Justice League Spoilers from post 980 onward

pixelburp · 15-12-2020 02:00PM

Drumpot wrote: »

That’s not necessarily a bad thing. Until I see it I will reserve judgment but perhaps the nature of how this is actually happening means Snyder is now able to push the boat out a lot more then he would originally been allowed. Perhaps some of the changes would not of been in his original plans because he would certainly not of starting the JL with an R rating in mind. In short, maybe he’s going wild because he can, it’s fascinating to see what he comes up with.

I've seen enough cinema to have a personal theory that the more a director is indulged, the lesser the final product. Within reason like, there is a sweet spot cos excess external control is also poisonous; but it's funny how often great film was born from a degree of hardship or financial / creative restraint. Directors let off the leash - arguably seen with Netflix's bevvy of auteur films from Scorcese, Fincher and Bay, all given carte blanche - tend towards bagginess, bloating and occasionally being unwatchable.

So with this, I wonder if Synder is being given too much leeway. Obviously a huge "time will tell" caveat applies to an unreleased film - or miniseries, whatever this thing is - but precedent tells me things don't necessarily bode well either.

Drumpot · 15-12-2020 02:19PM

pixelburp wrote: »

I've seen enough cinema to have a personal theory that the more a director is indulged, the lesser the final product. Within reason like, there is a sweet spot cos excess external control is also poisonous; but it's funny how often great film was born from a degree of hardship or financial / creative restraint. Directors let off the leash - arguably seen with Netflix's bevvy of auteur films from Scorcese, Fincher and Bay, all given carte blanche - tend towards bagginess, bloating and occasionally being unwatchable.

So with this, I wonder if Synder is being given too much leeway. Obviously a huge "time will tell" caveat applies to an unreleased film - or miniseries, whatever this thing is - but precedent tells me things don't necessarily bode well either.

When the studio made such a balls of JL , which was terrible to be fair, I find it hard to see how the Snyder cut will not be better to be honest. I think its nothing but a positive to see this cut being made and nobody loses out. The studio get to send out a tentpoll massive movie in cinema and subscription for a fraction of the cost of a blockbuster like it (they effectively already made most of JL twice, why not), the director gets to make the movie they wanted to make and fans get to see a potentially far superior JL movie. Whats not to like ?

But that aside, I think the subjective rating of this movie will boil down to people who enjoy Snyder movies and people who do not. Think of it like BvS, that I thought was a lot better then was received. The extended version made, in my view, an already epic movie better. You could say the extended version was more Snyder and it didn't change most peoples views much from the original. if you didnt like the original, the extended didnt make an awful lot of difference. I know this is a different beast, but the same logic applies in that those who dont like Snyders filmaking methods will fail to enjoy this. Some people remarkably thought the JL movie was better then BvS, with that sort of logic I do not see them enjoying the snyder cut on any level.

This is a general statement (not directed at you) but I do not get the snobbish dislike of Snyder (visual filmmaker). Kind of similar to Michael Bay, he's really good at what he does even if you don't like his movies. Snyder makes movies that I usually enjoy. I can enjoy all kinds of movies for different reasons but I reject a lot of the subjective criticism he gets (in this thread its evident). I still think Watchmen (extended cut) is one of the top 5 comicbook movies ever made.

pixelburp · 15-12-2020 03:14PM

Drumpot wrote: »

[...]
This is a general statement (not directed at you) but I do not get the snobbish dislike of Snyder (visual filmmaker). Kind of similar to Michael Bay, he's really good at what he does even if you don't like his movies. Snyder makes movies that I usually enjoy. I can enjoy all kinds of movies for different reasons but I reject a lot of the subjective criticism he gets (in this thread its evident). I still think Watchmen (extended cut) is one of the top 5 comicbook movies ever made.

That's kinda leaning into my point IMO: I think Michael Bay CAN make good movies; we know this ... cos he has - I daresay only the most snobbish would say otherwise TBH. His partnership with the late Don Simpson was arguably his high point, producing some genuinely excellent, albeit overblown entertainment. Maybe Transformers was the tipping point, maybe it was Pearl Harbour: either way, his fame and success increasingly created bloated, borderline unwatchable indulgences ... all culminating in 6 Underground - and absolute chaotic monstrosity of a movie. I'd rarely call something utter trash, but it was it, and saddening 'cos I know once upon a time Michael Bay made better movies than this.

