Is anyone else starting to become a bit excited?

makeorbrake · 02-01-2021 06:00PM

Bob24 · 02-01-2021 06:01PM

LedgerSuck wrote: »

Why are people like this lol. Nothing has changed with BTC before and after $3-4k

So true :-)

But to be fair, another side of the coin is that some institutions can’t touch assets which have too small a market cap due to regulation or their own internal rules. So it is very possible that some fund managers have been willing to buy for some time but are forced to wait for the price to increase before BTC is large enough to fit their organisation’s investment framework.

LedgerSuck · 02-01-2021 06:03PM

makeorbrake wrote: »

Have paypal now opened up their crypto offering to the rest of the world (beyond the US) or has that yet to happen?

I actually forgot it wasn't globally available yet, Jesus, if it's scheduled for the end of Q1 then that'll be another decent wall of money ready to pour into the market

We're at $600bn marketcap at the moment, so even though $30k+ seems mad to some people, I think once it hits a $1tn marketcap it'll be another turning point

LedgerSuck · 02-01-2021 06:06PM

Bob24 wrote: »

Yes, retail is playing a role but I also think institutions are on the driver’s seat.

And agreed, IMO it would be a mistake to think that because it is happening on the weekend it means it is retail action. Institutions have sophisticated purchase plans including algorithmic purchases and people monitoring the market on weeks.

Spot on, look at MicroSrategy, Michael Saylor said they set up their buys to purchase tiny amounts every few seconds for days or weeks on end, and that would've been 24/7 - Saylor has publicly told Elon Musk to get in touch with him - and apparently Musk did - so I'd be certain other CEOs or companies would be getting in touch with him for suggestions and advice, as Michael would be more than willing to offer same as he stands to benefit so much from doing so

baalad · 02-01-2021 06:17PM

cnocbui wrote: »

I believe converting to stable coin is a CGT event, so factor in that juicy 33% of any profits above your tax free threshold you should be withdrwing as fiat to pay to Revenue.

How does CPT work though?

Lets say iam trading and one week iam up money and withdraw a few quid. Another week i do the same. Maybe the following week i make a loss etc

How does revenue know / calculate what iam putting in and what iam getting out as actual profit??

I have no idea how it works so just looking to get a grasp on that!

It seems exiting is the most stressful part of investing from what i can see. If your not careful you can lose a huge chunk of your profit between exchanging your crypto and then CGT etc

I literally thought it was as simply as selling your crypto back to the exchange for euros and they transfer it straight into your bank account lol

Gooey Looey · 02-01-2021 06:20PM

baalad wrote: »

How does CPT work though?

Lets say iam trading and one week iam up money and withdraw a few quid. Another week i do the same. Maybe the following week i make a loss etc

How does revenue know / calculate what iam putting in and what iam getting out as actual profit??

I have no idea how it works so just looking to get a grasp on that!

It seems exiting is the most stressful part of investing from what i can see. If your not careful you can lose a huge chunk of your profit between exchanging your crypto and then CGT etc

I literally thought it was as simply as selling your crypto back to the exchange for euros and they transfer it straight into your bank account lol

Revenue expect you to self calculate it and pay whatever you think you owe!

Dohnjoe · 02-01-2021 06:21PM

Glad to see dogecoin going a bit mental.

Bob24 · 02-01-2021 06:26PM

baalad wrote: »

How does revenue know / calculate what iam putting in and what iam getting out as actual profit??

They don’t know the details of all your transactions. You need to self calculate your gains and pay the amount accordingly (yes, it is a pain :-/).

Of course it doesn’t mean anyone should make-up figures as they can do audits (and while I doubt the have feeds from crypto-exchanges, I am pretty sure they have a lot of information from banks in terms of any large incoming transfers into people’s accounts).

makeorbrake · 02-01-2021 06:38PM

Bob24 wrote: »

But to be fair, another side of the coin is that some institutions can’t touch assets which have too small a market cap due to regulation or their own internal rules. So it is very possible that some fund managers have been willing to buy for some time but are forced to wait for the price to increase before BTC is large enough to fit their organisation’s investment framework.

You're absolutely right. Taking Ray Dalio's hedge fund as a case in point, Dalio had written off BTC but he did say in recent weeks that he may have misunderstood it and was prepared to have another look. However, even if he wanted to, his hedgefund is probably too big to enter the market yet - he/it will have to wait until btc reaches a certain market cap.

Bob24 wrote: »

Of course it doesn’t mean anyone should make-up figures as they can do audits (and while I doubt the have feeds from crypto-exchanges, I am pretty sure they have a lot of information from banks in terms of any large incoming transfers into people’s accounts).

