Covid 19 Part XXIX-85,394 ROI(2,200 deaths) 62,723 NI (1,240 deaths) (26/12) Read OP

brisan · 10-12-2020 10:26PM

polesheep wrote: »

At the end of the day they are defending restrictions, because they are either vulnerable or have someone vulnerable.

If that vulnerable person is in a nursing home do they think the Government through the HSE and NPHET have shown a capability or a willingness to protect them
If you do could you provide some stats to back up your claim
Because the death toll in nursing homes proves otherwise

polesheep · 10-12-2020 10:33PM

brisan wrote: »

If that vulnerable person is in a nursing home do they think the Government through the HSE and NPHET have shown a capability or a willingness to protect them
If you do could you provide some stats to back up your claim
Because the death toll in nursing homes proves otherwise

I've made my position on the nursing/care homes very clear. What happened was borderline criminal.

majcos · 10-12-2020 10:37PM

brisan wrote: »

You do realize that the HSE released people untested from hospital into nursing homes
You do realize that more people contract covid in hospital than people that go into hospital with covid
You do realize that the HSE stopped daily testing in nursing homes
You do realize that there were more clusters in nursing homes than in any other setting
The HSE and NPHET are directly to blame for dozens if not hundreds of deaths
They are not doing a good job ,they have failed miserably on many levels

You do realise that when hospitals released people back to nursing homes in April that those they released were asymptomatic at time of discharge, tests for what was a brand new disease were not readily available and hard to get even for those who were critically ill and that there was about 900 people hospitalised with Covid and 160-170 people in ICU with a very unknown number of more patients to come.

You do realise that the majority of those people hospitalised with Covid, acquired Covid before admission and that’s why they came in with symptoms in the first place. Last statistic I could find showed 8% of hospitalised cases acquired Covid in hospital. It likely has risen but it has not surpassed the number of cases acquired outside hospital.

You do realise that there was never daily testing in nursing homes and nor should there be. This would have overwhelmed laboratories and would not have been a pleasant experience for residents in nursing homes.

You do realise that the majority of clusters have occurred within households/families. Nursing homes account for 3.2% of clusters.

You do realise that Ireland currently has the second lowest 14 day incidence rate of 31 countries collated by European CDC. Ireland and Finland are the best performing countries in the second wave with deaths less than 30% of what they were at peak of first wave. According to worldometer, Ireland has dropped from 10th to 41st in world tables when comparing deaths per million population and has a death rate of 427 per million population versus 927 per million population on the UK.

Although I would absolutely not agree with all the decisions made and I’m sure those making decisions with the benefit of hindsight and more knowledge on Covid would make some different decisions now than they did earlier in the year, I think we also have to acknowledge the good side of the Irish response.

brisan · 10-12-2020 10:39PM

polesheep wrote: »

I've made my position on the nursing/care homes very clear. What happened was borderline criminal.

I agree
Do you agree that a full and open and transparent enquiry into the handling of the nursing home crisis needs to happen
An enquiry where serious and potentially damaging questions need to be asked and proper full answers given
Not Answers like
The information we had at the time suggested ...........
We were not aware of the seriousness of the situation until it was too late
An outside (of the country )independent panel of legal and medical experts need to be given free rein and all parts of the enquiry televised
We will see then how much Tony Holohan and Paul Reid want to be on TV

niallo27 · 10-12-2020 10:40PM

Arghus wrote: »

We had about 1200 cases a day at that stage. That was too high. You don't have the luxury at that point of trying level three and hoping for the best - because if you're wrong, you've got no wriggle room for error at that point and the likelihood of the situation becoming far more out of control is practically certain.

We were no where near capacity, covid and hospital numbers were 20% of what they were in March, we had loads of wiggle room, 2 weeks of level 3 had the numbers nearly halved. Level 3 should have been given a chance.

Martina1991 · 10-12-2020 10:40PM

igCorcaigh wrote: »

This is weird?

https://twitter.com/BNODesk/status/1337129178488057862?s=19

Cross reactivity isn't unusual in immunoassays.
It's up to the requesting clinician to interpret test results in conjunction with any recent vaccination, viral infection or medications a patient is taking.

This is another case study of a couple of Covid positve patients testing positive for HIV. Repeat testing on another platform confirmed they were negative.
https://jcp.bmj.com/content/early/2020/09/08/jclinpath-2020-206942

ElJeffe · 10-12-2020 10:43PM

niallo27 wrote: »

We were no where near capacity, covid and hospital numbers were 20% of what they were in March, we had loads of wiggle room, 2 weeks of level 3 had the numbers nearly halved. Level 3 should have been given a chance.

