Ex taking my son for christmas, no say in the matter.

LegacyUser

Gone anonymous for this one as i know a few people on here in the real world, and really need some advise or just to vent.

My son will be 9 come christmas myself and his mom have never really been together in a proper relationship. We've always gotten on really well, not best friends, but friends nonetheless. I've been in a couple of other relationships over the last 9 years and she has been in 1 and gotten engaged over the last 3. No issues either side bar once about 4 years ago where she wanted us to give it a proper go and i didn't. But again, we were fine after that.

Every Christmas since my son was born in 2011 we would spend it together the 3 of us. Either at her home house or mine so that we could wake up together and both have santy with our son. We go halves on Santy every year, kind of, I mean i never go looking for anything I've spent back, but we both buy and have one pot. And then we alternate Christmas breakfast and dinner every year, this was my year for breakfast. For the first 6 years i had stayed at hers (all bar the last we ended up sleeping together which is by the by, just giving full story) and the last 2 years at mine. Both of those she was in her new relationship, engaged last year.

I have met her fiance a couple of times, seems alright, I've no issue with him, passed a couple of words in meeting, but he seems very stand offish which is grand, i guess its tough for him given I'm always around for the little lad and have so much communication with my ex. She has moved into his house which is about a 30-40 min drive from me, again none of my concern as it hasn't affected my relationship with my son in any way. If anything our time together has increased as his school is local to me.

So anyway, pointless background over, i messaged her a couple of weeks ago asking what's the story for this year. Is she happy enough to come over again and stay in the spare room. I'm told in no uncertain terms that she's not coming over nor is my son. That it is her first year in the house. She has a mam and a fiance and she has to involve them too. She and my son will be staying in her fiancé's house and i can come out Christmas morning, she will hold santy till i do, and she will make me breakfast. And to add to that she was keeping him for the toyshow that year. This was her first time in 8 years showing any interest in the toy show at all. It was me and my son's tradition up to this point. Couldn't even bring myself to watch it. Just went to bed after work and moped.

So now I'm in a situation where if I want to see my son on Christmas day, I have to drive to other side of the county, to a house I've never been to owned by a man I don't know and watch him open his presents and then walk away and leave them to it. I just feel so lost with the whole thing. I know I'm lucky in a way and there are fathers out there who would kill to even see their kids any day over Christmas but that doesn't make me feel any better tbh.

There's no discussion on this, its just her way or good luck. I think this hurts me as much. I have no interest in a relationship so it's not jealousy, but i feel like I've also lost a good friend. I would move heaven and earth if she needed anything and never in a million years would have dreamed of asking her to put herself in a similar situation and the fact that she has done this with no discussion has just shook me to the core.

I dunno if there is any advice on this. I mean i know it's a case of just suck it up and go out or miss Santy, i think just typing it out helps i guess. Apologies for the long read

Katgurl

I think you are heavily heavily deluded here OP. Did I read that correctly that you and your ex always sleep together at Christmas up to last year? So while she was in relationships? I don't think she was fine after you told her you did not want to give it a go.

Imo she has finally seen sense that you and her are never gonna be together and all this waiting around for you to see the light has to end. She is committing to someone else, she's marrying him, she lives with him and he is going to be stepfather to your son.

In his shoes I wouldn't let you in the house. Does he know / suspect about the infidelity?

It's very very hard I know but you decided to have a child with a woman you are not committed to so the traditional Christmas was unlikely to work out long-term. You will have to find a way to make your own traditions. Could you do Stephens day together and then next year swap days?

I would start getting arrangements formalised now as things are going to change and you don't wanna be sidelined.

ManOfMystery

I think you misread the bit about sleeping together Katgurl, OP didn't mean in the last couple of years since his ex has had a new partner. There's no infidelity that I can see.

I completely sympathise with your situation OP, but I think the type of Christmas that you and your ex have been enjoying with your son over the last few years was a very exceptional one. Most couples who are separate don't spend Christmas together or maintain as close a relationship as you have been doing.

Regardless of how close you were as friends, you weren't together and sooner or later one (or both) of you was going to end up in a relationship with someone else - and spending Christmas with an ex is no longer a feasible option when there's another relationship taking priority. Going forward I think you'll have to accept that Christmas will likely be split into different time slots that you can both spend with your son.

