Leaking Pump Valve

heffo500

Hi

The 1 inch ball pump valve either side of my central heating valve are leaking after I closed them to change a pump.

My new grundfos pump doesn't sound right either.

Would the leaking valves be letting air in?

Where would I get replacements tomorrow?

Thanks

DublinDilbert

heffo500 wrote: »

Hi

The 1 inch ball pump valve either side of my central heating valve are leaking after I closed them to change a pump.

My new grundfos pump doesn't sound right either.

Would the leaking valves be letting air in?

Where would I get replacements tomorrow?

Thanks

Probably air in the pump, close the valve on one side and crack the 52mm nut on that side to fill the pump and let the air out. You might be able to get the butterfly valves into a position which they won't leak, but they are notorious for it.

If your getting valves, don't go for the butterfly type go for the gate valve design.

Try screw fix if you need them tomorrow, b&q should have some too...

heffo500

DublinDilbert wrote: »

Probably air in the pump, close the valve on one side and crack the 52mm nut on that side to fill the pump and let the air out. You might be able to get the butterfly valves into a position which they won't leak, but they are notorious for it.

If your getting valves, don't go for the butterfly type go for the gate valve design.

Try screw fix if you need them tomorrow, b&q should have some too...

Thankfully they have stopped leaking. I wonder did I let air into the system as one of the zones isn't heating now.

Will it clear in time?

John.G

Is the zone not heating if running on its own or is it not heating when all zones are on?, if the latter then possibly the new pump on the wrong setting, what pump and model have you installed and what mode/setting is it on?, also what was the old pump and its setting?

heffo500

John.G wrote: »

Is the zone not heating if running on its own or is it not heating when all zones are on?, if the latter then possibly the new pump on the wrong setting, what pump and model have you installed and what mode/setting is it on?, also what was the old pump and its setting?

It's not heating on its own.

This is the pump, I've installed the below:

GRUNDFOS UPS3 15-50/65 DOMESTIC HEATING CIRCULATOR 230V as the primary flow pump.


Grundfos Alpha1 L 25-65 130 Circ. Pump as the return pump on the zone not heating.

Both are on speed 2, same as the old pumps were.

John.G

So you have pumps on all zones as distinct from zone valves and you also have a primary circulating pump.?

heffo500

John.G wrote: »

So you have pumps on all zones as distinct from zone valves and you also have a primary circulating pump.?

We have a primary circulating pump on the flow side and a pump on both zones which kick in when the corresponding motorised zone valve receives power.

The two pumps were added sometime ago to improve the response time as one pump was not sufficient due to the size of the system.

John.G

Is there a Alpha 1 L on the other zone as well?

heffo500

John.G wrote: »

Is there a Alpha 1 L on the other zone as well?

The other pump is like an old pump set at speed 2. It's like a cheap version of a grundfos.

I'll take a picture of the system tomorrow.

heffo500

Is there much difference between the two grundfos pumps I've put in. One I got from Screwfix this evening, the other from my local plumbing wholesalers.

John.G

OK thanks, speed 2 on the Alpha 1L starts at a very high head of 6.5M (same as speed 3) While it probably isn't the cause of your problem, speed 1 is @ a 4.5M head which IMO would be much closer to the original pump, a picture will also be good.

heffo500

John.G wrote: »

OK thanks, speed 2 on the Alpha 1L starts at a very high head of 6.5M (same as speed 3) While it probably isn't the cause of your problem, speed 1 is @ a 4.5M head which IMO would be much closer to the original pump, a picture will also be good.

So I should set the alpha to speed 1 and leave the other at grundfos as speed 2?

heffo500

How do the speeds on the pumps work? Do the slow speed push further or something like that?

John.G

Yes, suggest you set the Alpha 1L (zone pump) to speed 1 and leave the other at speed 2.
you are saying that the other zone with its old pump is working OK with the new primary UPS3??.
Will explain speeds later.

Also ensure that both valves on the zone pump are full open ie screw driver slot(s) vertical.

heffo500

John.G wrote: »

Yes, suggest you set the Alpha 1L (zone pump) to speed 1 and leave the other at speed 2.
you are saying that the other zone with its old pump is working OK with the new primary UPS3??.
Will explain speeds later.

Also ensure that both valves on the zone pump are full open ie screw driver slot(s) vertical.

Yeah the other zone is working fine. There seem to be air at motorised valve of the zone not working as when I cracked the nut, nothing came out then cold water and now heat seems to be passing through the motorised valve of the zone that wasn't heating.

heffo500

Heating https://imgur.com/a/L6Se6Ik

Here's some photos of the system. The valve on the far right on the 3/4 is the zone that isn't heating.

