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The Dominance of Dublin GAA *Mod warning post#1*

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Comments

  • #4412
    Enquiring
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,116 ✭✭✭Enquiring


    ooter wrote: »
    Mcentee said on TSG the other night that Meath have 40 GDO's.

    Do you know the difference between the meaning of had and have?


  • #4413
    Enquiring
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,116 ✭✭✭Enquiring


    dunnerc wrote: »
    All of them

    Name some, I'll be happy to sort it out for you.


  • #4414
    Enquiring
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,116 ✭✭✭Enquiring


    Rolo2010 wrote: »
    Meath were in receipt of 6% of the games development fund since at least 2017. I can't imagine it has changed much since then.

    https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2019/0614/1055359-dublin-funding/

    It was 2018.

    Are you going to ignore the near 2 decades before 2018?


  • #4415
    Rolo2010
    Closed Accounts Posts: 207 ✭✭Rolo2010


    Enquiring wrote: »
    Are you going to ignore the near 2 decades before 2018?

    No. But I am going to ignore you.


  • #4416
    Enquiring
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,116 ✭✭✭Enquiring


    Bambi wrote: »
    I havent claimed anything chief, you're the one making claims and now trying to shift the burden of proof and the goalposts


    not very convincing behaviour tbh

    quick recap:

    As promised, I'm back with some account information for you! In 2015, Dublin GAA spent 2,117,237 on wages and salaries. In 2016, Dublin GAA spent 2,193,299 on wages and salaries. That's a hefty amount of money in anyone's book.


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  • #4417
    Enquiring
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,116 ✭✭✭Enquiring


    Rolo2010 wrote: »
    No. But I am going to ignore you.

    Fair enough. Burying your heads in the sand is not going to work for much longer, however. The momentum is there now. The appetite for change and the anger that this was allowed to develop is growing.


  • #4418
    Rolo2010
    Closed Accounts Posts: 207 ✭✭Rolo2010


    Enquiring wrote: »
    Fair enough. Burying your heads in the sand is not going to work for much longer, however. The momentum is there now. The appetite for change and the anger that this was allowed to develop is growing.

    Changed my mind. One more response. I'm actually from Donegal and I'm tired of folks from Meath or Kildare blaming their problems on Dublin.


  • #4419
    Jaden
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,393 ✭✭✭Jaden


    Enquiring wrote: »
    This all doesn't really sound like it's just a primary school operation to me. It's a multi layered system that has had huge benefits. The professional coaches had impacts on clubs right the way through, from the kids all the way up. Let's get a real example of this. Ballymun Kickams received the services of James Glancy. He was coaching the clubs minor team when he spotted 2 17 year olds called Dean Rock and James McCarthy. McCarthy in particular was very thin. Glancy assisted in getting gym equipment set up and watched over the transformation of McCarthy's physique. These were 2 talented players but were brought on again with the assistance of a development officer. Just one example again to show the help the money made. I don't believe Rock and McCarthy were still in primary school at 17 years of age.

    So the paid GDO of a Dublin Club (who was also an IC player for Leitrim at the time) helped develop two underage players who went on to become Dublin Senior Intercounty players.

    Fella doing his job shocker. If you have one Iota of evidence he was working with seniors either at club or county level, please do post it here.

    James also organized the Nursery every Saturday morning in Kevin's pitch, where he'd spend a couple of hours showing 8 year olds how to kick a ball, and 5 year olds how to carry a ball on a wooden spoon to improve hand-eye co-ordination.

    Incidentally, Deano and Jamsie helped out there to quite often.


  • #4420
    gaffer91
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,348 ✭✭✭gaffer91


    kilns wrote: »
    did I say that? It is a problem that Dublin do it but dont be so naiive that the likes of Kerry can`t do it to them too and yet you want to preserve the competition by making Dublin weaker and leaving the weaker counties weak, so that a small few counties can reap the reward. Very fair

    You didn't say it but it was implicit in your argument. I don't have anything against Dublin specifically. If any other county enjoyed these unfair advantages I'd be the first person to criticise them instead.

    But Dublin are the only team that enjoy this unique combination of advantages so they are the team that should be split.
    kilns wrote: »
    What other sources are you talking about?

    Sponsorship mostly, but also the money received from the government/ Irish sports council.
    The Lost Sheep wrote: »
    Unfair advantages isnt true. They get more development funding as the biggest number of school age kids etc are in the county. They get more sponsorship because of combination of a successful team and they are in the biggest market in country. Neither of those are unfair.

