Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

Zzippy · 30-11-2020 1:43pm #1

Continued on from previous threads. Title can be decided if we get better suggestions than the placeholder. We may run a poll.

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Clegg · 30-11-2020 1:50pm

Zzippy wrote: »

Continued on from previous threads. Title can be decided if we get better suggestions than the placeholder. We may run a poll.

Will post here as this was the last post in the previous thread.

This is the right decision. Although I wonder who the IRFU have yet to reach an agreement with.

https://twitter.com/Murray_Kinsella/status/1333387570408022017?s=09

Squidgy Black · 30-11-2020 1:54pm

Clegg wrote: »

Will post here as this was the last post in the previous thread.

This is the right decision. Although I wonder who the IRFU have yet to reach an agreement with.

https://twitter.com/Murray_Kinsella/status/1333387570408022017?s=09

Think the main names who's contracts are up soon are:

Stander, Henderson, Sexton, Earls, POM, Furlong, Healy

FACECUTTR · 30-11-2020 1:55pm

Clegg wrote: »

Will post here as this was the last post in the previous thread.

This is the right decision. Although I wonder who the IRFU have yet to reach an agreement with.

https://twitter.com/Murray_Kinsella/status/1333387570408022017?s=09

Could the impasse have contributed to the poor performance? If there are players in camp who are not getting the contract they want could it have affected or be currently having an influence on the preparation/attitude?

Dog Botherer · 30-11-2020 1:55pm

Squidgy Black wrote: »

Think the main names who's contracts are up soon are:

Stander, Henderson, Sexton, Earls, POM, Furlong, Healy

reckon Earls, POM, and Healy are **** out of luck. Sexton would be lucky to get a year extension.

Squidgy Black · 30-11-2020 2:01pm

Dog Botherer wrote: »

reckon Earls, POM, and Healy are **** out of luck. Sexton would be lucky to get a year extension.

To be honest, with the way things have gone financially for the IRFU so far this year, anyone who's up for renewal is probably going to be in for a bit of a shock.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if we start hearing rumours originating from their camps/agents that lowballs are being flung around.

awec · 30-11-2020 2:06pm

IRFU will keep saying they won't pick players abroad until there's enough important players abroad that they've no choice.

Dog Botherer · 30-11-2020 2:06pm

there’s going to be a lot of lowball offers floated but it’s not like the French or English clubs are doing much better than the IRFU. maybe if some French club had another run at the Toulon Galactico model but otherwise nah.

mostly the lads i named are no longer clear cut first choice, especially in the backrow.

AbusesToilets · 30-11-2020 2:11pm

The current crisis would be an opportune time to rework the nature of central contracts. Get away from a fixed term situation, and make them closer to an annual incentive for selection to the national squad.

Podge_irl · 30-11-2020 2:13pm

awec wrote: »

IRFU will keep saying they won't pick players abroad until there's enough important players abroad that they've no choice.

Maybe, but sticking to it now makes that scenario developing less likely.

molloyjh · 30-11-2020 2:23pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

Maybe, but sticking to it now makes that scenario developing less likely.

Yep. It would be a dangerous road to go down too as we've seen in Wales. The most I can see them doing is relaxing things for a short period due to Covid and allow themselves to get back to a similar position to the one they were in before Covid. But they'll be pretty strict about it. The model has served Irish rugby very well. They'll stick to it, or as closely to it as possible.

30-11-2020 2:26pm

Dog Botherer wrote: »

there’s going to be a lot of lowball offers floated but it’s not like the French or English clubs are doing much better than the IRFU. maybe if some French club had another run at the Toulon Galactico model but otherwise nah.

mostly the lads i named are no longer clear cut first choice, especially in the backrow.

Indeed, it's not a given that you can take the horse to France this time.

Agent's rumour-float-negotiating-weapon no.1 de-powered

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mxl0UmXi8a0

Yeah_Right · 30-11-2020 2:31pm

AbusesToilets wrote: »

The current crisis would be an opportune time to rework the nature of central contracts. Get away from a fixed term situation, and make them closer to an annual incentive for selection to the national squad.

The problem with that is it means that the player isn't guaranteed money. A drop in form or injuries would massively affect his income. If he has a family and is then offered a guaranteed salary for 3 or 4 years by a club in France, Japan or the UK, he might prioritise their well-being over playing for Ireland.

Burkie1203 · 30-11-2020 2:31pm

Squidgy Black wrote: »

Think the main names who's contracts are up soon are:

Stander, Henderson, Sexton, Earls, POM, Furlong, Healy

Henderson and Furlong are the only two essential to retain IMO

Former Former Former · 30-11-2020 2:32pm

At least they've come out and said it. It might spare us from some of the disingenuous bollocks we've had to endure with a certain back-three player the last few months.

thomond2006 · 30-11-2020 2:34pm

I'm assuming the few people calling for Donnacha Ryan are unaware that he turns 37 next month.

He was unfortunate that his career progression was hampered by POC, DOC and MOD being ahead of him at Munster but he's had a great career regardless and has carved out an excellent final few seasons with Racing 92.

Podge_irl · 30-11-2020 2:35pm

thomond2006 wrote: »

I'm assuming the few people calling for Donnacha Ryan are unaware that he turns 37 next month.

