Schools closed until February? (part 3)

the kelt · 10-12-2020 8:50am

Deleted User wrote: »

What workplaces who were essential throughout the pandemic have had extra time off given at Christmas?

Genuine question, what other workplace do people sit in a room with 30 other people not socially distant and not wearing masks?

Is there actually another workplace in that scenario?

Genuine question btw.

Boggles · 10-12-2020 8:51am

Deleted User wrote: »

Trying to put words into peoples mouths again. I never said anything against teachers, I said are others not experiencing the same challenges?

I clearly didn't, I all ready pointed out to you now twice, I have very little interest in peoples feelings. (I do but in this instance it's not the most important thing).

You are trying to introduce whataboutery into the discussion.

But if you like if we reduce the spread of the virus into the vulnerable population that helps other essential services.

KerryConnor · 10-12-2020 8:54am

Yes that was the point in ireland too. Make people a lot more at ease if they could avoid contacts more than 5 or 6 days before meeting grandparents as that's the length of time it takes majority of symptoms to appear.

meeeeh wrote: »

Infections in Germany are going up. Merkel is desperate to tighten up social distancing rules, the last time state governments went against her and refused stricter rules. This is not thank you to essential services but a plea to limit the Infections. Schools could stay closed in January.

10-12-2020 8:58am

Boggles wrote: »

I clearly didn't, I all ready pointed out to you now twice, I have very little interest in peoples feelings. (I do but in this instance it's not the most important thing).

You are trying to introduce whataboutery into the discussion.

But if you like if we reduce the spread of the virus into the vulnerable population that helps other essential services.

You may have seen my initial response on this topic

Is everything in Germany so much better than Ireland that even through their current case level is 4x ours we believe we should be currently doing the exact same thing? When we were at 300 cases per hundred thousand kids were not supposed to visit their grandparents. Now we are at 75 and its a different assessment.

We are in a much better situation which is why such measures are not as necessary here as in Germany for example as the risk is so much lower, currently.

It was you who brought up fatigue and anxiety among teachers, and all I did is point out that there are other groups who equally face the same challenges.

the kelt · 10-12-2020 9:01am

KerryConnor wrote: »

Yes that was the point in ireland too. Make people a lot more at ease if they could avoid contacts more than 5 or 6 days before meeting grandparents as that's the length of time it takes majority of symptoms to appear.

Agreed but you have to understand the mindset of many on here.

What you are saying makes sense in an overall context of Coronavirus in this country and fight against it but because teachers would benefit from such a move anything as such that helps the fight against the virus should be dismissed.

Some on here would rail against the vaccine rollout if it meant teachers got an extra day off!

Lillyfae · 10-12-2020 9:04am

the kelt wrote: »

Agreed but you have to understand the mindset of many on here.

What you are saying makes sense in an overall context of Coronavirus in this country and fight against it but because teachers would benefit from such a move anything as such that helps the fight against the virus should be dismissed.

Some on here would rail against the vaccine rollout if it meant teachers got an extra day off!

It has NOTHING to do with teachers getting a day off. It has everything to do with families being under enough pressure, without having to reschedule things that they have going on to facilitate it.

Boggles · 10-12-2020 9:10am

Deleted User wrote: »

We are in a much better situation which is why such measures are not as necessary here as in Germany for example as the risk is so much lower, currently.

Nope, not a reason not to do it. The reason we have been as successful has we have been is we look to the future and not base decisions on the current.

Right now there is a "campaign" to keep your contacts to a minimum before Christmas, completely undermined by the fact that their is a million+ indoors where the highest risk of infection is.

Don't dare go near Mary's house but the kids get to be contacts of 100s of others.

A lot of people will say with some justification, that is fúcking daft.

Deleted User wrote: »

It was you who brought up fatigue and anxiety among teachers, and all I did is point out that there are other groups who equally face the same challenges.

3rd time.

I dismissed fatigue as the reason to do it.

the kelt · 10-12-2020 9:11am

Lillyfae wrote: »

It has NOTHING to do with teachers getting a day off. It has everything to do with families being under enough pressure, without having to reschedule things that they have going on to facilitate it.