With that said, I think it's bad form for her to spell out the plans to you without any prior discussion or asking what your thoughts are - it wasn't very considerate.

ztoical

It's not cool OP that she's just made the choice without any discussion but you have kept things pretty casual by the sounds of it. Is there any legal arrangement for access? Can you agree he has Xmas day there and you go collect Stephens day to stay overnight at yours and do your presents and not have to share your time with her and the OH? The child is 9 now, do they still believe in Santy, does it make that much difference if you get to have Xmas together on the 25th or 26th? Your lives are changing and the child is growing so you need to sit down and iron out a clear agreement. Alternating holidays/birthdays going forward, I know it sucks having to divide up the child like this but the other option is you travel to their house for every major event and slowly find yourself pushed out as they marry and become a 'family'.

If you are on ok terms ask to discuss the issue first and see what the reaction is. Legal route is good as you have something official but if they fight it or refuse to respect an arrangement you might be legally right but it will take weeks/months/years to drag it through court.

Katgurl wrote: »

I think you are heavily heavily deluded here OP. Did I read that correctly that you and your ex always sleep together at Christmas up to last year? So while she was in relationships? I don't think she was fine after you told her you did not want to give it a go.

I read it for the first 6 Xmas they stayed at hers and the first 5 they ended up sleeping together. Then last 2 years at his place no sleeping together. She's been in the relationship for 3 years so doesn't read like she cheated but maybe I'm reading it wrong.

Princess Calla

She's moving on with her life.

Sounds like she always carried a torch for you, the sleeping together at Christmas didn't really help matters and in some ways it's abit cruel. You knew she had a thing for you and you didn't return it, you should have kept stronger boundaries. I'd imagine each year she thought this might be the one where you change your mind.

She's now in a relationship where she's getting what she wants. It's serious, they plan to marry and I presume they might start their own family. Either way they are a family unit now. They are going to start their own Christmas traditions. The same way if and when you get married you will start your own traditions.

I would recommend that you have a chat with her, like the previous poster said try to alternate Christmas day/st stephen's day etc.

I don't know how much of a long term future Christmas mornings will have (in the sense both of you are present regardless of where your child sleeps). For one your child is getting older so santa won't be a massive deal, plus if either of you have more children your not going to travel back and forth leaving other children at home if that makes sense.

Katgurl

Oh sorry I misunderstood about the infidelity.

My advice still stands though - she had feelings for you which you didn't reciprocate. She is now with someone who is committing to her. It sucks but they are building a family unit and you need to respect that.

Do get a formal agreement in place. Her fiance can't have been happy with her staying in yours and things will probably continue to change. They could go on to have their own children. You could meet someone and get married and have more children.

Ask for a discussion now about plans for the future. You are his father and have rights too.

Tork

I can understand why your ex made this decision about Christmas. She is caught in the middle of an awkward situation. She is now engaged to another man and is living with him. You referred to it as "his house" but she would probably describe it as "their home". This arrangement you had about Christmas was nice while it lasted and you did well to get so many years out of it. Now that she is living with this other man and is engaged to him, heading off to sleep in your spare room is a bigger deal. I can understand why you're hurt but the arrangement you had was unlikely to continue indefinitely. I wonder where does her fiancé come into this. You don't have much of a relationship with him and he probably doesn't want you near the house at all. If that sort of thing is going on in the background, it may have pushed your ex into making this decision without consulting you. You are clearly very upset and she probably knew that you'd react in this way. Maybe that is why she decided this without telling you. I'm not saying it's right - I'm just trying to look at things from her angle.

Are there any arrangements in place for your son to come stay with you over the Christmas break? You're upset about Christmas morning but what about the other days? What's happening with those? Can you have your son then?

Like the others, I see this as a sign that you may need to get formal arrangements put in place. Ideally, you and your ex should be able to discuss these things and be flexible but she seems to be now putting her foot down. It might be a one-off but it could also be a warning sign of things to come. Has she ever made it hard for you to see your son?

osarusan

You have just as much or little 'right' as she does to unilaterally decide your son is staying with you for Christmas and that's it and if she wants to come over, here is how that will work.

Her making that unilateral decision would piss me off no end, and I'd fight this if I were you OP. I'd fight it for this Christmas, unless you get a clear agreement on alternating Christmases from now on.