    Unfair advantages is exactly true- no-one else has such a huge population, excess funding, plays finals at home etc.

    As has been pointed out dozens of times, not just in general but to you specifically- the Games Development funding for Dublin was excessive compared to any other county by whatever metric you want to use- per head of population, per registered player, per club, per registered underage player etc. Actually try to retain this simple piece of information this time. I'm starting to think you are trolling.

    The population advantage is grounds for a split, not more funding anyway.


  • #4421
    Rolo2010
    Closed Accounts Posts: 207 ✭✭Rolo2010


    gaffer91 wrote: »
    You didn't say it but it was implicit in your argument. I don't have anything against Dublin specifically. If any other county enjoyed these unfair advantages I'd be the first person to criticise them instead.

    But Dublin are the only team that enjoy this unique combination of advantages so they are the team that should be split.



    Sponsorship mostly, but also the money received from the government/ Irish sports council.



    Unfair advantages is exactly true- no-one else has such a huge population, excess funding, plays finals at home etc.

    As has been pointed out dozens of times, not just in general but to you specifically- the Games Development funding for Dublin was excessive compared to any other county by whatever metric you want to use- per head of population, per registered player, per club, per registered underage player etc. Actually try to retain this simple piece of information this time. I'm starting to think you are trolling.

    The population advantage is grounds for a split, not more funding anyway.

    A split will result in more funding since the other county will no longer be in receipt of sponsorship and they will have to expand the game to more kids without the same funding from Dublin. Either way, more money will go into Dublin.


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  • #4422
    The Lost Sheep
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭The Lost Sheep


    gaffer91 wrote: »
    You didn't say it but it was implicit in your argument. I don't have anything against Dublin specifically. If any other county enjoyed these unfair advantages I'd be the first person to criticise them instead.

    But Dublin are the only team that enjoy this unique combination of advantages so they are the team that should be split
    every county cant have the same population. there will always be some with much larger populations. Dublin shouldnt be split because theyre bigger. Having a larger population to pick from isnt an unfair advantage. Its simply an advantage. Kerry have a much larger football playing population than Clare, Limerick, Tipp and Waterford. They also have far more funding for football than these counties. That doesnt mean anything unfair is happening. Its the same with Dublin. Same in Connacht with Mayo compared to Leitrim etc etc.
    Unfair advantages is exactly true- no-one else has such a huge population, excess funding, plays finals at home etc.
    Splitting Dublin would only see more money put into Dublin as there would have to be extensive changes to structures and everything else to set up county sides.


  • #4423
    gaffer91
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,348 ✭✭✭gaffer91


    Rolo2010 wrote: »
    A split will result in more funding since the other county will no longer be in receipt of sponsorship and they will have to expand the game to more kids without the same funding from Dublin. Either way, more money will go into Dublin.

    Not at all. Club structure and schools will be the same, just the inter-county teams will be split. Could be done quite painlessly.

    If Dublin were underfunded relative to other counties it would take literally decades for the moving average of funding to equalise given the decades of overfunding Dublin have enjoyed to date.


  • #4424
    gaffer91
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,348 ✭✭✭gaffer91


    The Lost Sheep wrote: »
    every county cant have the same population. there will always be some with much larger populations. Dublin shouldnt be split because theyre bigger. Having a larger population to pick from isnt an unfair advantage. Its simply an advantage. Kerry have a much larger football playing population than Clare, Limerick, Tipp and Waterford. They also have far more funding for football than these counties. That doesnt mean anything unfair is happening. Its the same with Dublin. Same in Connacht with Mayo compared to Leitrim etc etc.

    Splitting Dublin would only see more money put into Dublin as there would have to be extensive changes to structures and everything else to set up county sides.

    Same answer as previous. Some variation is fine but when county is such a statistical outlier that they are at least four standard deviations from the average and double the size of the next largest (also an outlier), then yes, it becomes an unfair advantage.

    There wouldn't be extensive changes to structures. See previous post. Not only is splitting Dublin the best move for the GAA, it could be done very cheaply too. And no, there is no need to build new stadiums in the short term.


  • #4425
    Rolo2010
    Closed Accounts Posts: 207 ✭✭Rolo2010


    gaffer91 wrote: »
    Not at all. Club structure and schools will be the same, just the inter-county teams will be split. Could be done quite painlessly.

    If Dublin were underfunded relative to other counties it would take literally decades for the moving average of funding to equalise given the decades of overfunding Dublin have enjoyed to date.

