Ex taking my son for christmas, no say in the matter.

Princess Calla · 03-12-2020 03:33PM

Nola Old-fashioned Pound wrote: »

Wise words! And I can see why Princess Callala is encouraging the same! To say that my parents’ split was acrimonious is an understatement. They went the nuclear approach. Invariably, Christmas was like a test of loyalty. One parent would be miffed and resentful at the choice. Children should be never made to feel like their are choosing between. There were so many opportunities over the years to make peace, but missed at every turn. Take every opportunity you can to maintain the peace with your ex, even if it means being friendly with the ex’s fiancé. I wouldn’t wish the alternative on anybody! The scars from going legal can tear a family apart

You're coming at it from a "child's" point of view, rather than two parents who need to put their child first.

As other posters have said, the child should know nothing about these "behind the scenes" conversations.

I am very sorry that you went through that experience though. Christmas is not the time of "joy" for alot of people.

osarusan · 03-12-2020 03:43PM

Neyite wrote: »

I think that this year you have to suck it up, travel and go early in the morning to do Santa with your son.

Anything else hurts him. And his feelings are the only ones that matter here.

I genuinely don't see why the OP should be the one to 'suck it up', rather than the mother.

And I don't see why 'anything else hurts him' either. We know nothing of the child's preferences for the day, if they have any.

If roles were to be reversed - child stays with father, mother and fiance come for breakfast and Santa, then leave again, how is that any more or less hurtful than the other way round.

OP has every right to be royally pissed off with the mother deciding this stuff without discussing it with him in any way, and I absolutely think he should be fighting his corner sooner rather than later.

Tork · 03-12-2020 03:46PM

I don't think anybody is disputing that he needs to fight his corner. The question is, how he goes about it.

ztoical · 03-12-2020 04:04PM

Tork wrote: »

I don't think anybody is disputing that he needs to fight his corner. The question is, how he goes about it.

To be honest the OP needs to come back and clarify what other arrangements they have for the child. He's only mentioned Christmas but is there a formal/informal access arrangement. If up until now its all been super casual that's great for the child but moving forward for the adults it might be best to come to something more formal - Every other weekend, X weeks for summer holidays, birthdays, family events like weddings, cousins birthdays etc etc It sounds like the Ex lives on the other side of the country so does the OP go collect or has she been coming over to his with the child? Does the child have their own room at the OP's house? Are they on sports team that could impact on weekend visits? The Op needs to think outside Christmas and more big picture for whats best for the child.

Honestly I'd be ringing her back saying look I won't come for Xmas, I'll come the following day and take child back to mine for 2 days for second Xmas at mine then drop him back and when I come back we should sit down face to face and hash out an arrangement we can both agree to.

Maintenance and access are two separate issues but out of interest OP is there a maintenance arrangement or has that also been more informal? The set up for the last 9 years has suited you both but things are going to change so you have to make sure you are covered on all fronts. I wouldn't go in guns blazing, reading into every thing as negative, maybe toy show was a subtle dig at you or maybe it was just inconsiderate. You said the relationship has been good till now so assume the best but be ready for the worse. Having a clear arrangement will make all 3 adults in the room more at ease and child should hopefully not notice much difference.

garrettod · 03-12-2020 04:10PM

Try starting by asking your child what they would like to do...don't try and influence the decision, be honest and let your child be the same. If the child says that they don't want to go, you need to meet with your former partner and your child, and have a three way conversation - with both of you respecting the child's wishes

9db3xj7z41fs5u · 03-12-2020 04:12PM

Princess Calla wrote: »

Well I stand by the comment.

Whether the op like it or not, this man is going to be in his life potentially forever.

Birthdays, confirmation, school graduation, college graduation all the big things, but he's also there for all daily boring life stuff too.

I don't understand why the op wouldn't move on from a nod....from the time it was announced the son was moving in with the fiance the op should have made an effort to get to know the fiance better. It's not about gaining a new best friend, it's about knowing who your children are living with.

So I don't accept the argument "oh the fiance didn't make an effort either" the fiance doesn't really need to make an effort it's not his son moving in with another man.

