General Premier League Thread 2020-21 - Mod Notes in 1st post. [Updated 17/12/20]

~Rebel~ · 27-12-2020 12:58AM

TheadoreT wrote: »

I think fans hit peak cringeworthy when they start to assume the role of downplaying their sides obvious chances. I'm unsure whether it's just ultra disingenuous behaviour or they're a bit delusional thinking that not getting ahead of themselves has an influence like they're a manager saying let's take it a game at a time but either way it's baffling to read.

They're obviously favourites, but saying it's theirs by default is silly.

It's only 2 weeks since Spurs were top of the league, and Liverpool's away form still currently reads - Played 7, Won 2. This year will be nothing as procession-like as last year because of form like that.

I think they will win it, but equally I wouldn't be betting my house on it, and I also wouldn't be betting against someone else putting up enough of a decent run to keep things interesting - no-one is talking about pulling out 20 wins in a row here, just keeping a solid 2+ ppg.

And one could argue it's easier for someone like Utd to fix their home form than for Liverpool to fix their away form.

~Rebel~ · 27-12-2020 01:10AM

Brendan Flowers wrote: »

My take on it is that some fans know their team are absolute favourites to win the title. But they talk down the teams chances so that when the title is won, they can claim it was a win against all odds, one of the greatest achievements of all time, stuff of legends, etc. Which is bizarre because whether you're red hot favourites or the next Leicester City, winning the title is an fantastic achievement anyways.

Or, instead of some weird devious plot to claim underdog status, people - not just football fans - tend to try to avoid counting their chickens before they're hatched. People guard their emotions and their hopes because they don't want to leave themselves too open to disappointment. It's fairly normal, and fairly human...

27-12-2020 07:53AM

~Rebel~ wrote: »

Or, instead of some weird devious plot to claim underdog status, people - not just football fans - tend to try to avoid counting their chickens before they're hatched. People guard their emotions and their hopes because they don't want to leave themselves too open to disappointment. It's fairly normal, and fairly human...

Which is a good explanation of why someone downplays chances when analysing matters themselves, or amongst friends.

But guarding emotions on an anonymous forum?

Another possible explanation is that it's a bit of a wind up, something that perhaps starts as an opinion and then becomes a mantra, like "living rent free". It just needs someone to parse it down into a catchy phrase.

27-12-2020 08:26AM

2 points ahead. Only 72 to play for.

As good as over...

Potential Underachiever · 27-12-2020 08:29AM

You can't really win, you're either playing the role of an insincere underdog or you're accused of giving it the big 'un if you were telling all and sundry how your team is the best and going to walk the league.

27-12-2020 08:36AM

Potential Underachiever wrote: »

You can't really win, you're either playing the role of an insincere underdog or you're accused of giving it the big 'un if you were telling all and sundry how your team is the best and going to walk the league.

There is surely a big space for analysis between "we're underdogs" and "we'll walk it"...

Potential Underachiever · 27-12-2020 08:44AM

Deleted User wrote: »

There is surely a big space for analysis between "we're underdogs" and "we'll walk it"...

There is indeed, but you'll still be pigeon holed by some posters on here.

~Rebel~ · 27-12-2020 09:39AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

There is surely a big space for analysis between "we're underdogs" and "we'll walk it"...

And I’d say that’s the space most Liverpool fans occupy. Currently pleasantly surprised that even with a lot of injuries - particularly a season ending one to the lad who most would probably recognise as the key addition that turned Liverpool into serious challengers - Liverpool are probably still just about the best team in the league.

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Which is a good explanation of why someone downplays chances when analysing matters themselves, or amongst friends.

But guarding emotions on an anonymous forum?

Another possible explanation is that it's a bit of a wind up, something that perhaps starts as an opinion and then becomes a mantra, like "living rent free". It just needs someone to parse it down into a catchy phrase.

First of all it’s not really some throwaway anonymous thing when most of us have been posting here consistently for years.

But also, what’s anonymity got to do with anything? What I’m talking about isn’t protecting yourself against some fella saying ‘I told ya so’, but the very normal thing of keeping your hopes and expectations in check.