The exact same can be said of Synder in my view; he's an auteur without any restraint applied to his work - which in the DC universe has yielded the same, overwrought "gods amongst men" theme. But we know he can create genuinely good movies 'cos like Bay ... he has. If you have enjoyed his latterday work then that's fair enough and we're not likely to meet in the middle; but for me, he's yet another creative auteur lost in the weeds of his own reputation, fame ... whatever we call it. As I said, Netflix have recently enabled this with some directors, while I also believe this is seen with someone like Quentin Tarantino.

IMO, behind every great director, there's a great editor / producer, reigning them in. This cut of Justice League increasingly smells like Synder's missing this sobering voice.

Drumpot · 15-12-2020 05:07PM

pixelburp wrote: »

That's kinda proving my point IMO: I think Michael Bay CAN make good movies; we know this ... cos he has - I daresay only the most snobbish would say otherwise TBH. His partnership with the late Don Simpson was arguably his high point, producing some genuinely excellent, albeit overblown entertainment. Maybe Transformers was the tipping point, maybe it was Pearl Harbour: either way, his fame and success increasingly created bloated, borderline unwatchable indulgences ... all culminating in 6 Underground - and absolute chaotic monstrosity of a movie. I'd rarely call something utter trash, but it was it, and saddening 'cos I know once upon a time Michael Bay made better movies than this.

The exact same can be said of Synder in my view; he's an auteur without any restraint applied to his work - which in the DC universe has yielded the same, overwrought "gods amongst men" theme. But we know he can create genuinely good movies 'cos like Bay ... he has. If you have enjoyed his latterday work then that's fair enough and we're not likely to meet in the middle; but for me, he's yet another creative auteur lost in the weeds of his own reputation, fame ... whatever we call it. As I said, Netflix have recently enabled this with some directors, while I also believe this is seen with someone like Quentin Tarantino.

IMO, behind every great director, there's a great editor / producer, reigning them in. This cut of Justice League increasingly smells like Synder's missing this sobering voice.

I love movies, working in Xtra vision in the 90s, to this day, is still my favorite ever job. I have this crazy dream if I ever win the lotto, that I will reopen a video store just for fun.

I may not be the connoisseur of movies like yourself, but my appreciation of movies is passionate but on a less critical level. I prefer to look for what I enjoy in movies, then focus or point out what I did not like (I like the way Kevin Smith takes a similar approach to movies). As such I enjoy more movies on different levels. I adapt my expectations to the level I think is reasonable for whats on offer. You could say I have a lower bar for entertainment, but that does not mean I do not get great enjoyment out of movies or greater enjoyment out of classics.

In many cases with Snyder movies I am not overly excited when I initially see them, but for some reason his movies in particular seem to grow on me with multiple viewings. In a weird way, in spite of being very different directors, the same thing can happen for me with Paul Thomas Anderson movies. Where I am not enthralled on first viewing but his movies really grow on me over rewatches. Magnolia comes to mind. Punch Drunk Love and Boogie nights are equally superb movies for completely different reasons in my opinion.

But its a fair point in terms of having the right complimentary people around a director. Lucas with Star Wars was one big example where nobody questioned him, causing major issues many had with Prequels (interesting that over time these have actually become more popular with fanbase). What adds weight to your point is that what is perceived to be accepted as the best of them was the one Lucas didn't direct.

In terms of Bay, I suppose I just take his movies as they are, I am not overly invested in them and when I goto the cinema to watch his stuff I expect cheese with a side order of cheese. Armageddon is one of the best "my kind of cheese" movies ever made (recently watched it with my wife and it was fun). The first Transformers movie was a bit of fun but I actually enjoyed 13 hours aswell, possibly a I had heard little of either of them before seeing them originall and they were oddly entertaining.