John.G

Can see that zone pumps are on the return, just to stick to the basics for the moment, just check that both valves on that zone pump are open and that the arrow on its pump body is pointing upwards.

heffo500

John.G wrote: »

Can see that zone pumps are on the return, just to stick to the basics for the moment, just check that both valves on that zone pump are open and that the arrow on its pump body is pointing upwards.

Yeah I've checked that just there and the orientation is correct. I've also removed the motorised valve on the 3/4 inch and spray with some oil to make sure it's moving freely. The heat seems to be passing the valve now but the rads still aren't heating

John.G

So to recap, the UPS3 is pumping upwards on the flow?? from the boiler and the zone pumps are also pumping upwards but into the boiler return, even if the zone pump wasn't running you might expect some flow so maybe air or a problem with that zone valve, what is that grey (round) item directly under the new zone pump?.

heffo500

John.G wrote: »

So to recap, the UPS3 is pumping upwards on the flow?? from the boiler and the zone pumps are also pumping upwards but into the boiler return, even if the zone pump wasn't running you might expect some flow so maybe air or a problem with that zone valve, what is that grey (round) item directly under the new zone pump?.

That's correct the main pump is the UPS3 and pointed away from the boiler.

The others are on the return and pointing towards the boiler.

The round thing is a magnaclean micro 2.

Will the air eventually find its way out?

John.G

Hopefully, yes, you have obviously bled rads etc, also these new smart circ pumps are a pain as there is no vent screw like before, I assume the zone valves are on the flow, it might help if you changed the ups 3 pump to speed 3 temporarily and keep venting the rads until you get circulation, can't think of anything else just now, heading for the bunk shortly.

heffo500

Thanks so much for the help so far. I'll leave the heating on all night and see if it sorts it's self overnight.

I'll knock up the speed in the morning if it's still the same.

heffo500

Slight update, loads of the rads had air in them so I've bled them and will see in the morning if there's more air to be bled

John.G

If you have a vented system with a small F&E tank in the attic then it is quite common to have air ingress or pump over via the vent especially on pump change out and different settings. If your system is like this then you might have to change both the primary and the zone pump settings.

A sealed system with expansion vessel and set to 1.5 bar will not have these problems.

What pump did the UPS3 replace? (might have asked this previously) and also if you can get any details of the present working zone pump,

What is the boiler output and how many rads?.

When you do eventually get rid of the air and if the unaffected zone is running OK with the UPS3 on setting 2 then it may only be a case of matching the alpha 1L to it although IMO speed 1 on the UPS3 should be perfectly adequate.

Your system is unusual as pumped zoning is normally installed in the flow from the boiler with no primary pump or zone valves but with a spring loaded NR valve on each zone pump to stop gravity circulation.

heffo500

I left the heating on over night and still no heat and no air in the rads on that zone either.

I'll get the names of both pumps to see if I can find out the settings.

I'll turn up the power of the main pump to see if that helps as u suggested, will the air eventually come out of it?

Is there any value in having the other zone heating, would help with the circulation and move the air lock?

heffo500

John.G wrote: »

If you have a vented system with a small F&E tank in the attic then it is quite common to have air ingress or pump over via the vent especially on pump change out and different settings. If your system is like this then you might have to change both the primary and the zone pump settings.

A sealed system with expansion vessel and set to 1.5 bar will not have these problems.

What pump did the UPS3 replace? (might have asked this previously) and also if you can get any details of the present working zone pump,

What is the boiler output and how many rads?.

When you do eventually get rid of the air and if the unaffected zone is running OK with the UPS3 on setting 2 then it may only be a case of matching the alpha 1L to it although IMO speed 1 on the UPS3 should be perfectly adequate.

Your system is unusual as pumped zoning is normally installed in the flow from the boiler with no primary pump or zone valves but with a spring loaded NR valve on each zone pump to stop gravity circulation.

It's a vented system with a grant back boiler, any value in turning down the pipe stat to get that pump beside the back boiler going?

heffo500

This is the pump on the zone that's working.

http://imgur.com/a/k723LP0

I noticed on the zone pump for the zone not heating the bottom gate valve the spindle on it has not come out as far as the spindle on the top gate valve

John.G

Are you sure that they are not gate valves, ie 3 or 4 full turns from shut to open, if the valve I showed you in my attachment is a 1/4 turn ball valve, a completely different type, the "spindle" on these doesn't move in or out at all.

heffo500

John.G wrote: »

Are you sure that they are not gate valves, ie 3 or 4 full turns from shut to open, if the valve I showed you in my attachment is a 1/4 turn ball valve, a completely different type, the "spindle" on these doesn't move in or out at all.

