General Premier League Thread 2020-21 - Mod Notes in 1st post. [Updated 17/12/20]

Fitz* · 06-01-2021 11:33AM

El Gato De Negocios wrote: »

Of course there would be frustration from a manager when decisions dont go their way or they feel hard done by but name dropping your clubs most hated rival when there is virtually no difference in the number of penalties awarded this season makes him look like a bit of a dope and that United have gotten into his head. A dodgy United penalty to win it on the 17th and we could well see a nuclear meltdown over Anfield. Fingers crossed anyway.:pac:

I don't think it's the number of penalties that is the issue, it's more the manner of them.

For example Man Utd get given a penalty (Pogba incident) while the game is level midweek. Whether you think Pogba was clipped or where you think Pogba kicked himself is irrelevant as it was extremely soft. But the penalty was given. A few days later, while the Chelsea - Man City game was level, a similar incident happened with Werner I think it was and nothing given. Then a day later, Mane is clipped while Liverpool are losing and again nothing is given.

Why is the same standard not being applied to all incidents? That's where the frustration lies- because Man Utd are getting the soft penalties are other teams are not. As I said a week or two back, getting the rub of the green on incidents like that is a big factor behind the upsurge up the table.

yourdeadwright · 06-01-2021 11:39AM

Fitz* wrote: »

I don't think it's the number of penalties that is the issue, it's more the manner of them.

For example Man Utd get given a penalty (Pogba incident) while the game is level midweek. Whether you think Pogba was clipped or where you think Pogba kicked himself is irrelevant as it was extremely soft. But the penalty was given. A few days later, while the Chelsea - Man City game was level, a similar incident happened with Werner I think it was and nothing given. Then a day later, Mane is clipped while Liverpool are losing and again nothing is given.

Why is the same standard not being applied to all incidents? That's where the frustration lies- because Man Utd are getting the soft penalties are other teams are not. As I said a week or two back, getting the rub of the green on incidents like that is a big factor behind the upsurge up the table.

Exactly my point you can see how mangers get frustrated ,
The Werner one again like Mane's if the ref gives it VAR would not over rule him , Pogba just go the luck of the ref giving it in real time ,
To be fair in real time the Pogba one probably looked more of a peno than the other two and that why the ref blew but when you see them slowed down on VAR there is no difference in all 3 ,

pjohnson · 06-01-2021 11:45AM

United also have more center backs if Klopp wants to keep comparing the two clubs.

This is it · 06-01-2021 11:55AM

Fitz* wrote: »

I don't think it's the number of penalties that is the issue, it's more the manner of them.

For example Man Utd get given a penalty (Pogba incident) while the game is level midweek. Whether you think Pogba was clipped or where you think Pogba kicked himself is irrelevant as it was extremely soft. But the penalty was given. A few days later, while the Chelsea - Man City game was level, a similar incident happened with Werner I think it was and nothing given. Then a day later, Mane is clipped while Liverpool are losing and again nothing is given.

Why is the same standard not being applied to all incidents? That's where the frustration lies- because Man Utd are getting the soft penalties are other teams are not. As I said a week or two back, getting the rub of the green on incidents like that is a big factor behind the upsurge up the table.

It wasn't soft if he was clipped... Which he was. I didn't see the Liverpool match so I don't know if they should've been awarded penalties but I will say, swings and roundabouts. In my opinion these things all balance out, United get a peno here, Liverpool get a ricochet there, City get something else somewhere else.

This is it · 06-01-2021 11:56AM

pjohnson wrote: »

United also have more center backs if Klopp wants to keep comparing the two clubs.

He wants the United penalties, doubt he wants any United CBs

yourdeadwright · 06-01-2021 11:57AM

This is it wrote: »

It wasn't soft if he was clipped... Which he was. I didn't see the Liverpool match so I don't know if they should've been awarded penalties but I will say, swings and roundabouts. In my opinion these things all balance out, United get a peno here, Liverpool get a ricochet there, City get something else somewhere else.

One thing that annoys me about football now no matter what the team is that ref will go look at the monitor and if there is contact they give it,

For me contact alone should not mean its a penalty, there can be contact that makes absolutely no difference to the outcome of the attack ,

That's regardless of what teams are involved

El Gato De Negocios · 06-01-2021 12:07PM

Fitz* wrote: »

I don't think it's the number of penalties that is the issue, it's more the manner of them.