In terms of Snyder, DOTD, 300 (fun and unique at the time), Watchmen, MOS and BvS are movies I can generally watch again and enjoy. I understand your reservations about an "unleashed Snyder" JL cut may take, but again I do not see it as a negative, only if you aren't really somebody who enjoys Snyders directorial styles. I can really enjoy Marvel movies, but they are copy and paste with just the right ingredients. I think Snyders "dirty" alternative universe is a much welcome change to the Comicbook movie pool. Doesnt make his movies good, but I find them more enjoyable on repeat viewings and am drawn to watch them more then Marvel movies again. I think I find their imperfection endearing.

I would rather see what he is going to do, then them do nothing as JL is a terrible ending to his trilogy (if you want to call it that). I suppose if you didnt enjoy MOS or BvS then it makes sense that you wouldn't be excited about this JL cut. But on the flipside, it makes total sense that if you enjoyed the first two , that you would be excited to see what Zack is going to do with this.

pixelburp · 15-12-2020 05:48PM

Drumpot wrote: »

I love movies, working in Xtra vision in the 90s, to this day, is still my favorite ever job. I have this crazy dream if I ever win the lotto, that I will reopen a video store just for fun.

I may not be the connoisseur of movies like yourself, but my appreciation of movies is passionate but on a less critical level. [...]

Ha, I've been called many things on this site, but rarely a "connoisseur" of anything

I do appreciate simply enjoying films on an emotional, visceral level. My well-worn DVD copy of The Rocketeer is testament to that. But equally, I have a critical eye that in more extreme cases is hard to shut off. Modern Michael Bay is one of those cases: The Rock is fun; 6 Underground was not.

To Synder, what it probably, fundamentally comes down to is that I just don't buy into Synder / Geoff Johns "gods among men" approach to the DC catalogue. It's too overwrought, too tortured. I don't want the Adam West end of the scale either mind you ... now, the Animated Series from the 90s? That seemed to hit the right sweet spot between drama & fun. Man of Steel nearly had me, but that last act blew the goodwill out the water; the rest I think I've jousted with you before :P

ThePott · 15-12-2020 05:59PM

I think you're both making some interesting points.
Lucas and Tarantino are good examples of directors who need some restraint or at the very least someone to guide them.

For Tarantino once his longtime editor Sally Menke died (last film she did with him was Basterds) I have found his films to be overlong and indulgent.

For Lucas his ex-wife was instrumental to the success of the original trilogy, not the least of which because she edited it. She was one of the few people that could tell him something was weak and what characters didn't work and he often forged the script from that feedback. By many accounts the original film was a disaster till she came in to edit it. If you ask most she was what gave the films some heart. Their marriage starts falling apart before ROTJ. When we get to the prequels there's no one really to second guess Lucas, it'll succeed anyway cause it's Star Wars but he doesn't have that person telling him no.

For Snyder I feel he is an interesting visual filmmaker when he works with a strong creative voice as a writer or a clear source material to base it on. When left to his own devices he is indulgent, edgy, pseudo-intellectual and at times incomprehensible. I actually like some of his work but his DC work has been a mess IMO. That being said as much as I absolutely hated BvS, I can at least see ideas and attempts at something ambitious as much as I think they are misguided and often fail. I would take it over Justice League purely as a film (as much as I'd watch JL over BvS as it is mercifully shorter and has fun moments).

He needs a guiding hand. In the confines of a studio system he is just not likely to deliver. It's no surprise that he is going to Netflix and now this is going to HBO Max. I agree as well that we can definitively say this is not a 'Snyder Cut' or at least what we were lead to believe. It's totally different to what he originally envisioned and has the benefit of hindsight. I think the whole social media campaign has only lead to an inflated ego that means he is even less likely to recognise his faults as a filmmaker and more likely to deliver an overblown mess which will at least be fascinating as an experiment, although the final product itself might be a slog. I'm sure his fanbase will eat it up regardless though.

dublinman1990 · 17-12-2020 11:37PM

Gal Gadot was involved in the WarnerMedia Investigation about Fisher & Whedon.

Gal Gadot Confirms She Was Interviewed as Part of WarnerMedia’s ‘Justice League’ Investigation (EXCLUSIVE)

Gal Gadot provided testimony for WarnerMedia’s investigation into misconduct on the set of “Justice League,” the actor tells Variety.