Hmmmm

Everyone in the entire country has had to reschedule and deal with pressure for the last 9 months because of a pandemic.

Yet the only thing that seems to get you bent out of shape is those situations where teachers might get a day off!

meeeeh · 10-12-2020 9:13am

KerryConnor wrote: »

Yes that was the point in ireland too. Make people a lot more at ease if they could avoid contacts more than 5 or 6 days before meeting grandparents as that's the length of time it takes majority of symptoms to appear.

Go and compare the numbers in Ireland and Germany and then we can discuss what should be done. Their death rate is at the moment higher than in spring.

The comparisons with countries are fine but I not when they are made on basis of one sentence you read on social media.

10-12-2020 9:17am

Boggles wrote: »

Nope, not a reason not to do it. The reason we have been as successful has we have been is we look to the future and not base decisions on the current.

Right now there is a "campaign" to keep your contacts to a minimum before Christmas, completely undermined by the fact that their is a million+ indoors where the highest risk of infection is.

Don't dare go near Mary's house but the kids get to be contacts of 100s of others.

A lot of people will say with some justification, that is fúcking daft.

3rd time.

I dismissed fatigue as the reason to do it.

Fair enough, I read your post as in addition to fatigue and anxiety as reasons not excluding but accept on re reading that’s not what you were saying.

Lillyfae · 10-12-2020 9:18am

the kelt wrote: »

Hmmmm

Everyone in the entire country has had to reschedule and deal with pressure for the last 9 months because of a pandemic.

Yet the only thing that seems to get you bent out of shape is those situations where teachers might get a day off!

Ok, picture this. A single parent with 2 school children, who works in a supermarket while their children are at school. Possibly from another country, so no family around to help out. They will have to take vacation or unpaid leave, or worse, risk losing their job because they have a zero hour contract. Another example. 2 nurses, flat out since March, rosters planned well in advance. Same situation, except a quarter of their colleagues are out on Covid related leave. What do you think these people are supposed to do?

lulublue22 · 10-12-2020 9:18am

meeeeh wrote: »

Go and compare the numbers in Ireland and Germany and then we can discuss what should be done. Their death rate is at the moment higher than in spring.

So we should only act when we are at the point were the death rate is extremely high - higher than the first wave rather than working to prevent a surge in Jan ?

It makes no odds to me the last 2 days are my fav anyhow great atmosphere and craic. However if the gov were serious about reducing / minimising contacts prior to xmas than it does make sense.

the kelt · 10-12-2020 9:23am

Lillyfae wrote: »

Ok, picture this. A single parent with 2 school children, who works in a supermarket while their children are at school. Possibly from another country, so no family around to help out. They will have to take vacation or unpaid leave. Another example. 2 nurses, flat out since March, rosters planned well in advance. Same situation, except a quarter of their colleagues are out on Covid related leave. What do you think these people are supposed to do?

What they done before earlier in the year but only for 2 or 3 days rather than months!

We're talking about extending the school holidays by a couple of days to help curb the virus in the run up to Christmas the one time of the year where people will be visiting elderly relatives etc.

You know the logical thing, reducing by a few days a situation where people are in a room with 30 unmasked other humans all talking laughing etc. Ye know the stuff Tony H keeps telling us not to do!

Maybe they should insist schools are open and teachers have to attend but pupils dont, then im sure there are many here who would think its a great idea!

SusanC10 · 10-12-2020 9:24am

Lillyfae wrote: »

Ok, picture this. A single parent with 2 school children, who works in a supermarket while their children are at school. Possibly from another country, so no family around to help out. They will have to take vacation or unpaid leave, or worse, risk losing their job because they have a zero hour contract. Another example. 2 nurses, flat out since March, rosters planned well in advance. Same situation, except a quarter of their colleagues are out on Covid related leave. What do you think these people are supposed to do?

What do these examples do if their child develops Covid-like symptoms or is a close contact ? Or has a stomach bug or anything else that means that they can't go to school?

the kelt · 10-12-2020 9:25am

meeeeh wrote: »

Go and compare the numbers in Ireland and Germany and then we can discuss what should be done. Their death rate is at the moment higher than in spring.