Correct on the pump on the return to the zone not heating the pump has gate valves I checked and the return side of the pump the gate valve wasted opening so I took it apart and have open now.

I've both zones on now and check to see the rads need bleeding now.

heffo500

Heating https://imgur.com/a/wzRTPVu

The gate valve in the pic wasn't opening. I also noticed the state of the magnaclean. I've also included a pic of the main pump that I removed.

John.G

Ok getting somewhere now I think.

fixed speed 1 on the UPS3 is actually more powerful than the fixed speed 2 on the DAB, I would suggest running (the ups3) on constant pressure CP1 which will be slightly higher than the DAB on speed 2 but pretty close to it. I would then suggest running the Alpha 1L on fixed speed 1 and see how you get on.

When things settle down.....
Check the vent in the attic for air ingress by tying a small plastic bag of water to it with the vent immersed in it, if any problem, the water will disappear out of the bag. Also check for no movement of water in the tank itself.

heffo500

John.G wrote: »

Ok getting somewhere now I think.

fixed speed 1 on the UPS3 is actually more powerful than the fixed speed 2 on the DAB, I would suggest running (the ups3) on constant pressure CP1 which will be slightly higher than the DAB on speed 2 but pretty close to it. I would then suggest running the Alpha 1L on fixed speed 1 and see how you get on.

When things settle down.....
Check the vent in the attic for air ingress by tying a small plastic bag of water to it with the vent immersed in it, if any problem, the water will disappear out of the bag. Also check for no movement of water in the tank itself.

Sound I've done that now, so I'll leave it a while and wait and see?

John.G

Are you getting hot water circulation now in both zones??.

How many rads on each zoine and any idea of the OF boiler output?

Also just for interest, how long did the DAB last before packing up?.

heffo500

John.G wrote: »

Are you getting hot water circulation now in both zones??.

How many rads on each zoine and any idea of the OF boiler output?

Also just for interest, how long did the DAB last before packing up?.

Only on the main zone that was always working.

8 rads on the main zone most large doubles and 8 in the house part 4 doubles and 4 singles panels.

I think it's a 150,000 BTU or 120,000 BTU warmflow boiler.

Maybe 2 to 3 years the pump has lasted,

I've bought the big Magnaclean filter machine and intend to do a system flush in January as the system seems to be full of sludge.

I was also going to put a Magna clean on the inch pipe feed the zone that's working fine as the current micro is only on the 3/4 return.

I've also got an 1 inch spirotech aerator that I was going to put on the flow side to help the system remain air free.

Could this valve in this link be stuck too? Could I shut the motorised valve on the flow side above and replace it or would I need to drain the whole system down? Would I better off replacing the gate valve with a level valve?

This lever valve has been leaking for a while.

http://imgur.com/gallery/iZjEUCR

John.G

So, you are not getting any hot water flow still through that zone??, are you absolutely sure that the valves on either side of the Alpha 1L are actually opened, ie is there 4 or 5 full turns on each from fully open to fully shut and vica versa.

Re lever valves, I prefer gate valves myself as you can tighten the gland if they start leaking, you have actually shown a gate valve and you might be able to tighten the gland nut on that, the motorised valve will isolate it at one side but you need another valve somewhere else on the other side if you want to renew it.

These aerators are unnecessary if the system is not drawing in air in the first place but with the two or three pumps its a difficult task.
Also air ingress causes corrosion hence the state of your filter. I would say that system is drawing in air for years.

heffo500

John.G wrote: »

So, you are not getting any hot water flow still through that zone??, are you absolutely sure that the valves on either side of the Alpha 1L are actually opened, ie is there 4 or 5 full turns on each from fully open to fully shut and vica versa.

Re lever valves, I prefer gate valves myself as you can tighten the gland if they start leaking, you have actually shown a gate valve and you might be able to tighten the gland nut on that, the motorised valve will isolate it at one side but you need another valve somewhere else on the other side if you want to renew it.

These aerators are unnecessary if the system is not drawing in air in the first place but with the two or three pumps its a difficult task.
Also air ingress causes corrosion hence the state of your filter. I would say that system is drawing in air for years.