“I know that they’ve done a very thorough investigation, even just by how much time I spent with them,” the “Wonder Woman 1984” star said Thursday during an interview for the Variety and iHeart podcast “The Big Ticket.”

WarnerMedia said in a statement on Dec. 11 that it had concluded its investigation into the set of “Justice League.”

“WarnerMedia’s investigation into the ‘Justice League’ movie has concluded and remedial action has been taken,” the statement read.

WarnerMedia has not disclosed its findings or what the “remedial action” entails.

Gadot said she hasn’t been told anything. “I don’t know what that means either,” she said, adding, “I’m curious to know what’s going to be the outcome.”

Variety learned in August that an investigation was launched after “Justice League” star Ray Fisher went public with allegations that director Joss Whedon and producers Geoff Johns and Jon Berg engaged in misconduct on the set.

Fisher tweeted a statement he said he received from WarnerMedia at the close of the investigation. “WarnerMedia appreciates you having the courage to come forward and assist the company with creating an inclusive and equitable work environment for its employees and partners,” the statement read.

Fisher added, “There are still conversations that need to be had and resolutions that need to be found.”

He also tweeted about the “remedial action,” writing, “some we’ve seen, and some that is still to come.”

In July, Fisher tweeted that he found Whedon’s treatment of the cast and crew “gross, abusive, unprofessional, and completely unacceptable.” He said that former Warner Bros. Co-President of Production Berg and former DC Entertainment President and Chief Creative Officer Johns, who were also producers on the movie, enabled the behavior.

Whedon has declined to comment on Fisher’s claims. Berg said in July that it was “categorically untrue that we enabled any unprofessional behavior.”

Gadot told the Los Angeles Times that she didn’t shoot with Fisher, but “I had my own experience with [Whedon], which wasn’t the best one, but I took care of it there and when it happened. I took it to the higher-ups and they took care of it. But I’m happy for Ray to go up and say his truth.”

Source: Variety

Tony EH · 17-12-2020 11:49PM

I can't stand Joss Whedon, but what did he do?

"Gross, abusive, unprofessional, and completely unacceptable" behaviour describes every single director from the beginning of film making.

A director being a prick to his cast and crew is a staple of Hollywood.

LOL

JP Liz V1 · 18-12-2020 12:02AM

Tony EH wrote: »

I can't stand Joss Whedon, but what did he do?

"Gross, abusive, unprofessional, and completely unacceptable" behaviour describes every single director from the beginning of film making.

A director being a prick to his cast and crew is a staple of Hollywood.

LOL

Has Joss Whedon previous form on other tv shows or films?

Tony EH · 18-12-2020 12:26AM

JP Liz V1 wrote: »

Has Joss Whedon previous form on other tv shows or films?

No idea ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

The White Wolf · 18-12-2020 04:21AM

JP Liz V1 wrote: »

Has Joss Whedon previous form on other tv shows or films?

Yes he rounded on Charisma Carpenter for becoming pregnant on Angel because she had the temerity to mess up his writing.

So what he did instead was character assassinate her character and then write her off for the final season. Carpenter is on record saying all of this. She was immensely popular and basically the star alongside David Boreanez.

His ex wife accused him of being unfaithful with actresses on his shows as well.

mikhail · 18-12-2020 12:03PM

He basically admitted to the wife's allegation. Infidelity is a ****ty thing to do, but I think it's a fairly separate issue unless there's a casting couch allegation which I haven't heard explicitly.

I find the accusations (which are irritatingly vague) a bit hard to square with the loyalty his actors generally seem to have shown him. There are so many who have followed him from show to show. Maybe he was just a meal ticket, but I'm inclined to reserve judgement.

Agent Coulson · 18-12-2020 05:04PM

JP Liz V1 wrote: »

Has Joss Whedon previous form on other tv shows or films?

Reading about this today and came across the below.