    So Dublin clubs will still play together but they will have different intercounty teams. Not going to happen and there won't be any buy in from Dublin fans.


  • #4426
    gaffer91
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,348 ✭✭✭gaffer91


    Rolo2010 wrote: »
    So Dublin clubs will still play together but they will have different intercounty teams. Not going to happen and there won't be any buy in from Dublin fans.

    Either it happens or the inter-county game dies. The current dominance is now forever. I think there would be a lot of buy-in from Dublin fans eventually, although there may be some opposition before it happens.


  • #4427
    Rolo2010
    Closed Accounts Posts: 207 ✭✭Rolo2010


    gaffer91 wrote: »
    Either it happens or the inter-county game dies. The current dominance is now forever. I think there would be a lot of buy-in from Dublin fans eventually, although there may be some opposition before it happens.

    Based on what? That hasn't been my experience from talking to a lot of Dublin fans over the last few years while I've been living there. Splitting Dublin will not improve intercounty football in the weakest counties and I find it interesting that the strongest proponents for a split too often aren't from these counties.


  • #4428
    The Lost Sheep
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭The Lost Sheep


    gaffer91 wrote: »
    Same answer as previous. Some variation is fine but when county is such a statistical outlier that they are at least four standard deviations from the average and double the size of the next largest (also an outlier), then yes, it becomes an unfair advantage.

    There wouldn't be extensive changes to structures. See previous post. Not only is splitting Dublin the best move for the GAA, it could be done very cheaply too. And no, there is no need to build new stadiums in the short term.
    It couldnt be done cheaply. To create all the structures to allow a county team and then run it, sponsors and everything else.
    There is always statistical outliers in sports. Green Bay Packers have no right to still be in the NFL considering the population of town they play in/area theyre in.
    But theyre there.


  • #4429
    gaffer91
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,348 ✭✭✭gaffer91


    The Lost Sheep wrote: »
    It couldnt be done cheaply. To create all the structures to allow a county team and then run it, sponsors and everything else.
    There is always statistical outliers in sports. Green Bay Packers have no right to still be in the NFL considering the population of town they play in/area theyre in.
    But theyre there.

    It could be done cheaply. Only inter-county is affected. It saves money in the long run as without splitting Dublin the game is destroyed.

    Transfer are allowed in NFL. And Dublin are uniquely advantaged in other ways as we have seen.

    Could you please acknowledge the point I made in bold in post #4424? I don't want to have to explain that to you again in future or for you to come back with the same incorrect argument again.


  • #4430
    gaffer91
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,348 ✭✭✭gaffer91


    Rolo2010 wrote: »
    Based on what? That hasn't been my experience from talking to a lot of Dublin fans over the last few years while I've been living there. Splitting Dublin will not improve intercounty football in the weakest counties and I find it interesting that the strongest proponents for a split too often aren't from these counties.

    Based on my experience from talking to some Dublin fans and also how it is possible to create support for teams (like the provinces in rugby) and how derby matches in any sport are hotly anticipated in most sports.

    See my previous posts for how splitting Dublin helps the weaker counties ( and every other county including Dublin).


  • #4431
    briany
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,171 ✭✭✭✭briany


    On splitting Dublin GAA...

    So, the argument is that they are too dominant, and so to make the playing field more even, Dublin football should be split into North & South, or perhaps Fingal, City, South etc.?

    Now, if we take that argument on board, then we should also consider that if the split teams were average, and struggled to win a Leinster championship, never mind an all-Ireland, then there would be inevitable calls to unify Dublin GAA once again.

    We now know how much success leads to calls of splitting up Dublin football, but after how much mediocrity would everyone be OK with these teams being folded back into one? It certainly wouldn't seem fair that there would be resistance to such a reunification, given that the splitting of Dublin football was promoted as well-meaning artifice designed to save the Leinster championship, the All-Ireland, and football in general, but then, if the quality players dried up, ended up with four weak-to-average teams which weren't allowed to compete on the same all-county basis that everyone else was. The fairness thing goes both ways on this.

    Dublin has been the most populous county in Ireland for a pretty long time now, but it's only since they've started winning titles that calls to split the county have really gained momentum. So, it's not really about population, but if we want to still say it's about population then we have to ask what the cutoff is for dividing a county? Is it a new unit of population called a 'Dublin', or something more scientific like, say, 500,000?

    Really, the less messy way to go about all this is to look at how the GAA apportion funding, and devise plans for equitable division of the money.