I think that when if the fiancé loves his ex, then putting the woman’s happiness, and with that I mean the child’s happiness as a priority. It the child suffers, then then the fiancé suffers and the fiancé’s ex suffers. I do think that it is in the interest of the ex’s fiancé to have good relations with the OP

I agree that it is unfortunate that the OP has to make the effort. But life is not ideal. And the situation will not resolve itself. The OP can decide to try to take the path that will mitigate the damage and try to develop a relationship with the ex’s fiancé. He is doing this solely for the benefit of his son. If the ex’s fiancé remains stand-offish, then the OP will have to decide his approach from there.

ztoical · 03-12-2020 04:22PM

garrettod wrote: »

Try starting by asking your child what they would like to do...don't try and influence the decision, be honest and let your child be the same. If the child says that they don't want to go, you need to meet with your former partner and your child, and have a three way conversation - with both of you respecting the child's wishes

I don't think that's fair to put that on the child at that age. They aren't a teenager, they are 9 and it would make them feel like they have to pick a favorite. Also it sounds like the live the majority of their time with their mum so that puts a lot of pressure on them to pick mammy. I do think they are old enough to have some input but they shouldn't be the one making the choice. They need an arrangement between the adults and when the child is older they can voice their opinion on how they want to divide the time.

Tork · 03-12-2020 04:32PM

ztoical wrote: »

It sounds like the Ex lives on the other side of the country so does the OP go collect or has she been coming over to his with the child?

Just on this, the OP said they have moved 30-40 minutes drive away.

Neyite · 03-12-2020 04:38PM

osarusan wrote: »

I genuinely don't see why the OP should be the one to 'suck it up', rather than the mother.

And I don't see why 'anything else hurts him' either. We know nothing of the child's preferences for the day, if they have any.

If roles were to be reversed - child stays with father, mother and fiance come for breakfast and Santa, then leave again, how is that any more or less hurtful than the other way round.

OP has every right to be royally pissed off with the mother deciding this stuff without discussing it with him in any way, and I absolutely think he should be fighting his corner sooner rather than later.

She won't go to OP's house this year and OP has not been invited to hers. How can you make the mother suck it up in this instance?

It's very possible that the child's preference is to have Christmas morning like every other one he's had in living memory - that of his mum and dad being there while he opens presents from Santa. If so, the only way the OP can do that this year is to go the morning of Christmas. The only difference is that there's no sleepover the night before.

Or he could get a solicitor, put in an application for a formalised arrangement, but I imagine that will not get resolved this side of Christmas. So if he says no to the ex, the only ones missing out here is his child, and him.

But, you say if the roles were reversed - well, why not? The ex might come to regret this manoeuvre, given that instead of all three of them having Christmas day together every year, she's manouvered herself into an every-second-Christmas arrangement. She would also be subject to the same arrangement every second Christmas. And she might not be keen to drive to OPs at the crack of dawn next year to see her son open his presents at OP's house next year...

Neyite · 03-12-2020 04:40PM

Tork wrote: »

Just on this, the OP said they have moved 30-40 minutes drive away.

That's not overly onerous, particularly if you have your own car, which it sounds like the OP does.

I do a 40-50 min commute twice a day, 5 days a week.

Princess Calla · 03-12-2020 04:43PM

Neyite wrote: »

That's not overly onerous, particularly if you have your own car, which it sounds like the OP does.

I do a 40-50 min commute twice a day, 5 days a week.

No one poster thought other side of country not county, tork was correcting them

Tork · 03-12-2020 04:47PM

Princess Calla wrote: »

No one poster thought other side of country not county, tork was correcting them

Yep. I was correcting it just in case other people picked up the mistake and ran with it - sometimes small mistakes like these grow legs on boards. A 30-40 minute drive isn't onerous by any means.

piplip87 · 03-12-2020 04:47PM

Put the shoe on the other foot. Imagine you got engaged to a girl who had a kid, and she went over to his house every Christmas eve to spend the night and she has slept with him during Christmas before.