Inside of You with Michael Rosenbaum podcast, Spike actor James Marsters revealed Whedon's unsettling reaction to his character's surprise popularity, saying "I remember he backed me up against a wall one day and he was just like, ‘I don’t care how popular you are, kid, you’re dead. You hear me? Dead. Dead!'" Marsters assured Rosenbaum Whedon wasn't joking around, either, and "was angry at the situation

, Charisma said she had no idea whether she would be coming back after season 4 until she "got a phone call from somebody in the press, which really sucked." She went on to add she felt Whedon "was, honestly, mad" at her for becoming pregnant, which led to her character being written out of the series. At the same time, Carpenter has framed Whedon's behavior in a sympathetic light, explaining "I think he was mad at me and I say that in a loving way, which is - it’s a very complicated dynamic working for somebody so many years, and expectations, and also being on a show for eight years, you gotta live your life. And sometimes living your life gets in the way of maybe the creator’s vision for the future. And that becomes a conflict, and that was my experience."

Sarah Michelle Gellar's stunt double and a stunt coordinator for Buffy the Vampire Slayer from seasons 1-4. In an interview with MetroUK published this month, Pruitt said his working relationship with Whedon was "great" at the start of Buffy, but increasingly deteriorated as the show became more and more of a success and the latter began to exert more creative control. By the time season 4 rolled around, Pruitt had become "fed up" and told the series' producers he was planning to leave to go work on other projects, adding "The producers told me that Joss reacted as if I was having an affair or something behind his back."

Pruitt was then asked to return for Buffy season 5 and agreed to, but only before Whedon met with Crawford about her own continued involvement with the show. According to Crawford, "I was called into the office and I was given an ultimatum. And they said to me, “Come back to the show, but you need to leave Jeff, or don’t come back.” And so I basically started crying. And I said “F you. That’s horrible, bye.” Pruitt similarly departed the show after he continued to butt heads with Whedon both publicly and on-set, alleging to Metro "Joss told both Sophia and I that 'no one will ever hire you again after this'. He never says to anyone that he’ll see to it you never work in this town again. He is very careful. He only insinuates that no one will ever hire you again if you don’t please him." Whedon has yet to comment on either Crawford or Pruitt's accusations against him.

hedon's ex-wife Kai Cole (who collaborated with him on a number of his projects) wrote an essay accusing him of being a "hypocrite preaching feminist ideals." Published by The Wrap in August 2017, the article alleges Whedon admitted to Cole "he hid multiple affairs and a number of inappropriate emotional ones that he had with his actresses, co-workers, fans and friends" while the pair were married, going back to his time as showrunner on Buffy. Cole goes on to accused Whedon of using his relationship to her as a way to protect himself "so no one would question his relationships with other women or scrutinize his writing as anything other than feminist."

In a response, a representative for Whedon claimed Cole's essay "includes inaccuracies and misrepresentations," but that Whedon wouldn't be issuing a formal comment "out of concern for his children and out of respect for his ex-wife." This all took place just two months before the Harvey Weinstein sexual abuse scandal broke in October 2017, resulting in the #MeToo movement gaining mainstream recognition and further discussion of how Whedon's alleged infidelities reflect on him professionally. Most of this conversation has centered on Cole's claim that Whedon had affairs with multiple women on his TV series and how that constitutes inappropriate behavior due to the power and influence he could exert over their careers.

https://screenrant.com/joss-whedon-abuse-misconduct-allegations-accusations-explained/

Agent Coulson · 20-12-2020 05:51PM

The Snyder Cut arrives in March according Snyder.

Agent Coulson · 21-12-2020 11:10PM

Snyder saying he would love Affleck to make the planned Batman vs. Deathstroke.

HBO Max and needing content may save the DCEU yet especially with Affleck back as Batman for the Flash.

Agent Coulson · 31-12-2020 05:19PM

Walter Hamada DC Films President.

https://twitter.com/ray8fisher/status/1344324757290950657?s=20

pixelburp · 31-12-2020 05:27PM

For context, apparently Cyborg was to feature In The Flash, but WB / Hanada refused rewrites requested by Fisher. Well, Fisher claims there's more to it than rewrite arguments, but hasn't shared any actual detail. This whole feud is quite tedious by now, cloaked in abstracts and no actual substance from Fisher that might make him look less like a bitter belligerent. He's coming across very foolish

Agent Coulson · 31-12-2020 05:50PM

At this stage DC/WB should just recast the role.