First of all I'd look for acknowledgement from her that she has no right to make these unilateral decisions.

Bandana boy

The old way of doing things is over , it would have been nice when you had a standing tradition that you discussed how it was going to change and not had it decreed , but never the less the new scenario is in place and it is not that unusual or could be construed as vindictive .


You need to build new traditions now , Maybe offer that you will take the kid Xmas eve spend the day with him and drop him over for pressie opening and Breakfast on Xmas day.

Not now but maybe in Late Summer start planning next Christmas and come to some agreement , maybe you swap each year who gets xmas day and the other person gets Toy show etc.

Terrontress

With me and my ex-wife, we do a year on / year off agreement. So take it on the chin this year, and next year you will get the Toy Show and she can come for breakfast on Christmas morning and say goodbye afterwards.

Let her know in advance of Christmas, let her know it will be tough for you not to have dinner with the kid, but you are happy to let her have it her way and you will do it your way next year.

I can understand her wish to have a Christmas with her mother and fiancé in a new home without an ex, especially if you and the fiancé don't have a great relationship. But fair is fair, you'll get the same access next year.

Most important, don't let your child know that there is any conflict about it.

9db3xj7z41fs5u

I am really sorry to hear your predicament! Personally, I know how tough it can be when Christmas is split between two separated parents.

It sounds to me like your ex’s partner is very much directing her. However, I also know first hand the acrimony that children can experience when parents go to war. I think that starting WWIII will only hurt your lovely son. As he grows older, he will become aware of the situation. I think that time with your son will trump everything else, so I would say bite your tongue and attend the Christmas with them.

With regard to going legal, the legal route will likely set fire to the situation and douse it with petrol. Nobody (and especially not your son) will benefit from this!!! And the cost of this is eye-watering.

You are unlikely to change the situation for this Christmas. However, I would go for coffee with your ex early on in the New Year and amicably state your pain and try to negotiate a compromise that suits you both.

I am sorry! It is a very painful situation to be in! Your love for your son should be your guiding principle! Everybody suffers when parents feud!!!

Princess Calla

osarusan wrote: »

You have just as much or little 'right' as she does to unilaterally decide your son is staying with you for Christmas and that's it and if she wants to come over, here is how that will work.

Her making that unilateral decision would piss me off no end, and I'd fight this if I were you OP. I'd fight it for this Christmas, unless you get a clear agreement on alternating Christmases from now on.

First of all I'd look for acknowledgement from her that she has no right to make these unilateral decisions.

I don't know how he can "fight" it though.

Why the op felt the need to send a message rather than face to face conversation is beyond me, he has gone to great lengths to tell us how friendly they are, so it's not as if a record of the conversation needs to be kept.

I think it's extremely naive of the op to think his ex was going to pack up her and the child's stuff ,leave her fiance behind, and spend Christmas Eve and Christmas morning with him , her ex. (If the fiance wrote a post saying his partner was doing this there'd be pages of "red flag" replies)

The situation has been handled badly, but then that often is the case when conversations are conducted over messenger rather than face to face.

A suggestion could be that the op stays the night in her house (if there's space) , this arrangement has worked in my family very well. However from the op's post it looks like he has made no effort with the fiance, which I find abit weird. If my child was moving in to another's house, I'd be making it my business to get to know them .

9db3xj7z41fs5u

Princess Calla wrote: »

I don't know how he can "fight" it though.

Why the op felt the need to send a message rather than face to face conversation is beyond me, he has gone to great lengths to tell us how friendly they are, so it's not as if a record of the conversation needs to be kept.

I think it's extremely naive of the op to think his ex was going to pack up her and the child's stuff ,leave her fiance behind, and spend Christmas Eve and Christmas morning with him , her ex. (If the fiance wrote a post saying his partner was doing this there'd be pages of "red flag" replies)

The situation has been handled badly, but then that often is the case when conversations are conducted over messenger rather than face to face.

A suggestion could be that the op stays the night in her house (if there's space) , this arrangement has worked in my family very well. However from the op's post it looks like he has made no effort with the fiance, which I find abit weird. If my child was moving in to another's house, I'd be making it my business to get to know them .