Level 3 wasn't enough. We don't have the self control as a people for it to work.

niallo27 · 10-12-2020 10:44PM

ElJeffe wrote: »

Level 3 wasn't enough. We don't have the self control as a people for it to work.

What you mean by it wouldn't work, do you mean hospitals would have been overwhelmed.

Arghus · 10-12-2020 10:47PM

Stheno wrote: »

Eh cases started reducing before level five though?

They had started to reduce, but only just. October 18th was the peak of 1283 - that was only three days before level 5 came into force. It would have been impossible to say for certain on October 21st that we were seeing a definite decline.

Foremost in their mind at the time was does level three on it's own actually work. Dublin went to level three before the rest of the country and it's numbers dropped initially - but then started to rise again. So a few days of static or even lower numbers didn't really prove much.

So the jury was out at the overall effectiveness of level 3 at suppressing the virus. You might be able to maintain the numbers or keep the growth static at level 3 - but there seemed to be no clear evidence that level 3 on it's own was enough to actually suppress the virus. There wasn't conclusive evidence at that time, there really wasn't.

Maybe now, a few weeks down the line, it's easier to say that retail - for instance - could have stayed open, possibly. But then you have to take into account if there's a difference between applying level 3 at 200/300 cases a day versus 1000 plus cases a day. What works at one amount mightn't do the job if you multiply that amount by three or four times.

And that decision has to be made quickly. Even if just by leaving it at level three at 1000 plus cases you keep the growth rate static - that still is problematic in and of itself. Even at those daily numbers hospital admissions were rising. There wasn't enough evidence to suggest that level three would reduce those numbers. And you need to come down from four figure case numbers, it isn't sustainable to keep numbers at that level - you have to try to reduce them.

brisan · 10-12-2020 10:48PM

majcos wrote: »

You do realise that when hospitals released people back to nursing homes in April that those they released were asymptomatic at time of discharge, tests for what was a brand new disease were not readily available and hard to get even for those who were critically ill and that there was about 900 people hospitalised with Covid and 160-170 people in ICU with a very unknown number of more patients to come.

You do realise that the majority of those people hospitalised with Covid, acquired Covid before admission and that’s why they came in with symptoms in the first place. Last statistic I could find showed 8% of hospitalised cases acquired Covid in hospital. It likely has risen but it has not surpassed the number of cases acquired outside hospital.

You do realise that there was never daily testing in nursing homes and nor should there be. This would have overwhelmed laboratories and would not have been a pleasant experience for residents in nursing homes.

You do realise that the majority of clusters have occurred within households/families. Nursing homes account for 3.2% of clusters.

You do realise that Ireland currently has the second lowest 14 day incidence rate of 31 countries collated by European CDC. Ireland and Finland are the best performing countries in the second wave with deaths less than 30% of what they were at peak of first wave. According to worldometer, Ireland has dropped from 10th to 41st in world tables when comparing deaths per million population and has a death rate of 427 per million population versus 927 per million population on the UK.

Although I would absolutely not agree with all the decisions made and I’m sure those making decisions with the benefit of hindsight and more knowledge on Covid would make some different decisions now than they did earlier in the year, I think we also have to acknowledge the good side of the Irish response.

Excuses excuses excuses instead of proper action taken
If they could not be tested they should have been isolated ,a first year nurse could have decided that

The bit in bold is not true

We were under capacity for the vast majority of time regarding testing
if patients tested negative then it was only staff that had outside contact that needed to be tested

You are one of the few people who are defending the HSE and NPHET
Even the HSE admitted mistakes were made
They knew from Spain and Italy what was coming down the line and what measures needed to be taken and they did not take them
Low incidence rates are great
Imagine how low they would be if we had protected the elderly and vulnerable in our nursing homes
Do we clap ourselves on the back for only allowing 2000 to die or do we admit we messed up and could have done better

BeefeaterHat · 10-12-2020 10:50PM

ElJeffe wrote: »

Level 3 wasn't enough. We don't have the self control as a people for it to work.

That's just crap. What's the explanation for the outbreaks in the ICU of St Vincent's? Was it a lack of the self control of the Irish people?

normanoffside · 10-12-2020 10:51PM

Arghus wrote: »

Hospital admissions were rising.

Prove me wrong.

Can't prove you wrong because the HSPC stopped giving figures for hospital acquired transmissions a few months ago.

We only know that Covid admissions and discharges just don't add up to the numbers in hospital with covid (they should be in negative numbers by now if it weren't for hospital acquired cases).

Arghus · 10-12-2020 10:52PM

polesheep wrote: »

At the end of the day they are defending restrictions, because they are either vulnerable or have someone vulnerable.