You need to say that you will take him on st Stephen's day and that Santa has left some of his presents in yours.

Your ex has moved on, it's time you and your kid get some traditions where it is just you two.

osarusan · 03-12-2020 04:53PM

Neyite wrote: »

She won't go to OP's house this year and OP has not been invited to hers. How can you make the mother suck it up in this instance?

OP says to the mother that the child will spend Christmas and if she wants to be part of it she and her fiance can come for breakfast and Santa and the leave, end of story.

Just as she did.

Neyite wrote: »

It's very possible that the child's preference is to have Christmas morning like every other one he's had in living memory - that of his mum and dad being there while he opens presents from Santa. If so, the only way the OP can do that this year is to go the morning of Christmas. The only difference is that there's no sleepover the night before.

Or the mother and fiance come to the OP's place on the morning of Christmas, and it all happens just the same.

As others have said, these shared Christmases are likely coming to an end, and both the OP and the mother should have dealt with this much better and much earlier. You have to wonder how long ago she reached her decision, but still waited for contact from the OP to lay down her law.

What is needed is for the OP and mother to work this out and come to a compromise that is acceptable to both of them. I think everybody agrees on that. It should have been done a good while ago.

But for the mother to make a unilateral and frankly, pretty f**king selfish move to just decide that this is how it will be this Christmas, take it leave it, is not something the OP should lie down for.

I'm surprised to see that most posters are taking the 'ah well, what can you do about this Christmas' position - he can, and in my opinion, should, say that she absolutely should have discussed this with him, and that he is not happy about it at all.

Neyite · 03-12-2020 05:00PM

I'm fully in agreement that what the mother did this year is a dick move. Never said it wasn't. But OP gains nothing if he goes in guns blazing three weeks before Christmas on his ex. She's not being reasonable but him also being unreasonable won't resolve this and might actually result in him not being able to see his son on the day at all.

He needs to formalise access. If he can do that this side of Christmas, fair play to him.

ztoical · 03-12-2020 05:01PM

Tork wrote: »

Just on this, the OP said they have moved 30-40 minutes drive away.

Sorry I misread the OP as country not county

Lost.1. wrote: »

So now I'm in a situation where if I want to see my son on Christmas day, I have to drive to other side of the county

osarusan · 03-12-2020 05:05PM

I actually think it would be better not to go on Christmas day itself, but instead have a 'second Christmas day' at his place a day or two later, when they can spend a good couple of days together by themselves.

ztoical · 03-12-2020 05:06PM

Neyite wrote: »

I'm fully in agreement that what the mother did this year is a dick move. Never said it wasn't. But OP gains nothing if he goes in guns blazing three weeks before Christmas on his ex. She's not being reasonable but him also being unreasonable won't resolve this and might actually result in him not being able to see his son on the day at all.

He needs to formalise access. If he can do that this side of Christmas, fair play to him.

+1 Maybe she was being a dick, maybe she was put under pressure from the new fiance to have Xmas with him, maybe she just didn't think. The OP does need to think, they've had a good relationship with the mother up to now, would be a shame for the kid to loose out because both parents got their backs up. Start with a level head and try and arrange something both sides can be happy with and keep a record of everything OP, just in case it does go to court and becomes ugly.

Don't jump off the handle and rush to attack just yet. Start with a chat and you'll know soon enough by the course of that conversation what her mindset is.

Tork · 03-12-2020 05:07PM

Unless something has turned really sour in the relationship between the OP and his ex, some sort of compromise surely can be reached about Christmas. Has she said how long he can spend in the house on Christmas morning? Are there arrangements in place for having him on some of the other days? Ultimately, it's the son that the OP wants to have all to himself. Even if he manages to improve his relationship with the fiancé, they're never going to be best buddies.

seenitall · 03-12-2020 05:07PM

The way I’m reading the timeline, it very well may be that the ex cheated in her new relationship by sleeping with the OP at Christmas 2018 (it depends on when exactly this relationship started but it sounds to me at least in 2018 if not 2017 - as per OP, she got engaged “over the last 3 years”). So this kind of dynamic needs to be taken into account, meaning some other emotions rather than well-being of the child could be running high here. The ex may feel guilt and try to be over-compensating the (possibly unsuspecting) fiance by going distant and non-cooperative on the OP now. Meanwhile the OP is left feeling dismayed with the unilateral changes.

