Is anyone else starting to become a bit excited?

makeorbrake wrote: »

33%? You're absolutely right - it is wrong! It was 20% up until the last financial crisis - that's reasonable but 33% isn't.

I've deliberately taken to misunderstanding your point but the above is a serious point too. At what point do people stand up and push back against what's unreasonable? Other than making that point, I agree that we all should pay our taxes.

We've got Scandinavian level taxes without the benefit of scandinavian quality public services. It's no wonder people hate the CGT rate and threshold we have here, 33% is so insane that I would applaud anyone who ends up relocating to avoid it. The threshold is abysmal as well, €1,270, pathetic! We're one of the most unfriendly countries when it comes to investing in Europe, and you'd think they'd be trying to help individuals by encouraging investing as a means to become some bit more self sustained with our exorbitant cost of living as well

Deleted User wrote: »

You push back on the tax by voting, and influencing those who receive votes. Not ignoring law like a Trump supporter.

Don't worry - I'm in the 'orange coin good, orange man bad' camp.

Deleted User wrote: »

Or is it true what people are saying about crypto, the biggest features are tax evasion and money laundering?

That has been said - it's still said but less than it used to be. Ironically, cash is far better for that purpose but people don't seem to get as animated about that comparatively.
What people have to be careful with there is that we don't throw out something that has the potential to act as a societal good just because that same innovation/tech can be used in the opposite direction. There are plenty of examples where that approach has been taken - and I'm not on board with it.
You'll probably find that over the (much) longer term, we move to point of use tax models as the tech now exists to do so - and it's far more equitable.

cnocbui wrote: »

Please explain DIRT to me, because I have never understood the reasoning behind it.

Reasoning is irrelevant surely? Or is it true what people are saying about crypto, the biggest features are tax evasion and money laundering?

makeorbrake wrote: »

33%? You're absolutely right - it is wrong! It was 20% up until the last financial crisis - that's reasonable but 33% isn't.

I've deliberately taken to misunderstanding your point but the above is a serious point too. At what point do people stand up and push back against what's unreasonable? Other than making that point, I agree that we all should pay our taxes.

I agree the rate is ridiculous. But if we're making money off markets and not paying the taxes due, ie evasion rather than avoidance, we're no different to any traditional financiers evading tax, and lose the right to criticise anyone who doesn't pay their fair share, or dole spongers etc.

You push back on the tax by voting, and influencing those who receive votes. Not ignoring law like a Trump supporter.

Lest we want these markets to be forever considered illegitimate.

cnocbui

[Deleted User] wrote: »

And it's wrong

Please explain DIRT to me, because I have never understood the reasoning behind it.

cnocbui wrote: »

Is that a anything like a new years resolution, these self imposed rules?

It's partly regulatory and partly practicality. The former speaks for itself. The latter - it's a case of liquidity. The market is plenty liquid enough for you or I. If you're some giant of a hedge fund, it's a different story and those guys won't enter a market where there isnt sufficient liquidity for them to get in and get out in an instant.

That's why there's still more time for any other projects coming through - as they're so much smaller still than btc.

Oat23

Irish_rat wrote: »

Self assessment.

Personally have no plan to sell, hope to accumulate for next few years.

1270 gain tax free each year, no payment but you should file a return

I have no plans to sell either but I'm also concerned about taxes when the day comes that I do.

I have no receipts of any kind. I purchased around 95% of my BTC on MtGOX which is obviously long gone. The safest thing to do is probably to treat all of it as a gain and pay tax on 100% of it? I'm certain I spent at least a grand, but without the proof I could get myself into some bother if I put €1000 down as my investment and later on the tax man decides to audit me and I can't back that up with receipts.

Deleted User wrote: »

And it's wrong

33%? You're absolutely right - it is wrong! It was 20% up until the last financial crisis - that's reasonable but 33% isn't.

I've deliberately taken to misunderstanding your point but the above is a serious point too. At what point do people stand up and push back against what's unreasonable? Other than making that point, I agree that we all should pay our taxes.

cnocbui

Bob24 wrote: »

So true :-)

But to be fair, another side of the coin is that some institutions can’t touch assets which have too small a market cap due to regulation or their own internal rules. So it is very possible that some fund managers have been willing to buy for some time but are forced to wait for the price to increase before BTC is large enough to fit their organisation’s investment framework.

Is that a anything like a new years resolution, these self imposed rules?

And it's wrong

Don't dodge tax if possible. The penalties are mind boggling and can actually cripple people financially.

Irish_rat

baalad wrote: »

How does revenue know / calculate what iam putting in and what iam getting out as actual profit??

Self assessment.

Personally have no plan to sell, hope to accumulate for next few years.

1270 gain tax free each year, no payment but you should file a return

Bob24 wrote: »

But to be fair, another side of the coin is that some institutions can’t touch assets which have too small a market cap due to regulation or their own internal rules. So it is very possible that some fund managers have been willing to buy for some time but are forced to wait for the price to increase before BTC is large enough to fit their organisation’s investment framework.

You're absolutely right. Taking Ray Dalio's hedge fund as a case in point, Dalio had written off BTC but he did say in recent weeks that he may have misunderstood it and was prepared to have another look. However, even if he wanted to, his hedgefund is probably too big to enter the market yet - he/it will have to wait until btc reaches a certain market cap.

Bob24 wrote: »

Of course it doesn’t mean anyone should make-up figures as they can do audits (and while I doubt the have feeds from crypto-exchanges, I am pretty sure they have a lot of information from banks in terms of any large incoming transfers into people’s accounts).

