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