I also just don’t get your point that the conclusion you personally reach would for some reason not be what you say to strangers? Why would someone guard their expectations internally but be full of bluster or some weird gaslighting to strangers? That sounds like you expect trolling to be the default in dealing with strangers?

TheadoreT · 27-12-2020 10:08AM

~Rebel~ wrote: »

And I’d say that’s the space most Liverpool fans occupy. Currently pleasantly surprised that even with a lot of injuries - particularly a season ending one to the lad who most would probably recognise as the key addition that turned Liverpool into serious challengers - Liverpool are probably still just about the best team in the league.

First of all it’s not really some throwaway anonymous thing when most of us have been posting here consistently for years.

But also, what’s anonymity got to do with anything? What I’m talking about isn’t protecting yourself against some fella saying ‘I told ya so’, but the very normal thing of keeping your hopes and expectations in check.

I also just don’t get your point that the conclusion you personally reach would for some reason not be what you say to strangers? Why would someone guard their expectations internally but be full of bluster or some weird gaslighting to strangers? That sounds like you expect trolling to be the default in dealing with strangers?

But you're focusing way too much on Liverpool. 3rd place last season had 66 points. The lowest tally for 3rd since the 97/98 season when Liverpool got 65 points behind United and Arsenal. This sort of class gap doesn't get breached over a season. It's takes something dramatic like when Chelsea broke United/arsenal's dominance back then in 04 after unprecedented investment.

Maybe the complete outlier that was Leicester forged some sort of anything can happen mentality in fans minds and adds some often needed tension in proceedings that may be lacking. But the league has been largely ultra predictable and monumental improvement doesn't tend to happen overnight.

~Rebel~ · 27-12-2020 10:46AM

TheadoreT wrote: »

But you're focusing way too much on Liverpool. 3rd place last season had 66 points. The lowest tally for 3rd since the 97/98 season when Liverpool got 65 points behind United and Arsenal. This sort of class gap doesn't get breached over a season. It's takes something dramatic like when Chelsea broke United/arsenal's dominance back then in 04 after unprecedented investment.

Maybe the complete outlier that was Leicester forged some sort of anything can happen mentality in fans minds and adds some often needed tension in proceedings that may be lacking. But the league has been largely ultra predictable and monumental improvement doesn't tend to happen overnight.

Why are ya jumping to 3rd? 2nd got 81 points... that’s probably enough for a serious title challenge this year. It’s gonna be won with a far more attainable number than the past 3 years. Again no one is saying everyone is gonna challenge, just that a fair few teams are in an alright position to. We can expect the top teams to get less points, and the next few to get more - that 66 3rd last year likely won’t be repeated, the previous year 5 teams broke 70 points. With Chelsea’s much improved squad, Utds hugely impressive away form, and Mourinhos Spurs wildcard, things are interesting.

Maybe they will challenge, maybe they won’t, but I’ve no idea why someone would be so eager to just write off the league after 14 games, especially while the leader has such patchy away form.

TheadoreT · 27-12-2020 11:08AM

~Rebel~ wrote: »

Why are ya jumping to 3rd? 2nd got 81 points... that’s probably enough for a serious title challenge this year. It’s gonna be won with a far more attainable number than the past 3 years. Again no one is saying everyone is gonna challenge, just that a fair few teams are in an alright position to. We can expect the top teams to get less points, and the next few to get more - that 66 3rd last year likely won’t be repeated, the previous year 5 teams broke 70 points. With Chelsea’s much improved squad, Utds hugely impressive away form, and Mourinhos Spurs wildcard, things are interesting.

Maybe they will challenge, maybe they won’t, but I’ve no idea why someone would be so eager to just write off the league after 14 games, especially while the leader has such patchy away form.

We've already discussed City, I wouldn't use the word regressing with them as they've more financial muscle than anyone to bounce back but right now the sum of their parts is pretty underwhelming. Aside from goalkeeper there isn't one area of that side you'd be happy with right now.

