General Premier League Thread 2020-21 - Mod Notes in 1st post. [Updated 17/12/20]

Fitz* · 01-12-2020 02:26PM

I wonder would stakeholders / managers / players / fans be happy with a tweak to VAR?

A single line showing the defenders line. The VAR sends the single image with a single defending offside line directly to the pitchside monitor and the on field referee can decide whether the attacker is gaining an advantage or not if they are clearly over the offside line or not. They can see if their linesman made a clear and obvious error by flagging/not flagging for offside. No need for measurements. Eyeball it using the line as to be fair if you need a measuring tape to see between two lines, there is no real advantage. Offside would be clearly seen.

I think players would buy into that myself. Maybe even managers. I would buy into that over the current guise.

eigrod · 01-12-2020 02:28PM

Trigger wrote: »

You are talking about the linesman & refs opinions and perceptions that they are level, they could be wrong, and many times as we have seen before Var they are wrong. Var takes that perception out, and gives a clear yes and no answer to offside by using the technology

As I have explained twice already, I am answering the question from Shano as to why should the attacker get the advantage when they are level - absolutely nothing to do with VAR. VAR will never ever be in place for 90%+ of football games that will be played and referees or linesmen will always call level, when that is what they feel it was.

eigrod · 01-12-2020 02:29PM

Shanotheslayer wrote: »

Ah yes because the ref shouted it, it must be factually correct. Did you go to VAR to verify this level? I guess no. So it was level from the Human eye. That doesn't mean he's level

Jeeez, that’s a whole different argument.

citytillidie · 01-12-2020 02:30PM

Shanotheslayer wrote: »

The refs don't flag for offside straight away now? They let play continue until the ball is out of play then they flag it and VAR reviews?

Back to Brighton V Liverpool the ball hit Fabinho's had from about 2 yards away the ref was about to blow for a pen until the linesman raised his flag for offside which was correct but the delaying of raising the flag is going to cause issues.

DVDM93 · 01-12-2020 02:33PM

Thank you @gimli2112.

@NITRO95 I'd like to offer my sincerest apologies & if I've upset you or anyone else then that wasn't my intention. Genuinely.

I've since edited my OP for you, would you be so kind as to forgive & forget? I don't want this looming over me for the day.

We all experience times where we have to be reminded by others to choose our words more carefully.

If you can't find it in your heart to forgive me then I ask that you look at the Edison Cavani situation as to better relate to my situation here.

We both unintentionally used words which in retrospect might be seen as ill-advised.

What say you?

8-10 · 01-12-2020 02:40PM

Shanotheslayer wrote: »

Why should it benefit the attacker?

FIFA Offside Law dictates that it should

A player is not in an offside position if level with the:
• second-last opponent or
• last two opponents

I'm not saying the law should be like that, I'm saying that it is like that and the problem I see with VAR is it has no way to accurately judge a state of being level that is called out in Rule 11

If being level is a 'thing' in the rules of the game it should be catered for. And in the rules, being level = onside.

eigrod · 01-12-2020 02:42PM

8-10 wrote: »

FIFA Offside Law dictates that it should

I'm not saying the law should be like that, I'm saying that it is like that and the problem I see with VAR is it has no way to accurately judge a state of being level that is called out in Rule 11

If being level is a 'thing' in the rules of the game it should be catered for. And in the rules, being level = offside.

Think you mean Onside there.

Bridge93 · 01-12-2020 02:42PM

So Newcastle have entered 'dialogue' with the league over the postponement of Fridays game at Villa. Seems increasingly likely its not going ahead

Nerdlingr · 01-12-2020 02:43PM

Anything to be said for a rule that if your armpit or sleeve is 'offside', that unless you score with that armpit/sleeve then the goal should stand?
Take last nights goal for example, the goal still stands as watkins wasnt really gaining any unfair advantage.
same as bamford's against palace, he points where he wants the ball played then dinks it over the keeper. But because his sleeve is offside when he scores technically he's off. Following the rule to the letter of the law is ruining the enjoyment of the game, common sense or a bit of tweaking needs happen.

Shanotheslayer · 01-12-2020 02:44PM

8-10 wrote: »

FIFA Offside Law dictates that it should

I'm not saying the law should be like that, I'm saying that it is like that and the problem I see with VAR is it has no way to accurately judge a state of being level that is called out in Rule 11

If being level is a 'thing' in the rules of the game it should be catered for. And in the rules, being level = offside.

This can be in response to Eirgod to. When the debate is surrounding 'Level' in the current discussion my interpretation is that the likes of Salah/Watkins people are referring to level. Otherwise, why is it even a discussion because , they are not level based on the lines from VAR? If both lines are 100% equal and the player is level, by all means, benefit the attacker. I have yet to see a case where VAR has deemed the lines equal and awarded the defender though?