Until you are faced with these situations, it is impossible to know how you would react. It sounds easy when you read a few sentences on board to say “I would...” But add personal history, emotions, circumstances, etc and it becomes a lot less easy for the OP, or anybody in that situation

strandroad

Staying over for Christmas is understandably not an option anymore, but to take your Toy Show night away also and to make all of these decisions unilaterally is not on. You have exactly as much to say as she does, I would make it clear and if she is not receptive you might want to formalise access too.

There is a chance that they are in the process of establishing new patterns for their new family this year and she got carried away but a serious conversation is on the cards, a fleeting breakfast visit as your entire Christmas contact is not on.

Princess Calla

Nola Old-fashioned Pound wrote: »

Until you are faced with these situations, it is impossible to know how you would react. It sounds easy when you read a few sentences on board to say “I would...” But add personal history, emotions, circumstances, etc and it becomes a lot less easy for the OP, or anybody in that situation

I suppose you missed the line "this has worked well in my family"

9db3xj7z41fs5u

Princess Calla wrote: »

I suppose you missed the line "this has worked well in my family"

Every family is different. Circumstances are very unique to a situation. What works for your family would not have worked for mine. I think when one partner had more emotional feelings for the other, it’s tricky. And who knows what the ex’s fiancé is like. That is another variable.

osarusan

Bandana boy wrote: »

The old way of doing things is over , it would have been nice when you had a standing tradition that you discussed how it was going to change and not had it decreed , but never the less the new scenario is in place and it is not that unusual or could be construed as vindictive .

It doesn't have to be in place though. And while I agree that it's not unusual or vindictive, the unilateral way it was arrived at is very unfair.

The old ways of doing it couldn't continue forever, definitely. It was always going to change at some point. But one partner unilaterally deciding that 'this is how it is going to be and this is your role in it and that's that' is not on at all.

I'm going against the grain of the thread here to some extent, but if I were the OP's ex, I'd by replying that none of this was ever discussed, I never agreed to any of it, and she has no right to make these decisions without such discussion and agreement.

The idea of just accepting it for now and leaving it until later to work out a future arrangement doesn't sit well with me at all. That's just rewarding selfish behaviour.

At least, the OP needs to hammer out an arrangement for future Christmases that is acceptable to him, and he should be doing that before this Christmas.

SteM

Nola Old-fashioned Pound wrote: »

.....
It sounds to me like your ex’s partner is very much directing her.

This is unfair to say and pure speculation. Maybe the OP's ex feels awkward coming over a sleeping in the spare room of when her fiance would be at home on his own? Perhaps she realises that it's what she needs to to to keep her new relationship stable. Nothing to suggest in the original post that the fiance is causing the problems.

Tork

strandroad wrote: »

Staying over for Christmas is understandably not an option anymore, but to take your Toy Show night away also and to make all of these decisions unilaterally is not on. You have exactly as much to say as she does, I would make it clear and if she is not receptive you might want to formalise access too.

I see that Toy Show night as a bigger warning sign actually. Unlike the Christmas morning tradition which is now problematic for obvious reasons, the Toy Show was a father/son bonding on the sofa sort of thing. It has a circling the wagons feel about it.

I'd be slow to recommend you leap straight to the formal arrangements step but it might be something that you need to do. Especially if your ex decides to move your son to a school closer to where she lives now.

Princess Calla

Nola Old-fashioned Pound wrote: »

Every family is different. Circumstances are very unique to a situation. What works for your family would not have worked for mine. I think when one partner had more emotional feelings for the other, it’s tricky. And who knows what the ex’s fiancé is like. That is another variable.

Sure what's the point in posting a reply so? Absolutely no one will be in the exact same situation.

The whole idea is to offer advice from an outside perspective from a neutral stand point.

I'm very much aware that "one shoe doesn't fit all"

However it's Christmas and children need to be put first and adults need to put on their big boy/girl pants and get on with it.

It baffles me that the op thought his ex would leave her partner on Christmas Eve and spend it with him.

Was the situation handled well? No....it should have been a clear conversation face to face around holloween time.

However even if the conversation had happened it would probably still have worked out that she was spending her first Christmas in the new house with her fiance and mother along with the child. The family foundations firmly getting set.

Next year the op gets the toy show and Christmas Eve/Christmas day.