You can keep using a tiny sample of away games to downplay the inevitable but its lacking much bigger picture logic. Find it hard to comprehend how anyone can watch/access the relative abilities of these sides in recent seasons and in this one and not come to the same conclusion.

~Rebel~ · 27-12-2020 11:12AM

TheadoreT wrote: »

We've already discussed City, I wouldn't use the word regressing with them as they've more financial muscle than anyone to bounce back but right now the sum of their parts is pretty underwhelming. Aside from goalkeeper there isn't one area of that side you'd be happy with right now.

You can keep using a tiny sample of away games to downplay the inevitable but its lacking much bigger picture logic. Find it hard to comprehend how anyone can watch/access the relative abilities of these sides in recent seasons and in this one and not come to the same conclusion.

Because it’s football! That’s literally the point of watching football, that it throws up interesting events.

You find it hard to comprehend that a team can be favourites without the whole thing being a foregone conclusion with 24 matches to go?

Shanotheslayer · 27-12-2020 11:25AM

Until Liverpool start dropping points at home I can't see them not winning the league

3 draws in the last 3 season(including this current one). So you can probably expect them to get about 53 points out of a total 57 from home.

Last year away they got 44 points
The year before that they also got 44 points

This year they're currently looking at 25 points assuming the numbers stay the same. I highly doubt this team only manage to get 25 points away from home. I would be thinking around the 30-35 mark given what they capable of and that also is a decrease in points the last few years.

So I've them at an expected points of 83-87 points which I can't see anyone beating. Which is about an average PL title win

TheadoreT · 27-12-2020 11:39AM

~Rebel~ wrote: »

Because it’s football! That’s literally the point of watching football, that it throws up interesting events.

You find it hard to comprehend that a team can be favourites without the whole thing being a foregone conclusion with 24 matches to go?

My whole point is it seldom throws up "interesting events", and fans blow the extremely rare occasion it does happen out of proportion to add excitement where there is none. Most leagues are entirely predictable. You'd be lucky if one of the big 5 leagues throws up a close finish in any given season.

My enjoyment comes from watching beautiful football rather than needing to create teneous drama/ illogical scenarios to keep my interest.

8-10 · 27-12-2020 11:57AM

TheadoreT wrote: »

My enjoyment comes from watching beautiful football rather than needing to create teneous drama/ illogical scenarios to keep my interest.

A team that isn't Liverpool winning the league is not an illogical scenario, that's the point that you keep ignoring over and over to suit your argument that it's a 'default' title.

Liverpool are favorites but for me there's more teams in the mix this year than last, coupled with Liverpool unlikely to even match their runner up form from 2 seasons ago due to injuries and fatigue from the very high standards over the past 2 years.

We don't look like a 97 or 99pt team this year, and many other top teams have improved, mainly Chelsea, United and Spurs.

And the point I made, which isn't unique to fans you hear this in the media a lot, is that it's hard to win back to back titles, arguably harder to win the 2nd.

For you it's a default title and we don't even need to watch the rest of the season to know who wins but I fully disagree. I think Chelsea are the dark horse this year

A team winning a league title by default before half the games have been played is an illogical scenario

TheadoreT · 27-12-2020 12:06PM

The needs of your typical premier League fan is akin to a womans for sex, they need a narrative to turn them on, however fanciful, and the visuals don't matter as much to them. It's why sky sports hype machine is so successful, they're the best lovers as they provide all the foreplay, "7 team title challenge" - oooh I love it when you talk dirty Ed Chamberlain.... "Super Sunday" - more more..... "Relegation 6 pointer" - I'm almost there don't stop..... " Agueroooooooooooooooooooo"

Shanotheslayer · 27-12-2020 12:17PM

TheadoreT wrote: »

The needs of your typical premier League fan is akin to a womans for sex, they need a narrative to turn them on, however fanciful, and the visuals don't matter as much to them. It's why sky sports hype machine is so successful, they're the best lovers as they provide all the foreplay, "7 team title challenge" - oooh I love it when you talk dirty Ed Chamberlain.... "Super Sunday" - more more..... "Relegation 6 pointer" - I'm almost there don't stop..... " Agueroooooooooooooooooooo"

Dafuq did I just read

ctrl-alt-delete · 27-12-2020 12:18PM

Ridiculous to rule that goal out there.