For example Man Utd get given a penalty (Pogba incident) while the game is level midweek. Whether you think Pogba was clipped or where you think Pogba kicked himself is irrelevant as it was extremely soft. But the penalty was given. A few days later, while the Chelsea - Man City game was level, a similar incident happened with Werner I think it was and nothing given. Then a day later, Mane is clipped while Liverpool are losing and again nothing is given.

Why is the same standard not being applied to all incidents? That's where the frustration lies- because Man Utd are getting the soft penalties are other teams are not. As I said a week or two back, getting the rub of the green on incidents like that is a big factor behind the upsurge up the table.

Imo the biggest issue for Klopp and LFC fans in general is that ye arent running away with the league this season so these marginal calls are analysed to the nth degree. Ye have had some serious slices of good fortune over the last couple of seasons that ye have not gotten this season so far. If ye were still winning games the penalty calls or whatever would be laughed off but because ye arent getting the rub of the green this season aswell as having some injuries and alot of the previously reliable players misfiring, the ire is directed at referees and VAR. These marginal calls do balance themselves out over the course of a season and I have no doubt that ye will get a dodgy penalty here or there before the end of the campaign, its the nature of the beast.

DM_7 · 06-01-2021 12:31PM

This is it wrote: »

It wasn't soft if he was clipped... Which he was. I didn't see the Liverpool match so I don't know if they should've been awarded penalties but I will say, swings and roundabouts. In my opinion these things all balance out, United get a peno here, Liverpool get a ricochet there, City get something else somewhere else.

https://twitter.com/DaleJohnsonESPN/status/1346058770279854082?s=19

Yep, it has always been the case that contact with legs is likely to be viewed as a trip (if ball is not won) as even minimal contact can disrupt a stride and cause a loss of balance. While relatively minor 'body' contact is less likely to be viewed as a trip.

VAR had no basis to consider the ref made a mistake as there is clear contact and disruption of the players footing.

The original decision of the ref in such a case is key, the ref gave a pen. VAR would have to advise it was an error, how could VAR do that when Pogba's stride was disrupted aka a trip.

Re Mane I think Liverpool are right to think pen, if it was given it would have stood for certain. The square challenge does not go across Mane so ref probably thought it was okay based on that. On the replay it is clear he gets his leg across Mane and trips him in the second part after the initial effort to compete for the ball. I think it should be a pen. On the subjective level I can see a reason it would not be given as the player made a challenge, did not impede at that point but the action continues so the decision point should move on imo.

06-01-2021 12:32PM

Klopp is the best manager in the league.

He is sometimes a bit childish in interviews.

yourdeadwright · 06-01-2021 12:52PM

The best hate losing its nothing new

Pep, Jose are the same, Fergie was also the same its what make them winners

06-01-2021 12:55PM

DM_7 wrote: »

https://twitter.com/DaleJohnsonESPN/status/1346058770279854082?s=19

Yep, it has always been the case that contact with legs are viewed as a trip (if ball is not won) as even minimal contact can disrupt a stride and cause a loss of balance. While realtively minor 'body' contact is less likely to be viewed as a trip.

VAR had no basis to consider the ref made a mistake as there is clear contact and disruption of the players footing.

The original decision of the ref in such a case is key, the ref gave a pen. VAR would have to advise it was an error, how could VAR do that when Pogba's stride was disrupted aka a trip.

Re Mane I think Liverpool are right to think pen, if it was given it would have stood for certain. The square challenge does not go across Mane so ref probably thought it was okay based in that. On the replay it is clear he gets his leg across Mane and trips him in the second part after the initial effort to compete for the ball. I think it should be a pen. On the subjective level I can see a reason it would not be given as the player made a challenge, did not impede at that point but the action continues so the decision point should move on.

That looked an obvious dive by Mane in real time and the replay was not clear enough to give. Mane was diving all over the shop throughout the game. You reap what you sow as many United players have found out from going down easily the last few seasons. I'd say on balance it's a foul in the Mane case but it's 55/45 rather than being obvious.

Fitz* · 06-01-2021 01:47PM

El Gato De Negocios wrote: »

Imo the biggest issue for Klopp and LFC fans in general is that ye arent running away with the league this season so these marginal calls are analysed to the nth degree. Ye have had some serious slices of good fortune over the last couple of seasons that ye have not gotten this season so far. If ye were still winning games the penalty calls or whatever would be laughed off but because ye arent getting the rub of the green this season aswell as having some injuries and alot of the previously reliable players misfiring, the ire is directed at referees and VAR. These marginal calls do balance themselves out over the course of a season and I have no doubt that ye will get a dodgy penalty here or there before the end of the campaign, its the nature of the beast.