He didn't want a relationship with his ex,which is fair enough. The Christmas arrangement worked out well in the past as the ex was carrying a torch, illustrated by the sleeping together. The torch is now extinguished. The op is now finding himself in the situation that the majority of parents who have split up, find themselves in.... alternative yrs for Christmas, easter etc.

9db3xj7z41fs5u

SteM wrote: »

This is unfair to say and pure speculation. Maybe the OP's ex feels awkward coming over and sleeping in the spare room of when her fiance would be at home on his own? Perhaps she realises that it's what she needs to to to keep her new relationship stable. Nothing to suggest in the original post that the fiance is causing the problems.

I am considering the potential variables, in the context of the OP. If you look, he mentions that the ex’s partner was stand-offish with him. After all the years of acting in a unified manner, I do not understand why the ex would start trying to hurt the OP now (Toy-Show example). From the brief vignette, it would not be consistent with her behaviour, I.e. an external factor. You are correct, maybe the external factor is a friend or family member. But I am thinking that the partner is most likely.

Look, regardless of the source, it’s arbitrary. As I advocated in my previous posts, keep the peace! It will be traumatic for the son if his parents go to war! Maintain at least a cordial relationship and do not speak ill of the other parents (or the partner) to the child.

The child will be able to make an assessment of the situation as he grows. I am sure that the son will appreciate how much the dad loves him, considering that the dad was willing to spend Christmas with his son, no matter how unpleasant the situation

9db3xj7z41fs5u

Princess Calla wrote: »

Sure what's the point in posting a reply so? Absolutely no one will be in the exact same situation.

The whole idea is to offer advice from an outside perspective from a neutral stand point.

I'm very much aware that "one shoe doesn't fit all"

However it's Christmas and children need to be put first and adults need to put on their big boy/girl pants and get on with it.

It baffles me that the op thought his ex would leave her partner on Christmas Eve and spend it with him.

Was the situation handled well? No....it should have been a clear conversation face to face around holloween time.

However even if the conversation had happened it would probably still have worked out that she was spending her first Christmas in the new house with her fiance and mother along with the child. The family foundations firmly getting set.

Next year the op gets the toy show and Christmas Eve/Christmas day.

He didn't want a relationship with his ex,which is fair enough. The Christmas arrangement worked out well in the past as the ex was carrying a torch, illustrated by the sleeping together. The torch is now extinguished. The op is now finding himself in the situation that the majority of parents who have split up, find themselves in.... alternative yrs for Christmas, easter etc.

I think that the situation is painful enough for the OP! There is a difference between posting advice and judgment

strandroad

Tork wrote: »

I see that Toy Show night as a bigger warning sign actually. Unlike the Christmas morning tradition which is now problematic for obvious reasons, the Toy Show was a father/son bonding on the sofa sort of thing. It has a circling the wagons feel about it.

I completely agree; Christmas day comes with a lot of logistics, grandparents might have expectations etc. But Toy Show night has none of that, so it feels unnecessary bordering on hostile to pull it, if OP gets no one on one access for Christmas otherwise.

Neyite

I think that this year you have to suck it up, travel and go early in the morning to do Santa with your son.

Anything else hurts him. And his feelings are the only ones that matter here.

This might be one of the last years of Santa, so suck it up.



You should probably look into your options for formalising the arrangement - whether that's sitting down with your ex and working it out or needing legal advice and go to court to get it set in stone - and money you pay is part of that. But the main issue right now is the day itself and I don't see that you have a choice that won't upset your son.

Princess Calla

Nola Old-fashioned Pound wrote: »

I think that the situation is painful enough for the OP! There is a difference between posting advice and judgment

Where did I judge?

Face to face conversation is so much better than a text conversation. He has gone to a great length to say how well they got on, surely at drop offs/ collections a conversation could have been had.

9db3xj7z41fs5u

Princess Calla wrote: »

However from the op's post it looks like he has made no effort with the fiance, which I find abit weird. If my child was moving in to another's house, I'd be making it my business to get to know them .

Maybe I am being overly-sensitive here, but this comment comes across harsh and a bit judgmental (in my opinion, I am open to correction)

It takes two to tango, and if the ex’s partner is not being friendly with the OP, then it can be hard to “get to know them”

Princess Calla

strandroad wrote: »

I completely agree; Christmas day comes with a lot of logistics, grandparents might have expectations etc. But Toy Show night has none of that, so it feels unnecessary bordering on hostile to pull it, if OP gets no one on one access for Christmas otherwise.