CSF · 27-12-2020 12:20PM

That is right up there with the most cowardly refereeing I've ever seen.

Unearthly · 27-12-2020 12:20PM

Terrible decision

Shanotheslayer · 27-12-2020 12:20PM

Awful decision

eigrod · 27-12-2020 12:22PM

Yet again, English officials making an absolute balls of VAR. They haven’t a clue.

CSF · 27-12-2020 12:24PM

eigrod wrote: »

Yet again, English officials making an absolute balls of VAR. They haven’t a clue.

It was the on field ref who screwed it up aswell I think, by blowing the whistle before the ball goes in.

That was the kind of refereeing that should see a lad in League 2 for a few months. Undefendably bad.

Abel Ruiz · 27-12-2020 12:31PM

ctrl-alt-delete wrote: »

Ridiculous to rule that goal out there.

But the whistle went before the ball was in the net.
The ref thought it is was foul and blew straight away.
I think that should have been a peno.

Abel Ruiz · 27-12-2020 12:34PM

TheadoreT wrote: »

The needs of your typical premier League fan is akin to a womans for sex, they need a narrative to turn them on, however fanciful, and the visuals don't matter as much to them. It's why sky sports hype machine is so successful, they're the best lovers as they provide all the foreplay, "7 team title challenge" - oooh I love it when you talk dirty Ed Chamberlain.... "Super Sunday" - more more..... "Relegation 6 pointer" - I'm almost there don't stop..... " Agueroooooooooooooooooooo"

Are you still drunk from yesterday???
Ed chamberlain is gone over to the horse racing on itv!!!!!!

ctrl-alt-delete · 27-12-2020 12:35PM

Abel Ruiz wrote: »

But the whistle went before the ball was in the net.
The ref thought it is was foul and blew straight away.
I think that should have been a peno.

Well you know what I mean, if he had have gotten the initial decision right and let play go.

~Rebel~ · 27-12-2020 01:24PM

Shanotheslayer wrote: »

Until Liverpool start dropping points at home I can't see them not winning the league

3 draws in the last 3 season(including this current one). So you can probably expect them to get about 53 points out of a total 57 from home.

Last year away they got 44 points
The year before that they also got 44 points

This year they're currently looking at 25 points assuming the numbers stay the same. I highly doubt this team only manage to get 25 points away from home. I would be thinking around the 30-35 mark given what they capable of and that also is a decrease in points the last few years.

So I've them at an expected points of 83-87 points which I can't see anyone beating. Which is about an average PL title win

Yup, I’d pretty much agree with all that.

Still, you have to actually go out and win all those matches every week, which is not always as easy as it looks on paper as games like Villa, Fulham, and Brighton show.

I reserve the right to not go celebrating another league win for a few months yet

Shanotheslayer · 27-12-2020 01:32PM

~Rebel~ wrote: »

Yup, I’d pretty much agree with all that.

Still, you have to actually go out and win all those matches every week, which is not always as easy as it looks on paper as games like Villa, Fulham, and Brighton show.

I reserve the right to not go celebrating another league win for a few months yet

Absolutely, and I think it's foolish if anybody think's the league is wrapped up, but I do think come the end of it there won't be a shock. If anything there could be a shock to the top 4 with so many teams battling it out.

I think Everton are capable of a draw against City so no doubt other teams pick up points etc. Think the top 4 battle will be very back and forward.

4 points seperating 2nd and 9th with a few teams with games in hand etc.

kowloonkev · 27-12-2020 01:43PM

Pitch at Elland Road doesn't look the best.

yourdeadwright · 27-12-2020 05:56PM

Matip injured could be a few weeks at least
Liverpool down to a 19 year old and a CB as there options

General Premier League Thread 2020-21 - Mod Notes in 1st post. [Updated 17/12/20]

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