So it follows that you are anti-restrictions because you're not vulnerable or know someone who is vulnerable?

normanoffside · 10-12-2020 10:53PM

BeefeaterHat wrote: »

That's just crap. What's the explanation for the outbreaks in the ICU of St Vincent's? Was it a lack of the self control of the Irish people?

Coming back on that as I mentioned it a few days ago, it seems it was only an outbreak among ICU staff as of now.

BeefeaterHat · 10-12-2020 10:56PM

normanoffside wrote: »

Coming back on that as I mentioned it a few days ago, it seems it was only an outbreak among ICU staff as of now.

For now, but what about the recent outbreaks in Waterford and Limerick hospitals? It's not a recent trend. The HSE and government have dropped the ball on this time and again and yet it's the public who get singled out when anything goes wrong.

10-12-2020 11:03PM

eagle eye wrote: »

Yeah I posted that.
They will be going back on Monday. It'll just be one week for them before Christmas holidays but it'll give them a chance to square everything away and it'll be just like normal going back after Christmas then.

How have you managed to do such a u turn on your very strong opinions?

GazzaL · 10-12-2020 11:08PM

BeefeaterHat wrote: »

That's just crap. What's the explanation for the outbreaks in the ICU of St Vincent's? Was it a lack of the self control of the Irish people?

I heard from a NPHET insider that two auld fellas got takeaway pints in Ballybofey and this led to the outbreaks in St. Vincent's.

10-12-2020 11:10PM

Martina1991 wrote: »

Cross reactivity isn't unusual in immunoassays.
It's up to the requesting clinician to interpret test results in conjunction with any recent vaccination, viral infection or medications a patient is taking.

This is another case study of a couple of Covid positve patients testing positive for HIV. Repeat testing on another platform confirmed they were negative.
https://jcp.bmj.com/content/early/2020/09/08/jclinpath-2020-206942

I believe there was a similar issue in Singapore where people with Dengue Fever were testing positive for COVID.

Jim_Hodge · 10-12-2020 11:13PM

Deleted User wrote: »

How have you managed to do such a u turn on your very strong opinions?

There was a wonder drug about to go in to general usage. It since seems to have been withdrawn though.

Necro · 10-12-2020 11:15PM

GazzaL wrote: »

When will we see the statistics on people who haven't been diagnosed or treated for non-COVID illnesses? This, combined with the social and economic terrorism of anti-WHO, anti-ECDC, anti-science lockdowns, is a national scandal. In a decade or two, we'll be talking about NPHET in the same breath as the likes of Magdalene Laundries and paedo priests. The pro-lockdown crowd who support these fascists are a disgrace.

Mod:

Threadbanned

majcos · 10-12-2020 11:19PM

brisan wrote: »

Excuses excuses excuses instead of proper action taken
If they could not be tested they should have been isolated ,a first year nurse could have decided that

The bit in bold is not true

We were under capacity for the vast majority of time regarding testing
if patients tested negative then it was only staff that had outside contact that needed to be tested

You are one of the few people who are defending the HSE and NPHET
Even the HSE admitted mistakes were made
They knew from Spain and Italy what was coming down the line and what measures needed to be taken and they did not take them
Low incidence rates are great
Imagine how low they would be if we had protected the elderly and vulnerable in our nursing homes
Do we clap ourselves on the back for only allowing 2000 to die or do we admit we messed up and could have done better

Isolation would have been done if it was possible. A first year nurse would also know that there is a serious lack of isolation rooms in nursing homes and in hospitals. Isolation rooms are always in short supply so that’s far easier said than done.

Please share your statistics if you can show me figures of the number of hospitalised cases of Covid that were acquired in hospital versus came in with Covid from other settings rather than just telling me it is not true with no evidence.

There was not capacity for screening/testing initially in April when people were discharged back to nursing homes. There was not even capacity to test all patients admitted to hospitals and often long delays in the early stages I am referring to in getting results back for seriously ill patients. There were shortages of analyzers, chemicals/enzymes, etc. Testing was started in NVRL and then rolled out to other hospitals with samples being sent to Germany as well. Capacity for testing was overwhelmed which is why many who were symptomatic in community were never tested.

I have very clearly admitted in my post that mistakes were made which you just ignored but that does not mean that I cannot also acknowledge some of the achievements in Ireland. Ireland has also been praised in international press so I am not alone in recognising this.

mandrake04 · 10-12-2020 11:21PM

Martina1991 wrote: »

Cross reactivity isn't unusual in immunoassays.
It's up to the requesting clinician to interpret test results in conjunction with any recent vaccination, viral infection or medications a patient is taking.