I'd be interested in hearing about those. The whole myth of LiVARpool was created last season as a coping mechanism of these so called 'neutrals', even when there was some very questionable decisions given against Liverpool. One of the most famous incidents was given against Liverpool last season at Villa Park. Which was also the scene of a bad call this season, along with a host of others. I'm still waiting for them to even out cos there is a backlog developing

Any fan can accept any one call going against a club in a game. Didn't get the decision but the same thing happens next week and you do. Fair enough. But when there are multiple in one game, or such inconsistencies between game to game or even club to club, it's extremely grating and becomes more difficult. The list start starts to grow and grow and frustration builds. It's natural to be angry then.

But to be honest, it's only going to clog up the thread so let's just leave it at that.

Back to the topic of penalties, here is a quote that Alex Ferguson came out with a few years ago before a Manchester Derby - "The number of penalty kicks they get – 21 in the last year or something like that. If we got that number there'd be an inquiry in the House of Commons. There'd be a protest."

This whole idea that it is unique to Klopp to mention an opponent getting penalties is ridiculous. All managers do it. It's nothing new. It's s clear tactic that has been in operation for years. Ferguson was probably the one that started it! Putting doubt in the referees head before the game.

This is it · 06-01-2021 01:53PM

yourdeadwright wrote: »

One thing that annoys me about football now no matter what the team is that ref will go look at the monitor and if there is contact they give it,

For me contact alone should not mean its a penalty, there can be contact that makes absolutely no difference to the outcome of the attack ,

That's regardless of what teams are involved

Not sure what that has to do with my post but I'd agree that contact alone does not equal a foul, but in the case mentioned, Pogba was tripped. Even a slight nudge on the leg of someone running can throw them off balance. It's a foul all day long for me.

DM_7 · 06-01-2021 02:05PM

Klopp is looking to influence future decisions, and why wouldn't he. Same as Jose earlier in the season or Ole today responding to say as much and that it worked for Lampard last season in the FA Cup semi.

Reality is pens are not given on a quota basis. Brighton have same as United (6) but not much is made of them.

Utopia Parkway · 06-01-2021 02:45PM

El Gato De Negocios wrote: »

Imo the biggest issue for Klopp and LFC fans in general is that ye arent running away with the league this season so these marginal calls are analysed to the nth degree. Ye have had some serious slices of good fortune over the last couple of seasons that ye have not gotten this season so far. If ye were still winning games the penalty calls or whatever would be laughed off but because ye arent getting the rub of the green this season aswell as having some injuries and alot of the previously reliable players misfiring, the ire is directed at referees and VAR. These marginal calls do balance themselves out over the course of a season and I have no doubt that ye will get a dodgy penalty here or there before the end of the campaign, its the nature of the beast.

I won't get into the "ye were lucky" narrative as it's just nonsense but the stats tell us that Liverpool will need a LOT of marginal calls to go their way to balance up the ledger in the 2nd half of the season.

Even last season when they were apparently LiVARpool they were only around mid table for VAR decisions (Brighton and United were actually way ahead of anyone else at the top). None of these claims ever had much basis in fact.

El Gato De Negocios · 06-01-2021 04:41PM

Utopia Parkway wrote: »

I won't get into the "ye were lucky" narrative as it's just nonsense but the stats tell us that Liverpool will need a LOT of marginal calls to go their way to balance up the ledger in the 2nd half of the season.

Even last season when they were apparently LiVARpool they were only around mid table for VAR decisions (Brighton and United were actually way ahead of anyone else at the top). None of these claims ever had much basis in fact.

I wasnt referring solely to VAR decisions or penalties but there were alot of things that bounced yer way last season. Im not for one second suggesting that ye were undeserving winners or that ye were lucky to win it, its clear as day ye were head and shoulders above the rest of the league but little things eg the Pickford clanger to allow Origi to score, a 95th minute penalty to win it against Leicester following a keeper and defender faux pas and Mane taking somewhat of a theatrical fall to the ground, against Wolves having a contentious goal allowed after a possible handball and one ruled out in their favour for offside. The point being, "the rub of the green" tends to come in swings and roundabouts for all teams, be it opponents making a bags of something or dubious calls going in your favour. If the team were firing like they were for most of last season the things that have gone against ye would be moot but because ye have been in the main far from your best as well as not getting the little slices of luck that come up from time to time, its seen as some massive conspiracy.