People should plan carefully. The top crypto exchanges are professional and compliant. They will dish up data to revenue on request. Governments and public authorities are incredibly inefficient but revenue have all the time in the world - 6 years worth of time in this case (they can go back 6 years). They will do a crypto related audit at some stage. Anyone here should be cognizant of that in their approach to paying their dues.

Irish_rat · 02-01-2021 06:38PM

baalad wrote: »

How does revenue know / calculate what iam putting in and what iam getting out as actual profit??

Self assessment.

Personally have no plan to sell, hope to accumulate for next few years.

1270 gain tax free each year, no payment but you should file a return

02-01-2021 06:41PM

Don't dodge tax if possible. The penalties are mind boggling and can actually cripple people financially.

02-01-2021 07:14PM

And it's wrong

cnocbui · 02-01-2021 07:20PM

Bob24 wrote: »

So true :-)

But to be fair, another side of the coin is that some institutions can’t touch assets which have too small a market cap due to regulation or their own internal rules. So it is very possible that some fund managers have been willing to buy for some time but are forced to wait for the price to increase before BTC is large enough to fit their organisation’s investment framework.

Is that a anything like a new years resolution, these self imposed rules?

makeorbrake · 02-01-2021 07:21PM

Deleted User wrote: »

And it's wrong

33%? You're absolutely right - it is wrong! It was 20% up until the last financial crisis - that's reasonable but 33% isn't.

I've deliberately taken to misunderstanding your point but the above is a serious point too. At what point do people stand up and push back against what's unreasonable? Other than making that point, I agree that we all should pay our taxes.

Oat23 · 02-01-2021 07:25PM

Irish_rat wrote: »

Self assessment.

Personally have no plan to sell, hope to accumulate for next few years.

1270 gain tax free each year, no payment but you should file a return

I have no plans to sell either but I'm also concerned about taxes when the day comes that I do.

I have no receipts of any kind. I purchased around 95% of my BTC on MtGOX which is obviously long gone. The safest thing to do is probably to treat all of it as a gain and pay tax on 100% of it? I'm certain I spent at least a grand, but without the proof I could get myself into some bother if I put €1000 down as my investment and later on the tax man decides to audit me and I can't back that up with receipts.

makeorbrake · 02-01-2021 07:30PM

cnocbui wrote: »

Is that a anything like a new years resolution, these self imposed rules?

It's partly regulatory and partly practicality. The former speaks for itself. The latter - it's a case of liquidity. The market is plenty liquid enough for you or I. If you're some giant of a hedge fund, it's a different story and those guys won't enter a market where there isnt sufficient liquidity for them to get in and get out in an instant.

That's why there's still more time for any other projects coming through - as they're so much smaller still than btc.

cnocbui · 02-01-2021 07:30PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

And it's wrong

Please explain DIRT to me, because I have never understood the reasoning behind it.

02-01-2021 07:37PM

makeorbrake wrote: »

33%? You're absolutely right - it is wrong! It was 20% up until the last financial crisis - that's reasonable but 33% isn't.

I've deliberately taken to misunderstanding your point but the above is a serious point too. At what point do people stand up and push back against what's unreasonable? Other than making that point, I agree that we all should pay our taxes.

I agree the rate is ridiculous. But if we're making money off markets and not paying the taxes due, ie evasion rather than avoidance, we're no different to any traditional financiers evading tax, and lose the right to criticise anyone who doesn't pay their fair share, or dole spongers etc.

You push back on the tax by voting, and influencing those who receive votes. Not ignoring law like a Trump supporter.

Lest we want these markets to be forever considered illegitimate.

02-01-2021 07:38PM

cnocbui wrote: »

Please explain DIRT to me, because I have never understood the reasoning behind it.

Reasoning is irrelevant surely? Or is it true what people are saying about crypto, the biggest features are tax evasion and money laundering?

makeorbrake · 02-01-2021 07:45PM

Deleted User wrote: »

You push back on the tax by voting, and influencing those who receive votes. Not ignoring law like a Trump supporter.

Don't worry - I'm in the 'orange coin good, orange man bad' camp.

Deleted User wrote: »

Or is it true what people are saying about crypto, the biggest features are tax evasion and money laundering?

That has been said - it's still said but less than it used to be. Ironically, cash is far better for that purpose but people don't seem to get as animated about that comparatively.
What people have to be careful with there is that we don't throw out something that has the potential to act as a societal good just because that same innovation/tech can be used in the opposite direction. There are plenty of examples where that approach has been taken - and I'm not on board with it.
You'll probably find that over the (much) longer term, we move to point of use tax models as the tech now exists to do so - and it's far more equitable.

LedgerSuck · 02-01-2021 07:48PM

makeorbrake wrote: »

33%? You're absolutely right - it is wrong! It was 20% up until the last financial crisis - that's reasonable but 33% isn't.