The comparisons with countries are fine but I not when they are made on basis of one sentence you read on social media.

So we should only do something reactive rather than proactive in the fight against the virus??

Take a few days off now, no cant do that! Lets wait till more people are dying then we might do it.

Yep, makes sense!

Lillyfae · 10-12-2020 9:30am

SusanC10 wrote: »

What do these examples do if their child develops Covid-like symptoms or is a close contact ? Or has a stomach bug or anything else that means that they can't go to school?

In the case of the nurses, you would think that there is leave for special cases such as this- caring for family during illness- I'm not familiar with public sector contracts but I believe it's there. In the case of the supermarket worker, this has happened to them already and they used up the good graces of their employer.

In the beginning of all this, everyone was in the same boat re: it was a bit of a mess. Now that the pandemic is being managed better, it's not expected that large sections of society should be forced to stay home all at the same time.

SusanC10 · 10-12-2020 9:32am

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/no-choirs-no-indoor-music-no-parents-schools-get-advice-on-celebrating-christmas-1.4432776

Does anyone have the link to this advice for Schools ?
I can't seem to find it on the DES website.

JimmyVik · 10-12-2020 9:33am

the kelt wrote: »

What they done before earlier in the year but only for 2 or 3 days rather than months!

We're talking about extending the school holidays by a couple of days to help curb the virus in the run up to Christmas the one time of the year where people will be visiting elderly relatives etc.

You know the logical thing, reducing by a few days a situation where people are in a room with 30 unmasked other humans all talking laughing etc. Ye know the stuff Tony H keeps telling us not to do!

Maybe they should insist schools are open and teachers have to attend but pupils dont, then im sure there are many here who would think its a great idea!

Makes perfect sense. If back when moving the holidays was first mentioned, people could see past teachers might get a day off, the whole country could have got on board with a plan like have the holidays two weeks before Christmas day instead of the 2 weeks after Christmas day.

Would have been plenty of time to plan. Contingencies could also have been put in place for people who werent flexible. But no. People reacted in their usual fashion and now here we are.

wirelessdude01 · 10-12-2020 9:35am

SusanC10 wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/no-choirs-no-indoor-music-no-parents-schools-get-advice-on-celebrating-christmas-1.4432776

Does anyone have the link to this advice for Schools ?
I can't seem to find it on the DES website.

I find it frightening that anyone in education had to be reminded not to have Christmas celebrations/concerts.

khalessi · 10-12-2020 9:39am

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

I find it frightening that anyone in education had to be reminded not to have Christmas celebrations/concerts.

One class out of each year group in my school asked to perform one song for video, teachers of my year group refused due to risks and other advice. Kids school advised kids not to hand out cards this year in school instead make a card and stick it up in class.

SusanC10 · 10-12-2020 9:39am

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

I find it frightening that anyone in education had to be reminded not to have Christmas celebrations/concerts.

They are still singing in our Primary School which is why I want to find the link.

wirelessdude01 · 10-12-2020 9:44am

khalessi wrote: »

One class out of each year group in my school asked to perform one song for video, teachers of my year group refused due to risks and other advice. Kids school advised kids not to hand out cards this year in school instead make a card and stick it up in class.

My school sent out a note to parents advising no Christmas cards in school this year. What's happening instead is that the cards are being handed out at the gate and in the carpark. I'd told the principal that this would happen and that maybe the teachers if they were willing could hand them out in class after a quarantine period but was told that wasn't acceptable to them as it put more work on the teachers.

wirelessdude01 · 10-12-2020 9:46am

SusanC10 wrote: »

They are still singing in our Primary School which is why I want to find the link.

Think the no signing is about whole year/school kinda stuff where bubbles would be broken. This impacts massively in our school where the Christmas concert was a massive deal every year.

meeeeh · 10-12-2020 9:47am

lulublue22 wrote: »

So we should only act when we are at the point were the death rate is extremely high - higher than the first wave rather than working to prevent a surge in Jan ?

It makes no odds to me the last 2 days are my fav anyhow great atmosphere and craic. However if the gov were serious about reducing / minimising contacts prior to xmas than it does make sense.