Tread carefully, OP. I would suggest making as few waves as possible now, but then in the New Year, start with a clean slate, take any big emotions out of the situation (although I understand the loneliness and the disappointment you are feeling, but you will have to accept some changes now), and sit down with your ex for a friendly chat about a fairer way to do Christmas from now on. Let her know how much the Toy Show means to you for you and your child’s bonding, too. If she wants what’s best for her son, she will have to be reconsidering her attitude as well. Easy does it, though. Not everything needs to be sorted in one such conversation, especially when the time pressure of Christmas 2020 is behind everyone.

There is always room for going the formal route if these talks don’t bear fruit. But you would save yourself so much money and stress if you go easy for the time being, and give your ex time to disentangle how she felt about you in the past from what you mean to her son, and start seeing you as a proper partner in co-parenting and nothing else. This can take a bit more time for her, but at least you are aware of the problem now. Just don’t go the legal route til all other avenues are exhausted, as it would be a great pity on your child’s behalf if the your mutual ability to come to arrangements between yourselves fell completely through at this point.

screamer · 03-12-2020 05:13PM

OP if the shoe was on the other foot and you were denying her christmas as usual with her child you'd be every kind of rotten fecker under the sun, but mothers seem to get a free pass when they treat dads like sh:te. Double and unfair standards. I think you'll have to a accept it this year, but you need to discuss next year's arrangements now so that there's clarity around the arrangements. I dont buy into this BS of her building a new life etc, your son is hers and yours and that'll never change. Its your son who is caught in the middle. i'd also look into what rights you have going forward you dont want her playing happy families with her new husband whilst your access to your son is dictated by her.

Princess Calla · 03-12-2020 05:37PM

screamer wrote: »

OP if the shoe was on the other foot and you were denying her christmas as usual with her child you'd be every kind of rotten fecker under the sun, but mothers seem to get a free pass when they treat dads like sh:te. Double and unfair standards. I think you'll have to a accept it this year, but you need to discuss next year's arrangements now .

I really don't think it's a male vs female divide on this issue.

The usual plans were they stayed in each other's houses and had a quickie in the process.

Long-term this was never going to work.

Will anyone admit they'd be happy if their fiance left them on Christmas Eve to spend it with their ex.....I know I wouldn't stand for it, especially to add insult to injury they had moved into my home during the year.

The primary carer whether that's the mum or dad will always have the final say unless there's a court order in place. The other parent can't or definitely shouldn't drag the child away.

As I've said before it has worked in my family that the father stayed over with the mum and her new partner, (20 yrs later that father has a great relationship with the kids that came from the "mum and new partner" relationship along with his own. I don't know if that's something the op could suggest with the ex.

cannotlogin · 03-12-2020 06:05PM

Hey OP, totally agree with you that it's lousy but there are some positives, She still recognises you need to see your son and has involved you in terms of the invite to spend the morning with them. I don't think the fact it's her fiance's house can be helped, it's now your son's home.

From a purely practical point of view, what's the alternative solution. It would be somewhat unusual to include you in the full day given the change in her circumstances. She can't really leave fiance to spend it with you and I can see why she may want her son to celebrate it with them this year.

It's your son that it of importance here. Nothing else. Join them in the morning and make it as much fun as possible for them. Don't show any of your frustrations, it's an adult issue and he shouldn't be aware of an animosity between his parents.

Ask what days you can have him and make them days as enjoyable with the two of you.

When the dust settles, ask in January what is the plan for next year and assume that he will be with you next year and they can call for breakfast.

If that doesn't work, then consider formalizing it in the courts.

If absolutely sucks, that you can't spend the day with your son. 100% but unfortunately things have changed and the priority should be two parents who put their son first.