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  • #4432
    The Lost Sheep
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭The Lost Sheep


    gaffer91 wrote: »
    It could be done cheaply. Only inter-county is affected. It saves money in the long run as without splitting Dublin the game is destroyed.

    Transfer are allowed in NFL. And Dublin are uniquely advantaged in other ways as we have seen.

    Could you please acknowledge the point I made in bold in post #4424? I don't want to have to explain that to you again in future or for you to come back with the same incorrect argument again.
    It couldnt. You keep saying the inter county game would be destroyed. The inter county game in multiple counties would have been destroyed years ago based on level of success, comparisons to what Kerry, Dublin have done and its therefore ridiculous.
    gaffer91 wrote: »
    Based on my experience from talking to some Dublin fans and also how it is possible to create support for teams (like the provinces in rugby) and how derby matches in any sport are hotly anticipated in most sports.

    See my previous posts for how splitting Dublin helps the weaker counties ( and every other county including Dublin).
    This is the second or third time you have brought up the provincial rugby teams. There has never been a split Dublin side playing gaelic football. There has always been provincial rugby teams. There has been an interpro series for over 70 years. There was extensive support for the clubs prior to the provinces playing far more games. As the best players from the clubs played more for the provinces the crowds migrated to the provincial teams. Up until the start of the european cup in 1995 the provinces played 3 games a year apart from the years a touring side came to play ala 78 when munster beat new zealand and even then the touring sides didnt play all the provinces some years. the best players played club rugby. the support moved to the provincial teams as the best players were playing together and the provinces were playing more often. its not the same.


  • #4433
    Rolo2010
    Closed Accounts Posts: 207 ✭✭Rolo2010


    gaffer91 wrote: »
    Based on my experience from talking to some Dublin fans and also how it is possible to create support for teams (like the provinces in rugby) and how derby matches in any sport are hotly anticipated in most sports.

    See my previous posts for how splitting Dublin helps the weaker counties ( and every other county including Dublin).

    Most Dublin fans have no interest in splitting the county. This hope of a North v South derby is a long shot. It sort of exists between the LOI clubs but they have existed for nearly a century or more. A split only helps the counties in the chasing pack. It will do nothing to improve football in Sligo and Leitrim who will still have to beat Mayo/Roscommon/Galway to win Connacht and potentially face Dublin in a QF. Both would still likely suffer a big loss at the hands of the Dublin teams.

    I would only support a split if Dublin GAA themselves backed it. Forcing it on Dublin doesn't sit well with me and goes against the ethos of the GAA.


  • #4434
    gaffer91
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,348 ✭✭✭gaffer91


    The Lost Sheep wrote: »
    It couldnt. You keep saying the inter county game would be destroyed. The inter county game in multiple counties would have been destroyed years ago based on level of success, comparisons to what Kerry, Dublin have done and its therefore ridiculous.

    This is the second or third time you have brought up the provincial rugby teams. There has never been a split Dublin side playing gaelic football. There has always been provincial rugby teams. There has been an interpro series for over 70 years. There was extensive support for the clubs prior to the provinces playing far more games. As the best players from the clubs played more for the provinces the crowds migrated to the provincial teams. Up until the start of the european cup in 1995 the provinces played 3 games a year apart from the years a touring side came to play ala 78 when munster beat new zealand and even then the touring sides didnt play all the provinces some years. the best players played club rugby. the support moved to the provincial teams as the best players were playing together and the provinces were playing more often. its not the same.

    Yet again, the point about rugby is how support bases can rapidly develop. THe same could happen for Dublin divisional sides. It would still be geogrpahically and club based.

    No success in either code has come from a platform of unfair advantages like Dublin's current success- that's the different with history. Winning fairly- fine. Winning unfairly, as Dublin are- big problem.

    And before we go any further- could you please acknowledge the point I made in bold in post #4424? I don't want to have to explain that to you again in future or for you to come back with the same incorrect argument again.


  • #4435
    gaffer91
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,348 ✭✭✭gaffer91


    Rolo2010 wrote: »
    Most Dublin fans have no interest in splitting the county. This hope of a North v South derby is a long shot. It sort of exists between the LOI clubs but they have exsisted for nearly a century or more. A split only helps the counties in the chasing pack. It will do nothing to improve football in Sligo and Leitrim who will still have to beat Mayo/Roscommon/Galway to win Connacht and potentially face Dublin in a QF. Both would still likely suffer a big loss at the hands of the Dublin teams.

    I would only support a split if Dublin GAA themselves backed it. Forcing it on Dublin doesn't sit well with me and goes against the ethos of the GAA.