nullzero · 06-01-2021 04:43PM

So are Manchester United running VAR?

yourdeadwright · 06-01-2021 04:47PM

El Gato De Negocios wrote: »

I wasnt referring solely to VAR decisions or penalties but there were alot of things that bounced yer way last season. Im not for one second suggesting that ye were undeserving winners or that ye were lucky to win it, its clear as day ye were head and shoulders above the rest of the league but little things eg the Pickford clanger to allow Origi to score, a 95th minute penalty to win it against Leicester following a keeper and defender faux pas and Mane taking somewhat of a theatrical fall to the ground, against Wolves having a contentious goal allowed after a possible handball and one ruled out in their favour for offside. The point being, "the rub of the green" tends to come in swings and roundabouts for all teams, be it opponents making a bags of something or dubious calls going in your favour. If the team were firing like they were for most of last season the things that have gone against ye would be moot but because ye have been in the main far from your best as well as not getting the little slices of luck that come up from time to time, its seen as some massive conspiracy.

Pickford clanger was not last season , it was the previous one when Liverpool finished second , Last seasons was 5- 2 against Everton

MD1990 · 06-01-2021 05:02PM

pjohnson wrote: »

United also have more center backs if Klopp wants to keep comparing the two clubs.

what about European cups

El Gato De Negocios · 06-01-2021 05:17PM

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Pickford clanger was not last season , it was the previous one when Liverpool finished second , Last seasons was 5- 2 against Everton

My mistake, could have sworn it was last season.

The_Kew_Tour · 06-01-2021 09:41PM

City showing everyone tonight why United won't be winning the league

nullzero · 06-01-2021 09:50PM

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

City showing everyone tonight why United won't be winning the league

You'd have to fancy City to win it comfortably at this juncture.

06-01-2021 09:54PM

nullzero wrote: »

You'd have to fancy City to win it comfortably at this juncture.

At a canter

ShamoBuc · 06-01-2021 09:56PM

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

City showing everyone tonight why United won't be winning the league

While a Pool v Utd title battle will be built up as a Sky narrative, City are the team to finish ahead of. Tonight was a clear example of why.

giveitholly · 06-01-2021 09:57PM

nullzero wrote: »

You'd have to fancy City to win it comfortably at this juncture.

Yeah reckon they will win it by at least 10 points

nullzero · 06-01-2021 10:22PM

giveitholly wrote: »

Yeah reckon they will win it by at least 10 points

Potentially, hitting form at the right time, key players coming back into the fold, they have everything at their disposal to win it at a canter.

In fact the only thing standing between them and the title now is themselves, keeping the required level of consistency.

It's been wide open this season, City are best placed to take advantage right now.

osarusan · 07-01-2021 11:08AM

yourdeadwright wrote: »

The best hate losing its nothing new

Pep, Jose are the same, Fergie was also the same its what make them winners

Agree with this.

When Man City were winning all round them, Pep came across as very charming, insightful, even philosophical. But things weren't going their way, he came across as just as much a petty whiner as anybody else.

Mourhinho is the same, very charismatic at his best, but utterly obnoxious at his worst.

I also think there's an element of what the supporters at a club will tolerate. At the clubs at the top of the table (or who have expectations of being there), managers just can't admit they got much wrong at all.

I remember when Moyes was at Everton, and they went to places like Man United and Arsenal and were just well beaten, he would come out in interviews afterwards and say they were just beaten by a better team. He was able to do that as Everton fans could accept that, and came across as a fairly straight talker as a result.

Then he went to Man United, and he could no longer say that they were just beaten by a better team, even when they obviously were, and had to resort to the same groundless bleating as everybody else.

Massive egos needed to succeed, but the same egos need to be protected and they bruise very easily.

rob316 · 07-01-2021 12:28PM

City should be winning it but I wouldn't get too excited yet, they've still only managed 3 wins in a row this season.

jacool · 07-01-2021 01:42PM

rob316 wrote: »

City should be winning it but I wouldn't get too excited yet, they've still only managed 3 wins in a row this season.

Agreed.

Between the 6th of Feb and the 6th of March, Man City play Liverpool, Tottenham, Arsenal and Man Utd.
That’s a massive month, so I don’t see their name on the trophy just yet.
This season has been too topsy-turvy thus far to say that its one teams or another’s.
Apparently we are only 43% through so far.

yourdeadwright · 07-01-2021 02:55PM

Villa training ground closed due to Covid

General Premier League Thread 2020-21 - Mod Notes in 1st post. [Updated 17/12/20]

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