This is another case study of a couple of Covid positve patients testing positive for HIV. Repeat testing on another platform confirmed they were negative.
https://jcp.bmj.com/content/early/2020/09/08/jclinpath-2020-206942

Very true Martina

Stuff like Biotin which is a vitamin is well known to affect assays in different ways, although sometimes people themselves can present a lot differently to other people when testing this would be more of a genetic variance and it can often lead to obscure puzzling results. It’s often a mine field.

The problem with a few people testing positive for HIV is it’s bad press for vaccines when trying to convince people they are safe, safer scrapping it.

bb1234567 · 10-12-2020 11:22PM

https://twitter.com/risklayer/status/1337159532246654979

When I see stats like this that there is almost 1 million people in Germany self isolating right now I feel like I've been so untouched by the pandemic so far, I havn't had a single interaction or symptoms that seriously makes me think I got it and I hardly know anybody who's confirmed as infected, lots of friends of friends and people I know of but nobody in my circle of colleagues friends or family

majcos · 10-12-2020 11:27PM

BeefeaterHat wrote: »

That's just crap. What's the explanation for the outbreaks in the ICU of St Vincent's? Was it a lack of the self control of the Irish people?

The outbreak in ICU in St. Vincent’s posted about on 8th of December whose ICU numbers for Covid positive patients went from

4 on 5/12
3 on 6/12
3 on 7/12
3 on 8/12
3 on 9/12

Note: I see post above suggesting outbreak was among staff and not patients.

klose · 10-12-2020 11:52PM

How the numbers and data and portrayed to the everyday person is all a bit shoddy isn't it? Backlog cases just piled in with today's numbers instead of added to the previous numbers and adjusting accordingly, deaths announced but not specifically when, you'd assume 15 died yesterday but that's not the actual case.
Imo nursing home & hospital numbers should be announced completely separately. My mother for example just takes everything at face value and gets in a panic, when I tell her more details she calms a bit, it's really not the full picture we are being presented daily.

Furthermore, if they just throw a blanket over the country again in January and LoCk It DoWn, I'll flip, a lot of counties (which is how this 5 tier system was intended to be used for) are flying it, just cause people in Northern Ireland who have a **** show and bringing it into border counties and nursing homes and hospitals can't keep a lid of spread shouldnt mean the entire country has to pay the price.

nocoverart · 10-12-2020 11:53PM

People finally calling out the gutter poster, good to Eagle Eye (I mean see)

BeefeaterHat · 10-12-2020 11:53PM

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40188417.html

Clap for your carers lads. This is what you have running your health service. These are the pieces of **** you're defending every time you shift blame on to the public. Between this and the student nurses being used as free labour, I wouldn't blame every doctor and nurse in the country if they fecked off to the UK or Canada

niallo27 · 10-12-2020 11:55PM

bb1234567 wrote: »

https://twitter.com/risklayer/status/1337159532246654979

When I see stats like this that there is almost 1 million people in Germany self isolating right now I feel like I've been so untouched by the pandemic so far, I havn't had a single interaction or symptoms that seriously makes me think I got it and I hardly know anybody who's confirmed as infected, lots of friends of friends and people I know of but nobody in my circle of colleagues friends or family

While still a huge number 764K is a long way from a million. Germany has a huge population so this figure is over 1 in a 100, so must people would not know anyone self isolating either.

bodhrandude · 11-12-2020 12:55AM

This has been billed by the Irish Post as Ireland's first ever Covid-free pub. The pub in Aghamore in County Mayo claims to have rapid testing kits for any would-be customer for the price of 10 Euro, after 15 minutes if you test negative you can sit in the pub all day. How long do you think this pub is going to stay open for.

https://www.irishpost.com/news/irelands-first-ever-covid-free-pub-set-to-open-in-mayo-199682

bb1234567 · 11-12-2020 12:57AM

Some interesting stats about the North released - deaths have dropped for the first time two months according to NISRA.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-55185587

Taking that figure, and the 474 who died in care homes, it means care home residents account for just over two-fifths of all Covid-19 related deaths (42.1%).

People aged 75 and over account for around two-thirds of all Covid-19 related deaths (65.2%).

So not dramatically different to us in terms of the people affected although the big difference with the North is that their excess deaths are very high at 950 per million which is among the highest reported in Western world, while ours are looking to end several thousand below normal by January.

Nisra found 1,790 excess deaths have been registered in the past 35 weeks.

Covid 19 Part XXIX-85,394 ROI(2,200 deaths) 62,723 NI (1,240 deaths) (26/12) Read OP

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