No we shouldn't imply that early holidays in Germany are some reward fir hard work or some act of generosity. Unless all lockdown measures are considered reward for hard work. Merkel considers them necessary to curb what is the most severe spread of virus Germany had through the whole of pandemic.

Ireland is not there.

Personally I don't care when kids are off although I do think extra days should be flagged well in advance unless it is absolutely necessary to act quickly. However don't use urgent pandemic measures as proof how unfair things are in Ireland.

JimmyVik · 10-12-2020 9:58am

Tony and co have been saying for some time now that we are headed for another lockdown in Jan. Saying that our numbers will go up. Saying that we are at the low figure now and could have 1000 cases a day in January.

Pretty grim predictions.

Imagine if you could take a million people or even half that out of very close contact situations for two weeks before this predicted glut of new close contacts. That would be worth doing. Dont wait for the numbers to increase. Use a simple tool to attack them in advance. Move the holidays forward. Keep enough teachers working during the holidays to babysit the kids of parents who cant mind them. Too late for that obviously now, but I think it would have been worth doing.

Boggles · 10-12-2020 9:58am

meeeeh wrote: »

Personally I don't care when kids are off although I do think extra days should be flagged well in advance

How advanced do you think is appropriate?

It's been flagged by public health for months that the reproductive number could double or worse during Christmas.

It was touted as an idea nearly a month ago by the unions.

England brought it in yesterday, Merkel is urging the states to do it now.

meeeeh · 10-12-2020 10:02am

the kelt wrote: »

So we should only do something reactive rather than proactive in the fight against the virus??

Take a few days off now, no cant do that! Lets wait till more people are dying then we might do it.

Yep, makes sense!

We should do everything that's necessary but no more. The best thing to fight the virus would be to bolt everyone into their home and not let them out for the whole holiday period. However that would also cause damage in other ways.

The measures are only done if their benefits outweigh damage or hassle they cause. However if you want your grandparents safe then don't visit them. No matter how many precautions you take once you increase contact you will increase chances of transmission. That's how you will say lives not with two extra days off school.

the kelt · 10-12-2020 10:07am

meeeeh wrote: »

We should do everything that's necessary but no more. The best thing to fight the virus would be to bolt everyone into their home and not let them out for the whole holiday period. However that would also cause damage in other ways.

The measures are only done if their benefits outweigh damage or hassle they cause. However if you want your grandparents safe then don't visit them. No matter how many precautions you take once you increase contact you will increase chances of transmission. That's how you will say lives not with two extra days off school.

We shouldnt do more, NPHET keep saying opposite though so when it comes to schools bare minimum is enough?

So 2 extra days off wouldnt also possibly save lives as an extra measure?

Dont visit Granny but sit in a room with 30 odd others all unmasked laughing, talking etc cos thats ok!

meeeeh · 10-12-2020 10:08am

Boggles wrote: »

How advanced do you think is appropriate?

It's been flagged by public health for months that the reproductive number could double or worse during Christmas.

It was touted as an idea nearly a month ago by the unions.

England brought it in yesterday, Merkel is urging the states to do it now.

I don't it's necessary with our level of transmission. Do you think kids will be sitting at home those two extra days? The numbers show everyone clocked out of level 5 before it finished, what makes you think kids will be kept at home all the time. More likely they will be minded by their grandparents while the parents work.

meeeeh · 10-12-2020 10:09am

the kelt wrote: »

So 2 extra days off wouldnt also possibly save lives as an extra measure?

Dont visit Granny but sit in a room with 30 odd others all unmasked laughing, talking etc cos thats ok!

The 30 odd others won't die of Covid but granny could. If you think your granny is in such a danger then it's up to you to stay away.

Boggles · 10-12-2020 10:13am

meeeeh wrote: »

The numbers show everyone clocked out of level 5 before it finished

Do they?

Anyway, we are going round in circles, like I said the national campaign about keeping your contacts to a minimum on the run up to Christmas is undermined by having 1 million + people indoors, I passed a garage outside a school yesterday, looked like a Taylor Swift concert.

It was a sound idea when it was floated a month ago, it's a sound idea by the Brits and it's a sound idea by the Germans.

