Leaking Pump Valve

heffo500 · 19-12-2020 10:04PM #1

Hi

The 1 inch ball pump valve either side of my central heating valve are leaking after I closed them to change a pump.

My new grundfos pump doesn't sound right either.

Would the leaking valves be letting air in?

Where would I get replacements tomorrow?

Thanks

DublinDilbert · 19-12-2020 10:12PM

heffo500 wrote: »

Hi

The 1 inch ball pump valve either side of my central heating valve are leaking after I closed them to change a pump.

My new grundfos pump doesn't sound right either.

Would the leaking valves be letting air in?

Where would I get replacements tomorrow?

Thanks

Probably air in the pump, close the valve on one side and crack the 52mm nut on that side to fill the pump and let the air out. You might be able to get the butterfly valves into a position which they won't leak, but they are notorious for it.

If your getting valves, don't go for the butterfly type go for the gate valve design.

Try screw fix if you need them tomorrow, b&q should have some too...

heffo500 · 19-12-2020 11:22PM

DublinDilbert wrote: »

Probably air in the pump, close the valve on one side and crack the 52mm nut on that side to fill the pump and let the air out. You might be able to get the butterfly valves into a position which they won't leak, but they are notorious for it.

If your getting valves, don't go for the butterfly type go for the gate valve design.

Try screw fix if you need them tomorrow, b&q should have some too...

Thankfully they have stopped leaking. I wonder did I let air into the system as one of the zones isn't heating now.

Will it clear in time?

John.G · 19-12-2020 11:31PM

Is the zone not heating if running on its own or is it not heating when all zones are on?, if the latter then possibly the new pump on the wrong setting, what pump and model have you installed and what mode/setting is it on?, also what was the old pump and its setting?

heffo500 · 19-12-2020 11:43PM

John.G wrote: »

Is the zone not heating if running on its own or is it not heating when all zones are on?, if the latter then possibly the new pump on the wrong setting, what pump and model have you installed and what mode/setting is it on?, also what was the old pump and its setting?

It's not heating on its own.

This is the pump, I've installed the below:

GRUNDFOS UPS3 15-50/65 DOMESTIC HEATING CIRCULATOR 230V as the primary flow pump.

Grundfos Alpha1 L 25-65 130 Circ. Pump as the return pump on the zone not heating.

Both are on speed 2, same as the old pumps were.

John.G · 19-12-2020 11:54PM

So you have pumps on all zones as distinct from zone valves and you also have a primary circulating pump.?

heffo500 · 19-12-2020 11:57PM

John.G wrote: »

So you have pumps on all zones as distinct from zone valves and you also have a primary circulating pump.?

We have a primary circulating pump on the flow side and a pump on both zones which kick in when the corresponding motorised zone valve receives power.

The two pumps were added sometime ago to improve the response time as one pump was not sufficient due to the size of the system.

John.G · 20-12-2020 12:01AM

Is there a Alpha 1 L on the other zone as well?

heffo500 · 20-12-2020 12:03AM

John.G wrote: »

Is there a Alpha 1 L on the other zone as well?

The other pump is like an old pump set at speed 2. It's like a cheap version of a grundfos.

I'll take a picture of the system tomorrow.

heffo500 · 20-12-2020 12:03AM

Is there much difference between the two grundfos pumps I've put in. One I got from Screwfix this evening, the other from my local plumbing wholesalers.

John.G · 20-12-2020 12:07AM

OK thanks, speed 2 on the Alpha 1L starts at a very high head of 6.5M (same as speed 3) While it probably isn't the cause of your problem, speed 1 is @ a 4.5M head which IMO would be much closer to the original pump, a picture will also be good.

heffo500 · 20-12-2020 12:09AM

John.G wrote: »

OK thanks, speed 2 on the Alpha 1L starts at a very high head of 6.5M (same as speed 3) While it probably isn't the cause of your problem, speed 1 is @ a 4.5M head which IMO would be much closer to the original pump, a picture will also be good.

So I should set the alpha to speed 1 and leave the other at grundfos as speed 2?

heffo500 · 20-12-2020 12:10AM

How do the speeds on the pumps work? Do the slow speed push further or something like that?

John.G · 20-12-2020 12:21AM

Yes, suggest you set the Alpha 1L (zone pump) to speed 1 and leave the other at speed 2.
you are saying that the other zone with its old pump is working OK with the new primary UPS3??.
Will explain speeds later.

Also ensure that both valves on the zone pump are full open ie screw driver slot(s) vertical.

heffo500 · 20-12-2020 12:34AM

John.G wrote: »

Yes, suggest you set the Alpha 1L (zone pump) to speed 1 and leave the other at speed 2.
you are saying that the other zone with its old pump is working OK with the new primary UPS3??.
Will explain speeds later.

Also ensure that both valves on the zone pump are full open ie screw driver slot(s) vertical.

Yeah the other zone is working fine. There seem to be air at motorised valve of the zone not working as when I cracked the nut, nothing came out then cold water and now heat seems to be passing through the motorised valve of the zone that wasn't heating.

heffo500 · 20-12-2020 12:41AM

Heating https://imgur.com/a/L6Se6Ik

Here's some photos of the system. The valve on the far right on the 3/4 is the zone that isn't heating.

John.G · 20-12-2020 12:52AM

Can see that zone pumps are on the return, just to stick to the basics for the moment, just check that both valves on that zone pump are open and that the arrow on its pump body is pointing upwards.

heffo500 · 20-12-2020 12:54AM

John.G wrote: »

Can see that zone pumps are on the return, just to stick to the basics for the moment, just check that both valves on that zone pump are open and that the arrow on its pump body is pointing upwards.

