The Vaccine

Timberrrrrrrr · 22-12-2020 07:55PM

Quiner wrote: »

You know what I mean. I don't mean literally every second of the day. I mean they're required everywhere at all times.

But they're not!

Edgarfrndly · 22-12-2020 07:56PM

Quiner wrote: »

Spain, Italy, France, the Philippines, the US, among others. Peru and the Philippines also had extremely harsh and lengthy lockdowns. Masks have done nothing, or very little, to stop the huge increases in deaths and cases.

Ok but that's literally false. There have been numerous studies done on mask usage, and all point to them being effective for reducing infections.

There was a study in the US on states with mask mandates, which saw a reduction in new infections:

Mandating face mask use in public is associated with a decline in the daily COVID-19 growth rate by 0.9, 1.1, 1.4, 1.7, and 2.0 percentage points in 1–5, 6–10, 11–15, 16–20, and 21 or more days after state face mask orders were signed, respectively. Estimates suggest that as a result of the implementation of these mandates, more than 200,000 COVID-19 cases were averted by May 22, 2020. The findings suggest that requiring face mask use in public could help in mitigating the spread of COVID-19.

Source: https://www.healthaffairs.org/doi/10.1377/hlthaff.2020.00818

Masks do not eliminate the virus, they simply reduce the risk of spreading it. This is an exercise of risk reduction, as risk elimination is simply impossible.

Until we have mass vaccination rolled out, the easiest thing anything can do to reduce the risk of spreading covid is to wear a mask in public.

Quiner · 22-12-2020 07:59PM

runawaybishop wrote: »

Then why say 24/7, which has a very specific meaning.

They are not required all the times, not even close. They are required when interacting with others.

Okay, I won't say 24/7 so, even though I thought it'd be understood that by 24/7 I meant everywhere apart from in bed and at home. But I won't say 24/7 to avoid confusion.

In Spain they are required everywhere, I was there recently. In taxis, hotel lobbies, on the street, shops, restaurants, you name it. I didn't imagine it.

aido79 · 22-12-2020 07:59PM

Quiner wrote: »

Spain, Italy, France, the Philippines, the US, among others. Peru and the Philippines also had extremely harsh and lengthy lockdowns. Masks have done nothing, or very little, to stop the huge increases in deaths and cases.

It hasn't really being explained to me. A poster gave an opinion as to why they believed it was changed. We're supposed to believe that herd immunity was fine until this year.

But I could answer the question by saying that they're still overrun with all those measures. See the countries I mentioned.

Where is the proof that the situation wouldn't be much worse if masks hadn't have been worn in the countries you have mentioned? Even a child knows to cover their mouth when they cough or sneeze to stop germs spreading so why do you not believe masks help limit the spread of an airborne virus?

Like most things that are explained to you, you either completely ignore it or have your own take on it.
What exactly is your problem with the change of definition?

Timberrrrrrrr · 22-12-2020 08:01PM

Quiner wrote: »

Okay, I won't say 24/7 so, even though I thought it'd be understood that by 24/7 I meant everywhere apart from in bed and at home. But I won't say 24/7 to avoid confusion.

In Spain they are required everywhere, I was there recently. In taxis, hotel lobbies, on the street, shops, restaurants, you name it. I didn't imagine it.

And why did they bring this into effect? Because idiots were not wearing them.at the height of the pandemic.

Quiner · 22-12-2020 08:01PM

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

But they're not!

Okay, in all public areas so, and in private businesses. We're splitting hairs here. In Spain they are required in public, in shops, restaurants, hotels, you name it. Same with the other countries I mentioned.

Quiner · 22-12-2020 08:02PM

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

And why did they bring this into effect? Because idiots were not wearing them.at the height of the pandemic.

They've been mandatory everywhere in Spain since May, which was the height of the pandemic. And they've made no difference.

Timberrrrrrrr · 22-12-2020 08:02PM

Quiner wrote: »

Okay, in all public areas so, and in private businesses. We're splitting hairs here. In Spain they are required in public, in shops, restaurants, hotels, you name it. Same with the other countries I mentioned.

And? It protects the people that work there. Do you think you should be allowed to enter a shop without a mask?

Quiner · 22-12-2020 08:03PM

Dohnjoe wrote: »

The broken logic here is that people wear masks but we still have high cases of Covid in certain areas ergo masks "don't work". Likewise we have social distancing everywhere, but there are still high cases of Covid, ergo that "doesn't work", and so on. It's a level of ignorance or pedantry that can be difficult to debate with.

Okay, so it hasn't actually worked based on the numbers, but has actually worked somehow. I don't follow.

Is it true to say that the case and death numbers in the likes of Spain, Italy, the US, and France is huge?

runawaybishop · 22-12-2020 08:04PM

Quiner wrote: »

They've been mandatory everywhere in Spain since May, which was the height of the pandemic. And they've made no difference.

They are required when interacting with others. This is reasonable. They are not require otherwise, which isn't what you claimed. Glad we cleared that up.