Yeah I opened them and they did open, maybe I'll try get new ones and replace them.

The pipes from the boiler go underground so if I turn off the motorised valve and shut of the feed tank surely they will only be the water in the pipe in the boiler house I would need to deal with? I could very wrong here but I think I seen a plumber do something very similar

John.G

You might be able to replace it that way, I just don't know, you said above that it might be stuck but you can check that by shutting it fully and then re opening it, if you can do this then its ok except that the valve has come off the valve spindle, very unlikely IMO.

heffo500

John.G wrote: »

You might be able to replace it that way, I just don't know, you said above that it might be stuck but you can check that by shutting it fully and then re opening it, if you can do this then its ok except that the valve has come off the valve spindle, very unlikely IMO.

Yeah I think the valve seems at fault because the heat doesn't seem to pass it unless I have it open a certain way. Maybe I'll just drain down the system and replace that valve? It's leaking anyway.

Thanks for the help btw

heffo500

Got all the gate valves in Screwfix so will drain down the system and give and let you know.

Would you recommend when I refill the system just to have the pumps on and not the boiler till its all vented?

John.G

Yes, that would be a good idea, also make sure you manually latch open both zone valves while re filling but ensure that they don't call in the pumps by switching off all power until system refilled.

heffo500

John.G wrote: »

Yes, that would be a good idea, also make sure you manually latch open both zone valves while re filling but ensure that they don't call in the pumps by switching off all power until system refilled.

Sound the boiler has a little consumer unit beside it so it'll be easy to power off the MCB while I do this, so should have the pumps back on straight or let it fill up first?

John.G

Fill first, zone valves open but without any pumps and vent all rads (without pumps) then run the pumps for say 10 minutes then stop and vent rads again, I generally would vent rads with pumps off even when system is hot.

heffo500

John.G wrote: »

Fill first, zone valves open but without any pumps and vent all rads (without pumps) then run the pumps for say 10 minutes then stop and vent rads again, I generally would vent rads with pumps off even when system is hot.

Still the same I'm afraid, would there be any value in swapping the two grundfos pumps? Have the alpha 1 as the primary on the flow?

John.G

What valves did you renew?

Was this affected zoned system working up to the time you changed to the Alpha 1L?

Does the primary UPS3 supply both zone valves, if so, and because one zone is working then I wouldn't change pumps.

Are you sure that the affected zone valve is actually opening?

John.G

I would shut down the affected zone, shut the alpha 1 isolating valves, remove the pump and prove via the isol valves that you actually have a water flow from both sides, you will have to open the zone valve as well.

heffo500

John.G wrote: »

What valves did you renew?

Was this affected zoned system working up to the time you changed to the Alpha 1L?

Does the primary UPS3 supply both zone valves, if so, and because one zone is working then I wouldn't change pumps.

Are you sure that the affected zone valve is actually opening?

It was working before I changed the pump but the old pump was leaking badly. I already swapped the pumps and the zone that was working is still heating ok.

heffo500

John.G wrote: »

I would shut down the affected zone, shut the alpha 1 isolating valves, remove the pump and prove via the isol valves that you actually have a water flow from both sides, you will have to open the zone valve as well.

I replaced one of the valves on the side of the zone pump, and opened both of them and water was coming out fine. I changed the gate valve on the zone as it was also leaking.

heffo500

I forgot to ask what is difference between the two grundfos pumps?

John.G

My internet is acting up.

The UPS3 basically has more settings than the Alpha 1

You said
"I already swapped the pumps and the zone that was working is still heating ok."

So that zone is working with the the old pump from the affected zone??, doesn't seem logical but can you relocate that pump back to the affected zone and the Alpha1 to the good zone and see what happens.

heffo500

John.G wrote: »

My internet is acting up.

The UPS3 basically has more settings than the Alpha 1

You said
"I already swapped the pumps and the zone that was working is still heating ok."

So that zone is working with the the old pump from the affected zone??, doesn't seem logical but can you relocate that pump back to the affected zone and the Alpha1 to the good zone and see what happens.

Yeah so the good zone on the system is working fine regardless of what pump I have as the main pump.

Just the zone in the house won't heat regardless of what I do. I have a guy coming tomorrow so I'll let you know what he says.

Thanks again for all the help, I cannot really understand what else we can do, could it be sludge?

John.G

Possibly sludge if this zone is on the ground floor and if you drained the system down originally, still you might have expected some flow somewhere, it still has all the hall marks of some shut valve or other but I think you have done all you can, good luck tomorrow.