8-10 I assume that being level = offside is a typo and that should be Onside?

dfx- · 01-12-2020 02:45PM

Shanotheslayer wrote: »

I think I'm misunderstanding this

Player A passes to Player B who is offside
Linesmen doesn't flag
Player B is then fouled

My understanding is that it calls back to the offside. Is this not the case? Or are you referring to the other team getting the ball from this and scoring at the other end?

If there is no flag and no goal/penalty/red card, then the no flag stands as called, there is no review of the offside and you're free to score from the free-kick or corner or possibly even from a few phases of play as if the offside never happened.

So you can be offside by any distance as long as you don't score directly from it or you can be like Watkins and offside by a hair's width and reviewed.

When VAR gets involved, a totally different judgement criteria gets involved.

8-10 · 01-12-2020 02:46PM

eigrod wrote: »

Think you mean Onside there.

Yeah I did, edited.

And I get the argument that the lines are more precise, but there's still got to be a margin of error, I mean don't they take the first frame after ball has left the passer's foot? There is still the possibility that the ball left his foot a couple of millimetres before the frame that they end up using. But we never see any analysis of the moment the ball is played, talk is always of the lines that are drawn.

It also takes far too long. If you've ever been in the ground where a VAR decision is being made, with no big screen showing the outcome and nobody explaining like on tv, it all ends up a confusing mess in the stands

Mitch Connor · 01-12-2020 02:48PM

Nerdlingr wrote: »

Anything to be said for a rule that if your armpit or sleeve is 'offside', that unless you score with that armpit/sleeve then the goal should stand?
take last nights goal for example, the goal still stands as watkins wasnt really any unfair advantage.
same as bamford's against palace, he points where he wants the ball played then dinks it over the keeper. But because his sleeve is offside when he scores technically he's off. Following the rule to the letter of the law is ruining the enjoyment of the game, common sense or a bit of tweaking needs happen.

imo the way to solve this is to make the lines used to determine offside smallish number of centimeters. If the line of the attacker overlaps with the line of the defender, they are not called offside.

rob316 · 01-12-2020 02:50PM

Fitz* wrote: »

I wonder would stakeholders / managers / players / fans be happy with a tweak to VAR?

A single line showing the defenders line. The VAR sends the single image with a single defending offside line directly to the pitchside monitor and the on field referee can decide whether the attacker is gaining an advantage or not if they are clearly over the offside line or not. They can see if their linesman made a clear and obvious error by flagging/not flagging for offside. No need for measurements. Eyeball it using the line as to be fair if you need a measuring tape to see between two lines, there is no real advantage. Offside would be clearly seen.

I think players would buy into that myself. Maybe even managers. I would buy into that over the current guise.

Exactly just eyeball it, its just killing the game watching lines been drawn on the pitch after each goal.

Mitch Connor · 01-12-2020 02:52PM

rob316 wrote: »

Exactly just eyeball it, its just killing the game watching lines been drawn on the pitch after each goal.

eyeballing doesn't really work because of distance and perspective of camera shots. Players can look well onside or offside (when the opposite) because of the angle of the shot and the distance between them and the last defender.

Nerdlingr · 01-12-2020 02:52PM

Mitch Connor wrote: »

imo the way to solve this is to make the lines used to determine offside smallish number of centimeters. If the line of the attacker overlaps with the line of the defender, they are not called offside.

Apparently the lines they use in the VAR room are tiny...one pixel or something..but they enlarge them for the benefit of the viewing public when they show the replays on TV.

My issue is with sleeves and armpits being offside...different to the whole other deabte/sh*tstorm of lines on a pitch.

yourdeadwright · 01-12-2020 02:56PM

rob316 wrote: »

Exactly just eyeball it, its just killing the game watching lines been drawn on the pitch after each goal.

The Dutch league do offside a bit different from the rest of Europe and it seems to be working ,

They use two 5 cm thick lines, one from the last part of the defender and one form the furthest point of the attacker and if there touching your onside, if there's a gap your offside,

eigrod · 01-12-2020 02:58PM

yourdeadwright wrote: »

The Dutch league do offside a bit different from the rest of Europe and it seems to be working ,

They use two 5 cm thick lines, one from the last part of the defender and one form the furthest point of the attacker and if there touching your onside, if there's a gap your offside,

Is that a bit like the old daylight rule?

Shanotheslayer · 01-12-2020 03:00PM

yourdeadwright wrote: »

The Dutch league do offside a bit different from the rest of Europe and it seems to be working ,

They use two 5 cm thick lines, one from the last part of the defender and one form the furthest point of the attacker and if there touching your onside, if there's a gap your offside,

Either way you're still coming down to MM. Because if they're touching by a MM it's deemed on etc.

Mitch Connor · 01-12-2020 03:20PM

Nerdlingr wrote: »

Apparently the lines they use in the VAR room are tiny...one pixel or something..but they enlarge them for the benefit of the viewing public when they show the replays on TV.