I've deliberately taken to misunderstanding your point but the above is a serious point too. At what point do people stand up and push back against what's unreasonable? Other than making that point, I agree that we all should pay our taxes.

We've got Scandinavian level taxes without the benefit of scandinavian quality public services. It's no wonder people hate the CGT rate and threshold we have here, 33% is so insane that I would applaud anyone who ends up relocating to avoid it. The threshold is abysmal as well, €1,270, pathetic! We're one of the most unfriendly countries when it comes to investing in Europe, and you'd think they'd be trying to help individuals by encouraging investing as a means to become some bit more self sustained with our exorbitant cost of living as well

Bob24 · 02-01-2021 08:00PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

You push back on the tax by voting, and influencing those who receive votes.

Just a quick comment as this getting off-topic, but I don’t think their was any way you could have voted in recent elections which would have resulted in lowering CGT. Realistically if someone is unhappy about the rate, the only vote which will make a difference for them is voting with their feet (which a few people on this forum have as part of their future plan shall BTC follow the S2F model).

cnocbui · 02-01-2021 08:01PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Reasoning is irrelevant surely? Or is it true what people are saying about crypto, the biggest features are tax evasion and money laundering?

You seem to have an agenda. Funny how such people suddenly show great interest in crypto when BTC goes mental.
I pay all my taxes, which is why I resent some of them so much, so nice try with the inference there.

Reasoning is not irrelevant. The moral basis for taxation is made a bit plastic by the actions of governments, to a certain extent. For instance, I believe USC was justified to the public as a 'temporary' measure. If a political party makes a taxation intention while campaigning for election, then reneges on it once in power, in my eyes such measures are illegitimate, even if technically valid, but i'll end it there as it's getting too OT.

baalad · 02-01-2021 08:09PM

Gooey Looey wrote: »

Revenue expect you to self calculate it and pay whatever you think you owe!

Huh?? Are you joking ? So i can theoretically invest 10k Make 100k and just hand them 2k and be like yeah thats all i owe you?? lol

RasTa · 02-01-2021 08:10PM

06-25-15 14:37:57 +0100 Trade Euro (EUR) -€114.99 €0.00 €0.00
LA6Z5F 06-25-15 14:37:57 +0100 Trade Bitcoin (XBT) ₿0.53319 ₿0.00186 ₿0.53132

That 14g's of super strong stuff from Canada seemed like a good idea at the time. Only half a BTC

baalad · 02-01-2021 08:12PM

Bob24 wrote: »

They don’t know the details of all your transactions. You need to self calculate your gains and pay the amount accordingly (yes, it is a pain :-/).

Of course it doesn’t mean anyone should make-up figures as they can do audits (and while I doubt the have feeds from crypto-exchanges, I am pretty sure they have a lot of information from banks in terms of any large incoming transfers into people’s accounts).

I never heard of an audit being carried out on someones personal bank account though! They will usually only do an audit if they have reason to believe your dodging tax. You attempting to pay CGT is hardly a good enough reason to do an audit

Doodee · 02-01-2021 08:15PM

baalad wrote: »

Huh?? Are you joking ? So i can theoretically invest 10k Make 100k and just hand them 2k and be like yeah thats all i owe you?? lol

When the 100k hits your bank account the bank will inform revenue. If you declare only 2k then you will have 6 years of suspense waiting for the audit.

baalad · 02-01-2021 08:16PM

Irish_rat wrote: »

Self assessment.

Personally have no plan to sell, hope to accumulate for next few years.

1270 gain tax free each year, no payment but you should file a return

That figure is pathetic though! I mean if they are going to Charge 33% CGT then there should at least be a bigger tax free allowance each year!

You should be tax free on your first 10% minimum in my opinion and whatever you have left after that point is CGT

baalad · 02-01-2021 08:18PM

Doodee wrote: »

When the 100k hits your bank account the bank will inform revenue. If you declare only 2k then you will have 6 years of suspense waiting for the audit.

Yeah. Not good! Id rather pay up and have a clear conscience, although there is ways to avoid CGT right? or so i was told recently (haven't looked into it or anything)

Bob24 · 02-01-2021 08:21PM

baalad wrote: »

I never heard of an audit being carried out on someones personal bank account though! They will usually only do an audit if they have reason to believe your dodging tax. You attempting to pay CGT is hardly a good enough reason to do an audit

I am not a tax specialist, but I am pretty sure that if someone receives a large sum of money on their bank account from an exchange, their bank will flag it to Revenue which might ask where it comes from.

And while I don’t thinks it is the case yet, eventually all large exchanges will share information with them (they are already sharing data with tax authorities in larger countries).

But at the end of the day, all this is pretty much irrelevant. Regardless of what information Revenue has, it is illegal to misreport capital gains (no matter how stupid the taxation system is).

Is anyone else starting to become a bit excited?

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