I partly say that just to see his reaction and his reaction to the actor that takes the role.

kerplun k · 31-12-2020 05:53PM

Jesus mam, get over it. Professionalism goes both ways.

FunLover18 · 31-12-2020 06:06PM

It hard to judge the situation or "take sides" based on what little we know but it's easy for Hollywood to painting actors as "difficult" when other actors or even directors get the artistic genius of a troubled mind treatment. #MeToo gave us a glimpse of what has gone on in and what was tolerated in Hollywood.

pixelburp · 31-12-2020 06:13PM

FunLover18 wrote: »

It hard to judge the situation or "take sides" based on what little we know but it's easy for Hollywood to painting actors as "difficult" when other actors or even directors get the artistic genius of a troubled mind treatment. #MeToo gave us a glimpse of what has gone on in and what was tolerated in Hollywood.

I'm trying not to take any sides, but given Fisher seems already keen to burn bridges, his lack of detail about what it is Hanada actually DID beyond the Joss Whedons sacking feels ... suspect. Apparently Gadot has come out supporting Fisher but there's so little to go on, it's hard to read this in Fisher's favour.

The White Wolf · 31-12-2020 07:22PM

I think Fisher has done well to get the results he's gotten from this investigation but his career is in the toilet now.

Allegedly his role has gotten smaller as well in Snyder's JL from what it originally was, and that's saying something given it's been extended to 4 hours.

larchielads · 13-01-2021 07:42AM

Apparently general swannick in man of steele is revealed to be martian man hunter supoosedly the actor himself has said. https://thedirect.com/article/zack-snyder-justice-league-martian-manhunter-scenes-cut

Wonder will they also address the open pod on the scout ship from man of steel as well???

EoinMcLovin · 17-01-2021 06:16PM

https://twitter.com/ErikDavis/status/1350850773203230720?s=19

pixelburp · 18-01-2021 12:59AM

The real shocking piece of news here ... is that Synder's still using Vero; he must have shares lol. Honestly, I'd have presumed it died years ago.

4 hour movie, oof. Guess that'll be two sittings then ha.

Foxtrol · 18-01-2021 03:38AM

pixelburp wrote: »

The real shocking piece of news here ... is that Synder's still using Vero; he must have shares lol. Honestly, I'd have presumed it died years ago.

4 hour movie, oof. Guess that'll be two sittings then ha.

Clearly a sign that the studio are letting him do whatever he wants.

'Nerds, we've given him the exact power you demanded for him to have so whatever comes from it is on you'

kerplun k · 18-01-2021 08:49AM

Foxtrol wrote: »

Clearly a sign that the studio are letting him do whatever he wants.

'Nerds, we've given him the exact power you demanded for him to have so whatever comes from it is on you'

I mostly find when you give someone like Snyder too much power they end up losing sight of themselves. Studio interference and some restrictions isn’t necessarily a bad thing. But in any case, this is it’s own beast, so I won’t complain too much.

pixelburp · 18-01-2021 10:43AM

Foxtrol wrote: »

Clearly a sign that the studio are letting him do whatever he wants.

'Nerds, we've given him the exact power you demanded for him to have so whatever comes from it is on you'

Hadn't it already been announced anyway that this was going to be 4, 1-hour parts? The scope has this has truly chopped and changed way beyond the original "Release the Synder Cut"; wonder what those fanboys thnk of the project now. Presumably salivating, or at least you'd like to think so, having made such a stink in the first instance...

The White Wolf · 18-01-2021 11:06AM

I think just going with the 4 hour film is the right decision, given the film will be popular with international audiences. I can see it's been added to Google Play and Roku as upcoming so it should improve chances against piracy.

And all due respect to Snyder, I don't think episodic format is his game AT ALL.

FunLover18 · 18-01-2021 11:08AM

The White Wolf wrote: »

I think just going with the 4 hour film is the right decision, given the film will be popular with international audiences. I can see it's been added to Google Play and Roku as upcoming so it should improve chances against piracy.

And all due respect to Snyder, I don't think episodic format is his game AT ALL.

Is that a given?

Justice League **Spoilers from post 980 onward**

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Justice League Spoilers from post 980 onward