But no, because we want to stick it to those feckless geography teachers, no fúcking way are we having it here.

the kelt · 10-12-2020 10:14am

meeeeh wrote: »

The 30 odd others won't die of Covid but granny could. If you think your granny is in such a danger then it's up to you to stay away.

So 2 extra days off wouldnt also possibly save lives as an extra measure?

meeeeh · 10-12-2020 10:20am

Boggles wrote: »

Do they?

Anyway, we are going round in circles, like I said the national campaign about keeping your contacts to a minimum on the run up to Christmas is undermined by having 1 million + people indoors, I passed a garage outside a school yesterday, looked like a Taylor Swift concert.

It was a sound idea when it was floated a month ago, it's a sound idea by the Brits and it's a sound idea by the Germans.

But no, because we want to stick it to those feckless geography teachers, no fúcking way are we having it here.

Nephet said they do and that infections stopped falling.

What makes it sound idea. The fact that you agree with it? What are the numbers that support that. What is the actual logic behind. I don't think anyone is saying 7 days is long enough quarantine without test. So what is the benefit except it gives you some false sense of security that is not based on any actual scientific advice.

meeeeh · 10-12-2020 10:21am

the kelt wrote: »

So 2 extra days off wouldnt also possibly save lives as an extra measure?

Tell me how many lives would it save. Or is possibly maybe if there is full moon and sun is in third quarter we will save lives.

wirelessdude01 · 10-12-2020 10:25am

Maybe those saying taking holidays a few days or indeed a day earlier should contact the relevant people in Britain and Germany and tell them they are making a mistake. Maybe ask them for the numbers and such like.

the kelt · 10-12-2020 10:25am

meeeeh wrote: »

Tell me how many lives would it save. Or is possibly maybe if there is full moon and sun is in third quarter we will save lives.

Ive no idea.

Do you think it would save any?

NPHET keep telling us reducing contacts, especially contacts with others unmasked, indoors will save lives.

Are they wrong?

Or is it a case that saving lives and reducing case numbers is all ok unless teachers get a day off then whatever measure that may actually save lives should be dismissed?

meeeeh · 10-12-2020 10:26am

the kelt wrote: »

Ive no idea.

Do you think it would save any?

NPHET keep telling us reducing contacts, especially contacts with others unmasked, indoors will save lives.

Are they wrong?

Or is it a case that saving lives and reducing case numbers is all ok unless teachers get a day off then whatever measure that may actually save lives should be dismissed?

Nphet are not telling us to close schools early. Are they wrong?

lulublue22 · 10-12-2020 10:27am

meeeeh wrote: »

No we shouldn't imply that early holidays in Germany are some reward fir hard work or some act of generosity. Unless all lockdown measures are considered reward for hard work. Merkel considers them necessary to curb what is the most severe spread of virus Germany had through the whole of pandemic.

Ireland is not there.

Personally I don't care when kids are off although I do think extra days should be flagged well in advance unless it is absolutely necessary to act quickly. However don't use urgent pandemic measures as proof how unfair things are in Ireland.

Was there an implication that this was a reward for hard work or an act if generosity ? I must have missed that I thought it was to reduce contacts to allow families to celebrate with elderly / vulnerable family members in a safe manner as I indicated in my post. My bad.

Lillyfae · 10-12-2020 10:31am

lulublue22 wrote: »

Was there an implication that this was a reward for hard work or an act if generosity ? I must have missed that I thought it was to reduce contacts to allow families to celebrate with elderly / vulnerable family members in a safe manner as I indicated in my post. My bad.

That was what was mentioned in the first sound byte I believe. Acknowledge all the hard work etc etc. The next day, following the avalanche of criticism, there was a mention of reducing contacts before christmas.

mirrorwall14 · 10-12-2020 10:31am

SusanC10 wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/no-choirs-no-indoor-music-no-parents-schools-get-advice-on-celebrating-christmas-1.4432776

Does anyone have the link to this advice for Schools ?
I can't seem to find it on the DES website.

It’s the fecking 10th of September. DES ‘are’ to issue. Meaning they haven’t yet. Why not? It’s a bit fecking late tbh!

meeeeh · 10-12-2020 10:31am

lulublue22 wrote: »

Was there an implication that this was a reward for hard work or an act if generosity ? I must have missed that I thought it was to reduce contacts to allow families to celebrate with elderly / vulnerable family members in a safe manner as I indicated in my post. My bad.