Yeah I agree too.

The only thing I can think to justify this is , alot of parents will keep new boyfriends/girlfriends away from their kids until they are sure how serious the relationship is. They got engaged this year, so maybe the fiance is trying to get to know the child better and build the relationship by making memories.

It seems abit of a sledgehammer approach but it may not come from a vindictive place either.

The op seems to think everything will continue the way it was, which unfortunately it won't. The same way if he was in a serious relationship with the view to marriage he'd be making decisions with his girlfriend in mind too.

They do need to have a frank conversation though, or else things will fester, and small issues will become huge.

9db3xj7z41fs5u

Princess Calla wrote: »

Yeah I agree too.

The only thing I can think to justify this is , alot of parents will keep new boyfriends/girlfriends away from their kids until they are sure how serious the relationship is. They got engaged this year, so maybe the fiance is trying to get to know the child better and build the relationship by making memories.

It seems abit of a sledgehammer approach but it may not come from a vindictive place either.

The op seems to think everything will continue the way it was, which unfortunately it won't. The same way if he was in a serious relationship with the view to marriage he'd be making decisions with his girlfriend in mind too.

They do need to have a frank conversation though, or else things will fester, and small issues will become huge.

I agree about the frank conversation! It is the best approach to solving it, if feasible! You are both united in your love for your son. Hopefully, that will form the foundation of a fair agreement for uoy both!

And Santa will only realistically be there for another 2 Christmases, and then roll in the teenage years, with its own set of challenges!

Neyite

Thinking more on this, it's actually in everyone's interests that you get to know this man, not least yours.



He's going to be a stepfather to your boy, your boy lives in his house, and he's going to be a big part of your son's life whether you like it or not. It makes sense that all of the adults in your son's life get along - and the better everyone gets along, the better outcome for your son.



Maybe he is a bit wary of you but to be fair, you are wary of him too. And maybe if you got to know him you might find he's a nice guy. Maybe your ex does want to change things and has gone about things the wrong way and maybe you might have to get a court ordered arrangement but the old saying goes you catch more flies with honey than vinegar might apply here. It's worth a try to do the friendly approach first.

9db3xj7z41fs5u

Neyite wrote: »

Thinking more on this, it's actually in everyone's interests that you get to know this man, not least yours.



He's going to be a stepfather to your boy, your boy lives in his house, and he's going to be a big part of your son's life whether you like it or not. It makes sense that all of the adults in your son's life get along - and the better everyone gets along, the better outcome for your son.



Maybe he is a bit wary of you but to be fair, you are wary of him too. And maybe if you got to know him you might find he's a nice guy. Maybe your ex does want to change things and has gone about things the wrong way and maybe you might have to get a court ordered arrangement but the old saying goes you catch more flies with honey than vinegar might apply here. It's worth a try to do the friendly approach first.

Wise words! And I can see why Princess Callala is encouraging the same! To say that my parents’ split was acrimonious is an understatement. They went the nuclear approach. Invariably, Christmas was like a test of loyalty. One parent would be miffed and resentful at the choice. Children should be never made to feel like their are choosing between. There were so many opportunities over the years to make peace, but missed at every turn. Take every opportunity you can to maintain the peace with your ex, even if it means being friendly with the ex’s fiancé. I wouldn’t wish the alternative on anybody! The scars from going legal can tear a family apart

Princess Calla

Nola Old-fashioned Pound wrote: »

Maybe I am being overly-sensitive here, but this comment comes across harsh and a bit judgmental (in my opinion, I am open to correction)

It takes two to tango, and if the ex’s partner is not being friendly with the OP, then it can be hard to “get to know them”

Well I stand by the comment.

Whether the op like it or not, this man is going to be in his life potentially forever.

Birthdays, confirmation, school graduation, college graduation all the big things, but he's also there for all daily boring life stuff too.

I don't understand why the op wouldn't move on from a nod....from the time it was announced the son was moving in with the fiance the op should have made an effort to get to know the fiance better. It's not about gaining a new best friend, it's about knowing who your children are living with.

So I don't accept the argument "oh the fiance didn't make an effort either" the fiance doesn't really need to make an effort it's not his son moving in with another man.