All the actual evidence from scientists show that masks help.

Your feelings to the contrary don't change this. Feelings don't trump evidence and science.

Edit: it may be fairer to say that you believe masks do not make an appreciable difference? Whilst the science says otherwise if people are completely flouting advice then I don't know what other conclusion you expect except rapid spread.

silliussoddius · 22-12-2020 08:04PM

Quiner wrote: »

They've been mandatory everywhere in Spain since May, which was the height of the pandemic. And they've made no difference.

Proof please.

Quiner · 22-12-2020 08:05PM

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

And? It protects the people that work there. Do you think you should be allowed to enter a shop without a mask?

But it's being claimed that they are essential and make a huge difference. The real world evidence says otherwise. I hate the things, but if people want to wear them then that's their right. But to claim they're incredibly effective when the real world evidence of those countries (Spain, Italy, France, Peru, and the US in particular) suggests otherwise doesn't make sense.

Quiner · 22-12-2020 08:06PM

silliussoddius wrote: »

Proof please.

https://www.garda.com/crisis24/news-alerts/343966/spain-face-masks-compulsory-in-public-spaces-from-may-21-update-24

Timberrrrrrrr · 22-12-2020 08:07PM

Quiner wrote: »

But it's being claimed that they are essential and make a huge difference. The real world evidence says otherwise. I hate the things, but if people want to wear them then that's their right. But to claim they're incredibly effective when the real world evidence of those countries (Spain, Italy, France, Peru, and the US in particular) suggests otherwise doesn't make sense.

They are and it does.

runawaybishop · 22-12-2020 08:09PM

Quiner wrote: »

But it's being claimed that they are essential and make a huge difference. The real world evidence says otherwise. I hate the things, but if people want to wear them then that's their right. But to claim they're incredibly effective when the real world evidence of those countries (Spain, Italy, France, Peru, and the US in particular) suggests otherwise doesn't make sense.

That's not real world evidence. It's anecdotal at best, misleading propaganda at worst.

Masks, if used correctly are quite effective. The evidence in those countries you mentioned is that mask uptake is low, or social distancing isn't being adhered to, or personal hygiene is lacking.

Quiner · 22-12-2020 08:10PM

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

They are and it does.

All I'm saying is that the evidence of those countries I mentioned suggests otherwise. Masks are required almost everywhere in the US (in most states) and they still have huge death and infection numbers.

ohnonotgmail · 22-12-2020 08:10PM

runawaybishop wrote: »

That's not real world evidence. It's anecdotal at best, misleading propaganda at worst.

Masks, if used correctly are quite effective. The evidence in those countries you mentioned is that mask uptake is low, or social distancing isn't being adhered to, or personal hygiene is lacking.

or too many people who cant figure out that they need to go over your nose AND mouth. I seen a woman at the weekend in tesco wear one as a chin warmer.

Timberrrrrrrr · 22-12-2020 08:12PM

Quiner wrote: »

All I'm saying is that the evidence of those countries I mentioned suggests otherwise. Masks are required almost everywhere in the US (in most states) and they still have huge death and infection numbers.

From.your own link RE Spain

masks will be required on public streets, open spaces, and closed public spaces where keeping a 2 m (6.5 ft) interpersonal distance may not be possible.

So no, not everywhere.

Quiner · 22-12-2020 08:13PM

runawaybishop wrote: »

That's not real world evidence. It's anecdotal at best, misleading propaganda at worst.

Masks, if used correctly are quite effective. The evidence in those countries you mentioned is that mask uptake is low, or social distancing isn't being adhered to, or personal hygiene is lacking.

It isn't low. I was in Madrid a few weeks ago and every single person there wore a mask. And they're extremely strict on mask wearing over there.

In the US, 85% of people say they wear masks (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/27/world/most-americans-have-been-wearing-masks-since-spring-the-cdc-says.html)

In the Philippines, where I have been on several occasions and where I have friends, everyone wears masks.

Quiner · 22-12-2020 08:14PM

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

From.your own link RE Spain

So no, not everywhere.

But that was in May. They're required everywhere now (although it was more or less everywhere back in May). I was there. I saw it with my own eyes.

Dohnjoe · 22-12-2020 08:15PM

Quiner wrote: »

Okay, so it hasn't actually worked based on the numbers, but has actually worked somehow. I don't follow.

Masks, if worn, reduce the spread of the virus
Social distancing, if followed, reduces the spread of the virus
Lockdown measures, if adhered to, reduce the spread of the virus

Those are all facts. Keyword is: reduce. It doesn't magically stop the virus from spreading. A country with all of these measures may still have a high number of cases - but if these measures weren't in place at all, then the cases would be astronomically higher.

It's very easy to understand this. The first worldwide lockdown caused cases, hospitalizations and deaths to drop significantly. When those measures were relaxed, and people became more complacent, then cases, hospitalisations and deaths start to increase again (second wave).