Wirelessdude stated that German essential services were given off extra time at Christmas. They weren't they are trying to implement stricter lockdown measures. That's what I was replying to.

eviltwin · 10-12-2020 10:32am

How realistic is it at this stage to close the schools early? I'm working and finishing up early means one of us has to stay home and all the organising that goes with that.

JimmyVik · 10-12-2020 10:33am

eviltwin wrote: »

How realistic is it at this stage to close the schools early? I'm working and finishing up early means one of us has to stay home and all the organising that goes with that.

I would say its too late.
You need to plan these things in advance, so both schools and the general population can plan around it. Its too late to plan now.

Boggles · 10-12-2020 10:34am

meeeeh wrote: »

What is the actual logic behind. I don't think anyone is saying 7 days is long enough quarantine without test. So what is the benefit except it gives you some false sense of security that is not based on any actual scientific advice.

The median incubation period for COVID‐19 is four to five days. Most symptomatic people experience symptoms within two to seven days after exposure

.

JimmyVik · 10-12-2020 10:35am

Boggles wrote: »

Do they?

Anyway, we are going round in circles, like I said the national campaign about keeping your contacts to a minimum on the run up to Christmas is undermined by having 1 million + people indoors, I passed a garage outside a school yesterday, looked like a Taylor Swift concert.

It was a sound idea when it was floated a month ago, it's a sound idea by the Brits and it's a sound idea by the Germans.

But no, because we want to stick it to those feckless geography teachers, no fúcking way are we having it here.

Ive said it before in this thread. I know several people who have said if its safe for 30 kids to sit in a room all day every day, its safe to bring those kids anywhere else.

wirelessdude01 · 10-12-2020 10:35am

meeeeh wrote: »

Wirelessdude stated that German essential services were given off extra time at Christmas. They weren't they are trying to implement stricter lockdown measures. That's what I was replying to.

Well we've been told often enough in this country that schools and education is an essential service. Before anyone jumps on me I do think we are essential but we are o on called that depending in the narrative that is being espoused in that day.

Boggles · 10-12-2020 10:36am

eviltwin wrote: »

How realistic is it at this stage to close the schools early? I'm working and finishing up early means one of us has to stay home and all the organising that goes with that.

It's not going to happen, the time to plan for it was nearly a month ago when it was floated.

the kelt · 10-12-2020 10:37am

meeeeh wrote: »

Nphet are not telling us to close schools early. Are they wrong?

Yeah quite possibly. If as below reducing contacts indoors with others not wearing masks etc is advisable and saves lives then its stand to reason that situation is the same in schools. It also stands to reason when you reduce the length of time people are in those situations of contacts the more lives you save.

Surely 2 days off to help curb spread would be an advantage? No?

Perhaps make the teachers go into the schools anyway so they dont get a day off might make it a bit more palatable for you and others?

Again

Do you think it would save any?

NPHET keep telling us reducing contacts, especially contacts with others unmasked, indoors will save lives.

Are they wrong?

Or is it a case that saving lives and reducing case numbers is all ok unless teachers get a day off then whatever measure that may actually save lives should be dismissed?

meeeeh · 10-12-2020 10:37am

eviltwin wrote: »

How realistic is it at this stage to close the schools early? I'm working and finishing up early means one of us has to stay home and all the organising that goes with that.

Mine would have to spend at least some time with their grandmother. I can't process the wages and similar with them running around. It's not an issue because she comes over everyday for dinner anyway but if people think time before Christmas is delightful holiday time for everybody they are very much mistaken. A lot of people will be very busy before that and forcing them to quickly find who will mind their kids is an issue.

wirelessdude01 · 10-12-2020 10:37am

eviltwin wrote: »

How realistic is it at this stage to close the schools early? I'm working and finishing up early means one of us has to stay home and all the organising that goes with that.

Well other countries are doing/suggesting it so where there is a will there is a way.

It was suggested about a month ago in this country but shot down.

Schools closed until February? (part 3)

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