My issue is with sleeves and armpits being offside...different to the whole other deabte/sh*tstorm of lines on a pitch.

that is because it is no longer handball if the ball hits upper shoulder - so you can score with that body part. If a body part you can score with is offside you are considered offside.

IMO, in absence of a margin or error I don't think you should be allowing a body part you can score with to be offside just because you didn't score with it.

Mitch Connor · 01-12-2020 03:22PM

Shanotheslayer wrote: »

Either way you're still coming down to MM. Because if they're touching by a MM it's deemed on etc.

yes, in terms of the lines. but in reality you will be talking CMs, not MMs.

Ie. if you make the lines 3cm each, then you have a potential margin of error of 6cms. If a player is then still offside they were not offside by just a mm or two, they were off by over 60mm.

Mitch Connor · 01-12-2020 03:24PM

yourdeadwright wrote: »

The Dutch league do offside a bit different from the rest of Europe and it seems to be working ,

They use two 5 cm thick lines, one from the last part of the defender and one form the furthest point of the attacker and if there touching your onside, if there's a gap your offside,

It works the other way too though.

If the assistant flagged you off and the the VAR shows the lines are touching you are considered off because that is what the onfield decision was - even if VAR actually shows you were onside.

Which seems mad to me, but that is how it is in Holland.

Also, Holland (and somewhere else) have gone against FIFA dictat in doing this - they technically aren't allowed to do so.

Cookiemunster · 01-12-2020 03:27PM

Mitch Connor wrote: »

It works the other way too though.

If the assistant flagged you off and the the VAR shows the lines are touching you are considered off because that is what the onfield decision was - even if VAR actually shows you were onside.

Which seems mad to me, but that is how it is in Holland.

Also, Holland (and somewhere else) have gone against FIFA dictat in doing this - they technically aren't allowed to do so.

Denmark is the other country.

Shanotheslayer · 01-12-2020 03:36PM

Mitch Connor wrote: »

yes, in terms of the lines. but in reality you will be talking CMs, not MMs.

Ie. if you make the lines 3cm each, then you have a potential margin of error of 6cms. If a player is then still offside they were not offside by just a mm or two, they were off by over 60mm.

Yeh fair point Mitch

DVDM93 · 01-12-2020 03:36PM

Another footballer falling out of love with the game he dreamed of playing as a kid, it's a real shame.

https://twitter.com/JackGrealish/status/1333553568457105411?s=20

In saying that, Jack hasn't much of a leg to stand on until he stops trying to con vulnerable referees like he did last night.

https://twitter.com/Jacobr_10/status/1333519702874841090?s=20

01-12-2020 04:22PM

DVDM93 wrote: »

Another footballer falling out of love with the game he dreamed of playing as a kid, it's a real shame.

https://twitter.com/JackGrealish/status/1333553568457105411?s=20

I find diving, rolling around and cheating far more egregious and damaging to the game than VAR.

DVDM93 · 01-12-2020 04:30PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I find diving, rolling around and cheating far more egregious and damaging to the game than VAR.

Yes Conor, I agree.

That is why in the same post I said;

In saying that, Jack hasn't much of a leg to stand on until he stops trying to con vulnerable referees like he did last night.

https://twitter.com/Jacobr_10/status/1333519702874841090?s=20

You may have missed it.

Agent Coulson · 01-12-2020 04:50PM

The Newcastle Villa game has been postponed.

DM_7 · 01-12-2020 05:42PM

dfx- wrote: »

If there is no flag and no goal/penalty/red card, then the no flag stands as called, there is no review of the offside and you're free to score from the free-kick or corner or possibly even from a few phases of play as if the offside never happened.

So you can be offside by any distance as long as you don't score directly from it or you can be like Watkins and offside by a hair's width and reviewed.

When VAR gets involved, a totally different judgement criteria gets involved.

VAR check goals for offside.

If an assistance sees a player as offside they are asked to wait until the play finishes. They should then flag the offside if they saw one, not just ignore it. That would remove the free, corner etc. We have seen this happen where a player takes a shot and the flag then goes up after the 'play' has finished.

Goals, penalties, possible red cards are the most significant things and are therefore checked. VAR was never intended to check every occurrence on a pitch but to assist in determining the correct decision, in line with the laws for the 'major' moments.

dfx- · 01-12-2020 06:02PM

the laws don't change for major moments.

They're not necessarily ignoring it - they just don't give it as offside as there's only centimetres are in it in real time.

Never mind how decisions are made and how the game has been refereed so far are all aspects as to whether a foul in the box is a 'clear' enough error by the ref on the field. It can't be done by treating the foul in isolation just because it is a 'major incident' in the penalty box. That breeds inconsistency.

Refereeing the penalty box differently to the rest of the pitch has always been a problem.

General Premier League Thread 2020-21 - Mod Notes in 1st post. [Updated 17/12/20]

Comments