Big Bag of Chips · 03-12-2020 10:33PM

The arrangement had to change at some point. She thinks now is the right time. I understand people saying she shouldn't have unilaterally made the decision, but, would you have agreed to it if she asked you? If so, there's no problem. If not, what would have been your alternative suggestion? It is no longer appropriate for her to stay overnight in your house.

This is the first year things are different. But you need to talk to her about future years. It has to be shared. If you're a good, reliable dad then she can have no reason to deny you keeping him in your house for Christmas morning next year.

She has now moved on and is starting her own family which your son is part of. Staying over in your house, altogether is no longer an option. So this is the year it changes.

It might however be worth talking to her about splitting the gift giving between you both. Does your son still believe in Santa? Would it be possible to have some of his presents at his mam's house that morning and also for Santa to have left a few at yours? I'm not suggesting you double up and buy him loads but that what you do buy is spread out between both houses.

This year things are changing. But use the opportunity to make plans for next year and each year after that.

DonnaDarko09 · 04-12-2020 12:13AM

My partner and his ex had the exact same set up for Xmas. He would spend the night at hers or vice versa to watch the kids open their presents Xmas morning.
When we moved in together, she stayed at ours because I didn’t want to rock any arrangements in place before I came on the scene.
This stopped the following year after I found inappropriate messages between them.

She had moved on now and it sounds like her new partner may be uncomfortable with your previous arrangement, which is fair enough given how you ended up in bed with your ex on previous xmas’s.

Could you discuss alternating having your son for Xmas eve/day going forward?

Yellow pack crisps · 04-12-2020 09:21AM

My boy pretty is much the same age as yours OP and my ex and I have the same set up as you had. Spend Xmas day together despite the fact if any of us have current partners. One day I’ve to accept this may come to an end, either on my side or hers. Maybe the fact she didn’t discuss it with you first was because she was afraid to as it’s always been one way and breaking that is always very difficult. She didn’t communicate very well, that’s one percent true. But with kids it’s already better to find a compromise, either together or even just yourself. Accept that Xmas or any special occasion or event has changed for good now, even if things don’t work out with her current partner it’s probably time to establish some rules and boundaries that keep the relationship between all of you healthy. It Sucks but that is what you have to accept when a relationship that involves a child ends. With regards to the ex, he is offering to let you come to the house Xmas day, that’s an olive branch you don’t want to ignore, it could be the foundation of good shared relationship between all of you or the start of hostilities, I know which one I’d prefer. What’s always best for the child is that everyone gets along. If your kid sees that he will be happy and open. If not he will start to pick and choose what to tell you based on your feelings, that’s not good. You’ve both had a good run of it, more than most. I’d go with the flow this Xmas and then start a conversation in the Jew year about going forward. You’re used to one tradition, time to start thinking about new traditions. Best of luck.

Ann84 · 04-12-2020 12:43PM

I think it’s time to start splitting key occasions, we do every second Christmas, New Years, birthday and Easter (whoever has Christmas, the other has New Years) - that works for us but every situation is different... mediation was a good avenue to hammer out the details of what works best... but this is the reality of coparenting. What you guys were doing for the last number of years is just too close for me - boundaries are important to avoid confusion and heartache for all involved including your son.

Katgurl · 04-12-2020 03:45PM

Tork wrote: »

Unless something has turned really sour in the relationship between the OP and his ex, some sort of compromise surely can be reached about Christmas. Has she said how long he can spend in the house on Christmas morning? Are there arrangements in place for having him on some of the other days? Ultimately, it's the son that the OP wants to have all to himself. Even if he manages to improve his relationship with the fiancé, they're never going to be best buddies.

I think she is offering a big compromise and he should grab it with both hands. It is admirable her fiance is happy to have her ex stay in their house and for Christmas morning.

He should not take this gesture for granted; the two men don't know each other but will now be connected through the son so he should do his best to respond cordially.

Like a poster further down the page, I did my utmost to be helpful, friendly, patient and inclusive to my partner's ex for the sake of their children but then she began messaging inappropriately, playing games to cause trouble between us so that was the end of that. Op is not trying to break them up but he should take this opportunity now to make the best of the new situation.