You seem to be stuck on a hamster wheel of lots of cases = measures don't work at all, which is really awful logic.

runawaybishop · 22-12-2020 08:16PM

Quiner wrote: »

It isn't low. I was in Madrid a few weeks ago and every single person there wore a mask. And they're extremely strict on mask wearing over there.

In the US, 85% of people say they wear masks (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/27/world/most-americans-have-been-wearing-masks-since-spring-the-cdc-says.html)

In the Philippines, where I have been on several occasions and where I have friends, everyone wears masks.

Stop travelling so much in a pandemic

You aren't posting evidence. You are posting stories. While i do love a good story I would prefer science, thanks.

Edit: I should have said low or incorrect mask uptake/usage.

aido79 · 22-12-2020 08:22PM

Quiner wrote: »

All I'm saying is that the evidence of those countries I mentioned suggests otherwise. Masks are required almost everywhere in the US (in most states) and they still have huge death and infection numbers.

You mentioned in a post earlier that social distancing and sheltering the elderly could be used to control the spread of covid19. Can you think of any other way to limit the spread of covid19 where social distancing isn't possible such as in a crowded place or indoors in a shop for example?

Quiner · 22-12-2020 08:24PM

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Masks, if worn, reduce the spread of the virus
Social distancing, if followed, reduces the spread of the virus
Lockdown measures, if adhered to, reduce the spread of the virus

Those are all facts. Keyword is: reduce. It doesn't magically stop the virus from spreading. A country with all of these measures may still have a high number of cases - but if these measures weren't in place at all, then the cases would be astronomically higher.

It's very easy to understand this. The first worldwide lockdown caused cases, hospitalizations and deaths to drop significantly. When those measures were relaxed, and people became more complacent, then cases, hospitalisations and deaths start to increase again (second wave).

You seem to be stuck on a hamster wheel of lots of cases = measures don't work at all, which is really awful logic.

What's the evidence for that claim you make about the cases being astronomically higher? Compare the Nordic countries, where there are no masks, with Spain, France, Italy, Peru, the Philippines and the US. Are case numbers higher in the Nordic countries or in the countries I listed?

Peter Hitchens claims that there is no evidence that lockdowns saved a single life.

No, that's true. I am saying that the already astronomically high numbers in those countries suggest the measures are achieving nothing.

Fighting Tao · 22-12-2020 08:24PM

Quiner wrote: »

You're right. Twitter and Facebook aren't good sources, but the graphs often, if not always, look believable and they keep claiming to be quoting from official sources.

It's hard to know what to believe.

This is a cop out. “Look believable”. I don’t think you could be that stupid to think ‘maybe I should look at the original source’ rather than believing some random conspiracy theorist Twitter and Facebook accounts.

runawaybishop · 22-12-2020 08:25PM

Quiner wrote: »

What's the evidence for that claim you make about the cases being astronomically higher? Compare the Nordic countries, where there are no masks, with Spain, France, Italy, Peru, the Philippines and the US. Are case numbers higher in the Nordic countries or in the countries I listed?

Peter Hitchens claims that there is no evidence that lockdowns saved a single life.

No, that's true. I am saying that the already astronomically high numbers in those countries suggest the measures are achieving nothing.

Nordic countries are superb at social distancing, (although Sweden is fooked now) - you'd need to pay a Norwegian to stand next to someone almost. Also, and I am unsurprised you pretend to not know this, all the Nordic countries rowed back in mask usage and it is now required in certain circumstances.

Fighting Tao · 22-12-2020 08:26PM

aido79 wrote: »

You mentioned in a post earlier that social distancing and sheltering the elderly could be used to control the spread of covid19. Can you think of any other way to limit the spread of covid19 where social distancing isn't possible such as in a crowded place or indoors in a shop for example?

If only medical personnel identified that there was need for an effective additional method to avoid catching viruses like masks.

Quiner · 22-12-2020 08:50PM

runawaybishop wrote: »

Nordic countries are superb at social distancing, (although Sweden is fooked now) - you'd need to pay a Norwegian to stand next to someone almost. Also, and I am unsurprised you pretend to not know this, all the Nordic countries rowed back in mask usage and it is now required in certain circumstances.

True. So wouldn't it be better to focus on the importance of social distancing instead of ineffective masks?

Not to the extent that they are required in other countries? And mostly recommended instead of mandated.

Quiner · 22-12-2020 08:52PM

Fighting Tao wrote: »

If only medical personnel identified that there was need for an effective additional method to avoid catching viruses like masks.

Can you explain the specific cases of Spain, Italy, France, the Philippines, Peru and the US where, as I keep saying, they are required everywhere. You claim it is an effective method. Then why, with masks everywhere, are the cases and deaths so high in those countries?

Quiner · 22-12-2020 08:54PM

Fighting Tao wrote: »

This is a cop out. “Look believable”. I don’t think you could be that stupid to think ‘maybe I should look at the original source’ rather than believing some random conspiracy theorist Twitter and Facebook accounts.

But often it is, or it appears to be, the original source. Can graphs really be made up? Numbers plucked out of thin air?

The Vaccine

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