Yeah I've checked that just there and the orientation is correct. I've also removed the motorised valve on the 3/4 inch and spray with some oil to make sure it's moving freely. The heat seems to be passing the valve now but the rads still aren't heating

John.G · 20-12-2020 01:05AM

So to recap, the UPS3 is pumping upwards on the flow?? from the boiler and the zone pumps are also pumping upwards but into the boiler return, even if the zone pump wasn't running you might expect some flow so maybe air or a problem with that zone valve, what is that grey (round) item directly under the new zone pump?.

heffo500 · 20-12-2020 01:08AM

John.G wrote: »

So to recap, the UPS3 is pumping upwards on the flow?? from the boiler and the zone pumps are also pumping upwards but into the boiler return, even if the zone pump wasn't running you might expect some flow so maybe air or a problem with that zone valve, what is that grey (round) item directly under the new zone pump?.

That's correct the main pump is the UPS3 and pointed away from the boiler.

The others are on the return and pointing towards the boiler.

The round thing is a magnaclean micro 2.

Will the air eventually find its way out?

John.G · 20-12-2020 01:16AM

Hopefully, yes, you have obviously bled rads etc, also these new smart circ pumps are a pain as there is no vent screw like before, I assume the zone valves are on the flow, it might help if you changed the ups 3 pump to speed 3 temporarily and keep venting the rads until you get circulation, can't think of anything else just now, heading for the bunk shortly.

heffo500 · 20-12-2020 01:18AM

Thanks so much for the help so far. I'll leave the heating on all night and see if it sorts it's self overnight.

I'll knock up the speed in the morning if it's still the same.

heffo500 · 20-12-2020 01:43AM

Slight update, loads of the rads had air in them so I've bled them and will see in the morning if there's more air to be bled

John.G · 20-12-2020 09:30AM

If you have a vented system with a small F&E tank in the attic then it is quite common to have air ingress or pump over via the vent especially on pump change out and different settings. If your system is like this then you might have to change both the primary and the zone pump settings.

A sealed system with expansion vessel and set to 1.5 bar will not have these problems.

What pump did the UPS3 replace? (might have asked this previously) and also if you can get any details of the present working zone pump,

What is the boiler output and how many rads?.

When you do eventually get rid of the air and if the unaffected zone is running OK with the UPS3 on setting 2 then it may only be a case of matching the alpha 1L to it although IMO speed 1 on the UPS3 should be perfectly adequate.

Your system is unusual as pumped zoning is normally installed in the flow from the boiler with no primary pump or zone valves but with a spring loaded NR valve on each zone pump to stop gravity circulation.

heffo500 · 20-12-2020 09:54AM

I left the heating on over night and still no heat and no air in the rads on that zone either.

I'll get the names of both pumps to see if I can find out the settings.

I'll turn up the power of the main pump to see if that helps as u suggested, will the air eventually come out of it?

Is there any value in having the other zone heating, would help with the circulation and move the air lock?

heffo500 · 20-12-2020 09:57AM

John.G wrote: »

If you have a vented system with a small F&E tank in the attic then it is quite common to have air ingress or pump over via the vent especially on pump change out and different settings. If your system is like this then you might have to change both the primary and the zone pump settings.

A sealed system with expansion vessel and set to 1.5 bar will not have these problems.

What pump did the UPS3 replace? (might have asked this previously) and also if you can get any details of the present working zone pump,

What is the boiler output and how many rads?.

When you do eventually get rid of the air and if the unaffected zone is running OK with the UPS3 on setting 2 then it may only be a case of matching the alpha 1L to it although IMO speed 1 on the UPS3 should be perfectly adequate.

Your system is unusual as pumped zoning is normally installed in the flow from the boiler with no primary pump or zone valves but with a spring loaded NR valve on each zone pump to stop gravity circulation.

It's a vented system with a grant back boiler, any value in turning down the pipe stat to get that pump beside the back boiler going?

heffo500 · 20-12-2020 10:08AM

This is the pump on the zone that's working.

http://imgur.com/a/k723LP0

I noticed on the zone pump for the zone not heating the bottom gate valve the spindle on it has not come out as far as the spindle on the top gate valve

John.G · 20-12-2020 11:01AM

Are you sure that they are not gate valves, ie 3 or 4 full turns from shut to open, if the valve I showed you in my attachment is a 1/4 turn ball valve, a completely different type, the "spindle" on these doesn't move in or out at all.

heffo500 · 20-12-2020 11:23AM

John.G wrote: »

Are you sure that they are not gate valves, ie 3 or 4 full turns from shut to open, if the valve I showed you in my attachment is a 1/4 turn ball valve, a completely different type, the "spindle" on these doesn't move in or out at all.

Correct on the pump on the return to the zone not heating the pump has gate valves I checked and the return side of the pump the gate valve wasted opening so I took it apart and have open now.

I've both zones on now and check to see the rads need bleeding now.

heffo500 · 20-12-2020 11:27AM

Heating https://imgur.com/a/wzRTPVu

The gate valve in the pic wasn't opening. I also noticed the state of the magnaclean. I've also included a pic of the main pump that I removed.

John.G · 20-12-2020 11:53AM

Ok getting somewhere now I think.

fixed speed 1 on the UPS3 is actually more powerful than the fixed speed 2 on the DAB, I would suggest running (the ups3) on constant pressure CP1 which will be slightly higher than the DAB on speed 2 but pretty close to it. I would then suggest running the Alpha 1L on fixed speed 1 and see how you get on.

When things settle down.....
Check the vent in the attic for air ingress by tying a small plastic bag of water to it with the vent immersed in it, if any problem, the water will disappear out of the bag. Also check for no movement of water in the tank itself.

Leaking Pump Valve

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