It would be fantastic if they all got along while respecting boundaries and having consideration for each other.

leggo · 05-12-2020 09:32AM

Yeah I very much read it as she cheated on her fiancee with the OP, I think that was clear when you do the maths, and the OP mentioned it for a reason. And that was totally reckless of both of you OP, but particularly you who didn't want to pursue it. You made yourself a red line issue in the future when she inevitably found someone she wanted to settle down with for the sake of a few nights of fun: now you weren't just a guy she was with years ago, you're a guy she occasionally slept and cheated on partners with, and that put her in the position of having to either lie to future partners for the sake of some lad who didn't want to be with her...or be truthful and prioritise the important relationship over you, making you an extremely sensitive subject.

This is the thing I think you need to accept here to get anywhere OP: responsibility. I feel for you, don't get me wrong. But also what did you think was going to happen? Surely this scenario struck you as possible over the years? Did you think she was going to prioritise her relationship with you over potential partners until your son turned 18? There was always a chance she was going to meet someone, want to start a family with them, have a settled Christmas and that that would become preferable (for her AND your child, in her eyes) to your ad hoc Christmas setup.

Also when you sleep with someone, there are consequences: some consequences are good, like your son, but also then there's an emotional side that needs to be dealt with. The times you two slept together weren't just a 'free hit'. She cheated on her current partner with you. That's going to have a knock-on effect, were you not expecting that? Even the way you speak about her new relationship and partner isn't respecting that it's way more important to her than you are. To be blunt: he's the important man in her life now, you're the spare tire she has to carry around for another few years. And that situation became inevitable when you said you didn't want to give it a go with her.

Again OP, I feel for you but there's a whiff of naivety at best and total entitlement at worst coming from you. The things happening now are consequences of both decisions you've made and foreseeable scenarios you've failed to plan for. I'm not saying this to admonish you, I'm saying it because acceptance of that responsibility might change this situation. If you go into victim mode, see this as an attack and go at her all guns blazing...you're really only going to make things worse in a situation you've very little control over. Whereas if you accept that you've effed up a little bit and this is a result of that, go to her with a willingness to find a resolution that is fair on you but also respects her new situation as it is, you're much more likely to be able to work out something. It won't be everything you want, but again that's the life you chose by having a child with someone you've decided several times you don't want to be with. You've actually been fairly lucky to get to this point without having to deal with consequences, so be proactive and do what you can now then be happy with what you get instead of lamenting the compromises you will have to make.

Big Bag of Chips · 05-12-2020 09:59AM

To be blunt: he's the important man in her life now, you're the spare tire she has to carry around for another few years

That's the crux of it, OP. Look, relationships break down, things don't work out and often a child, or children, have been created in the meantime.

You and your ex are not a couple. You are two separate people who have a child together. As a result, lots of things you do with your child will be separate to the other parent. For example, the Toy Show. Every year that was something you did separate to her. Is that because Friday night is your usual access night?

For 9 years you've had a pretty good set up. But life changes. Your son has moved house. That in itself brings changes to routines and what has always been done. Your ex is in a new relationship and building a new family that your son is part of, but you're not.

Things change, all the time, and you need to adapt and compromise. As does your ex. I agree with leggo's post you need to be proactive now and adapt to the changing situation. Your son, believe it not, in a few years will be in a very different phase of his life and you might find yourself coming second to days out with his friends instead of you. And that is something you will need to adapt to too.

If you were in a new relationship, living with a partner, do you think you would still carry on the arrangement of your ex coming and staying the night in the spare room? I doubt it. And it would be very disrespectful to expect a new partner to just accept that as "the way it's always been".

You are not a couple. You have been very very lucky to be able to share occasions like this for so long. But it is no longer an appropriate arrangement. There are families all over the world dealing with this exact situation and I guess very very few of them have the arrangement of the parents staying together the night before.

You need to come up with a new arrangement. And in a few years you'll probably have to come up with a new one again when your son starts wanting something other than what has been decided for him.

Ex taking my son for christmas, no say in the matter.

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