People should plan carefully. The top crypto exchanges are professional and compliant. They will dish up data to revenue on request. Governments and public authorities are incredibly inefficient but revenue have all the time in the world - 6 years worth of time in this case (they can go back 6 years). They will do a crypto related audit at some stage. Anyone here should be cognizant of that in their approach to paying their dues.

baalad wrote: »

How does revenue know / calculate what iam putting in and what iam getting out as actual profit??

They don’t know the details of all your transactions. You need to self calculate your gains and pay the amount accordingly (yes, it is a pain :-/).

Of course it doesn’t mean anyone should make-up figures as they can do audits (and while I doubt the have feeds from crypto-exchanges, I am pretty sure they have a lot of information from banks in terms of any large incoming transfers into people’s accounts).

Dohnjoe

Glad to see dogecoin going a bit mental.

Gooey Looey

baalad wrote: »

How does CPT work though?

Lets say iam trading and one week iam up money and withdraw a few quid. Another week i do the same. Maybe the following week i make a loss etc

How does revenue know / calculate what iam putting in and what iam getting out as actual profit??

I have no idea how it works so just looking to get a grasp on that!

It seems exiting is the most stressful part of investing from what i can see. If your not careful you can lose a huge chunk of your profit between exchanging your crypto and then CGT etc

I literally thought it was as simply as selling your crypto back to the exchange for euros and they transfer it straight into your bank account lol

Revenue expect you to self calculate it and pay whatever you think you owe!

baalad

cnocbui wrote: »

I believe converting to stable coin is a CGT event, so factor in that juicy 33% of any profits above your tax free threshold you should be withdrwing as fiat to pay to Revenue.

How does CPT work though?

Lets say iam trading and one week iam up money and withdraw a few quid. Another week i do the same. Maybe the following week i make a loss etc

How does revenue know / calculate what iam putting in and what iam getting out as actual profit??

I have no idea how it works so just looking to get a grasp on that!

It seems exiting is the most stressful part of investing from what i can see. If your not careful you can lose a huge chunk of your profit between exchanging your crypto and then CGT etc

I literally thought it was as simply as selling your crypto back to the exchange for euros and they transfer it straight into your bank account lol

Bob24 wrote: »

Yes, retail is playing a role but I also think institutions are on the driver’s seat.

And agreed, IMO it would be a mistake to think that because it is happening on the weekend it means it is retail action. Institutions have sophisticated purchase plans including algorithmic purchases and people monitoring the market on weeks.

Spot on, look at MicroSrategy, Michael Saylor said they set up their buys to purchase tiny amounts every few seconds for days or weeks on end, and that would've been 24/7 - Saylor has publicly told Elon Musk to get in touch with him - and apparently Musk did - so I'd be certain other CEOs or companies would be getting in touch with him for suggestions and advice, as Michael would be more than willing to offer same as he stands to benefit so much from doing so

makeorbrake wrote: »

Have paypal now opened up their crypto offering to the rest of the world (beyond the US) or has that yet to happen?

I actually forgot it wasn't globally available yet, Jesus, if it's scheduled for the end of Q1 then that'll be another decent wall of money ready to pour into the market

We're at $600bn marketcap at the moment, so even though $30k+ seems mad to some people, I think once it hits a $1tn marketcap it'll be another turning point

LedgerSuck wrote: »

Why are people like this lol. Nothing has changed with BTC before and after $3-4k

So true :-)

But to be fair, another side of the coin is that some institutions can’t touch assets which have too small a market cap due to regulation or their own internal rules. So it is very possible that some fund managers have been willing to buy for some time but are forced to wait for the price to increase before BTC is large enough to fit their organisation’s investment framework.

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Seen this at 20k, people who had no interest suddenly were looking for a piece of the pie. I'd count me in that group, no interest at 3k, suddenly interested at 32k.
Not good strategy. .. or is it. Can't see me buying at this price.

Why are people like this lol. Nothing has changed with BTC before and after $3-4k

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Gooey Looey wrote: »

Cel broke $6

For those who are holding it, CEL truly has been the gift which keeps on giving. Exactly a year ago it was 14 cents!

Every time I see it reaching a milestone I wonder if a pullback is coming ... but it pretty much never happens.

BrandonBay86

I’m only saying retail as it’s the weekend, and other than algos I’d be surprised to see any 500b+ mkt cap companies buying a piece of the pie today.

Any dips should get bought up fast.

makeorbrake wrote: »

Have paypal now opened up their crypto offering to the rest of the world (beyond the US) or has that yet to happen?

Not yet. I believe they have given a rather vague estimate that international rollout will happen in the first half of 2021 (not sure if it means some countries or all countries either).

Gooey Looey

Cel broke $6

makeorbrake wrote: »

Hmm...I've been thinking about that. I don't think much of this has been retail driven but then there has to be a certain level of retail coming in to the party. I don't think there's as many people expressing fomo as there was in 2017.

The other thought was ...well it's Saturday - but I think this market is well on its way toward the professional...so I guess these guys are working the 24/7 market that is bitcoin - 24/7. That or else its not institution led right now and it's a shoal of crypto whales...:eek:

Yes, retail is playing a role but I also think institutions are on the driver’s seat.

And agreed, IMO it would be a mistake to think that because it is happening on the weekend it means it is retail action. Institutions have sophisticated purchase plans including algorithmic purchases and people monitoring the market on weekends.

Have paypal now opened up their crypto offering to the rest of the world (beyond the US) or has that yet to happen?

BorneTobyWilde

Seen this at 20k, people who had no interest suddenly were looking for a piece of the pie. I'd count me in that group, no interest at 3k, suddenly interested at 32k.
Not good strategy. .. or is it. Can't see me buying at this price.