    Right now there is opposition, sure, but it has to be done or the game dies.

    Again, see my previous posts for how splitting Dublin helps Sligo and Leitrim.


  • #4436
    Enquiring
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,116 ✭✭✭Enquiring


    Jaden wrote: »
    So the paid GDO of a Dublin Club (who was also an IC player for Leitrim at the time) helped develop two underage players who went on to become Dublin Senior Intercounty players.

    Fella doing his job shocker. If you have one Iota of evidence he was working with seniors either at club or county level, please do post it here.

    James also organized the Nursery every Saturday morning in Kevin's pitch, where he'd spend a couple of hours showing 8 year olds how to kick a ball, and 5 year olds how to carry a ball on a wooden spoon to improve hand-eye co-ordination.

    Incidentally, Deano and Jamsie helped out there to quite often.

    Just one example that a GDO was not just for primary school kids.


  • #4437
    Enquiring
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,116 ✭✭✭Enquiring


    briany wrote: »
    On splitting Dublin GAA...

    So, the argument is that they are too dominant, and so to make the playing field more even, Dublin football should be split into North & South, or perhaps Fingal, City, South etc.?

    Now, if we take that argument on board, then we should also consider that if the split teams were average, and struggled to win a Leinster championship, never mind an all-Ireland, then there would be inevitable calls to unify Dublin GAA once again.

    We now know how much success leads to calls of splitting up Dublin football, but after how much mediocrity would everyone be OK with these teams being folded back into one? It certainly wouldn't seem fair that there would be resistance to such a reunification, given that the splitting of Dublin football was promoted as well-meaning artifice designed to save the Leinster championship, the All-Ireland, and football in general, but then, if the quality players dried up, ended up with four weak-to-average teams which weren't allowed to compete on the same all-county basis that everyone else was. The fairness thing goes both ways on this.

    Dublin has been the most populous county in Ireland for a pretty long time now, but it's only since they've started winning titles that calls to split the county have really gained momentum. So, it's not really about population, but if we want to still say it's about population then we have to ask what the cutoff is for dividing a county? Is it a new unit of population called a 'Dublin', or something more scientific like, say, 500,000?

    Really, the less messy way to go about all this is to look at how the GAA apportion funding, and devise plans for equitable division of the money.

    The calls for splitting Dublin are happening because of the professional set up organised off the back of millions of euro provided to them by all of us.


  • #4438
    Rolo2010
    Closed Accounts Posts: 207 ✭✭Rolo2010


    gaffer91 wrote: »
    Right now there is opposition, sure, but it has to be done or the game dies.

    Again, see my previous posts for how splitting Dublin helps Sligo and Leitrim.

    It doesn't help them. Sligo and Leitrim need funding and structural reform. The GAA should be sticking a GDA in every Sligo town club if they want to help grow the game there.


  • #4439
    Enquiring
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,116 ✭✭✭Enquiring


    Dublin have received about 25 million euro in games development funding, the next highest is Cork with less than 2 million. I've asked before but I'll ask again, is Dublin more than 12.5 times the population of Cork?


  • #4440
    awaywithyou
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,342 ✭✭✭awaywithyou


    Splitting Dublin talk is ridiculous... this team wont be around forever... When Cluxton moves on there will be a dip in performances... his kickouts are good.. but its his presence thats hugely influential for Dublin... then u have Fenton, KIlkenny and McCarthy... i dont care how big the pick is in Dublin... i seriously doubt if there kind will ever be seen again... so splittin Dublin is nonsense... not their fault the other teams are ****e.... only for tyrone in the noughties kerry would have 6-in-a-row... dublin dont have a team like tyrone to come agianst... Mayo dont count... coming up just short is a habit of a lifetime for them...

    The Gaa should distribute the funding to each county evenly... as in 100euro or whatever per registered player.. that can b done straight away and they should do no more...


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  • #4441
    Jaden
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,393 ✭✭✭Jaden


    Enquiring wrote: »
    Just one example that a GDO was not just for primary school kids.

    Where is the idea that GDOs are, or ever were, just for primary school kids? The remit is underage, not U12s.

    Here is a posting for a role in Monaghan:
    https://www.monaghangaa.ie/2020/02/job-vacancy-games-development-officer-position-available/

    "Have the ability and skills to work with children and youths." It's fairly clear there.

    GDOs were specifically prohibited from assisting seniors in any way. Do you have evidence that this occurred?


This discussion has been closed.
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