Jesus, I didn't even realise he was that old. He really wasted his career potential at Munster unfortunately.

bilston · 30-11-2020 2:35pm

Dog Botherer wrote: »

reckon Earls, POM, and Healy are **** out of luck. Sexton would be lucky to get a year extension.

Healy is still pretty essential.

30-11-2020 2:42pm

awec wrote: »

IRFU will keep saying they won't pick players abroad until there's enough important players abroad that they've no choice.

precisely that

for all this talk of flogging the players in France if you have a backlog at some positions in provinces it mightn't be the worst thing in the world to happen now and again, to as a side effect, bring players through quicker through getting more experience

sydthebeat · 30-11-2020 2:43pm

there is currently no one in the irish panel who is over the age of 29 and on a central contract, that would be a "marquee player" standard to move to england for the big bucks...

any move off a central contract onto a provincial one will mean quite a wage drop for some players, but there will not be anything like the reciprocal of their central contracts on offer abroad in europe.

jonny sexton may get a one year pension somewhere like japan, but i dont think he'd be interested after having his pay day already.

whether or not players will be accepting of a extension with a significant cut will be very interesting to see. The IRFU are actually in a good place to kind of "reset" the pay structure a bit. The reduction of the salary cap in england is going to have knock on effect here too.

sydthebeat · 30-11-2020 2:46pm

awec wrote: »

IRFU will keep saying they won't pick players abroad until there's enough important players abroad that they've no choice.

i think thats an absolute given... but one where the IRFU themselves would admit to, seeing as there is no prescribed policy.

They know themselves it would be utterly silly to completely close off the opportunity, in my opinion.

Dog Botherer · 30-11-2020 2:54pm

bilston wrote: »

Healy is still pretty essential.

hard to say. he’s in his 30s now and there’s a lot of miles on the clock. he’s also visibly slowed this year and isn’t the destructive ball carrier he once was. he offers a solid scrum but more than that is required at this level. if Kilcoyne was fit i’m not certain Healy would be starting.

TRC10 · 30-11-2020 3:00pm

Dog Botherer wrote: »

hard to say. he’s in his 30s now and there’s a lot of miles on the clock. he’s also visibly slowed this year and isn’t the destructive ball carrier he once was. he offers a solid scrum but more than that is required at this level. if Kilcoyne was fit i’m not certain Healy would be starting.

But Kilcoyne is only a year younger than Healy. We really missed an opportunity this November to blood OSullivan (24)

Dog Botherer · 30-11-2020 3:05pm

TRC10 wrote: »

But Kilcoyne is only a year younger than Healy. We really missed an opportunity this November to blood OSullivan (24)

i wouldn’t give a CC to Kilcoyne either. if there’s no outstanding players in a position then a CC should be an incentive for one of them to establish themselves.

30-11-2020 3:06pm

Ireland heavy favourites for the game next week -

~1/3 vs 3/1

9 points handicap in favour of Ireland

bit generous?

Farrell and the team will be desperate for a win

molloyjh · 30-11-2020 3:10pm

TRC10 wrote: »

But Kilcoyne is only a year younger than Healy. We really missed an opportunity this November to blood OSullivan (24)

Yeah, the non-selection of EOS in the initial Autumn squad was at least, at the time, a very big risk. Now it can only be seen as a big mistake. We're hobbling along at LH as well as at 9 and 10. We're missing any kind of destructive ball carrying in the pack too. We can't do much with the latter at the moment as we dont have a SOB or a Ferris on the scene provincially. We actually did what little we could at 9 and 10 (there's obviously a reason that Cooney isn't seen as an option at 9). But we needed to look at more than just Byrne for the LH spot, and Killers injury allowed us to do that in as sensible way as possible. By including 3 LHs in a squad for a 4 game tournament. Which is surely what we should always have been doing!?

shootermacg · 30-11-2020 3:11pm

bilston wrote: »

Healy is still pretty essential.

I don't think he's essential at all. In fact I'd have him warming a bench and I'd bring in Cronin. KH is not really anywhere near the player he used to be. Cronin brings a lot of breakdown work and carrying that Healy just isn't doing anymore.

Former Former Former · 30-11-2020 3:22pm

shootermacg wrote: »

I don't think he's essential at all. In fact I'd have him warming a bench and I'd bring in Cronin. KH is not really anywhere near the player he used to be. Cronin brings a lot of breakdown work and carrying that Healy just isn't doing anymore.

Cronin?

He's 30 years old and hasn't played a test in 5 years.

ionadnapokot · 30-11-2020 3:40pm

I'm surprised that Ireland are 9 point favorites v Scot.
Even with Weir at 10 i think Scotland can win if they scored the first try.
This game not on TV all?

UAEguy2020 · 30-11-2020 4:01pm

I think a performance like against England,Wales,France etc should be enough at the weekend to get over the line at the weekend. It must be remembered as bad as yesterday was our defence was still very strong, its the attack thats the issue.

yerrahbah · 30-11-2020 4:05pm

ionadnapokot wrote: »

I'm surprised that Ireland are 9 point favorites v Scot.
Even with Weir at 10 i think Scotland can win if they scored the first try.
This game not on TV all?

RTE 2 according to the nations cup site and the RTE site

shootermacg · 30-11-2020 4:08pm

Former Former Former wrote: »

Cronin?

He's 30 years old and hasn't played a test in 5 years.

Nonetheless, I think he's a better option than Healy.

ionadnapokot · 30-11-2020 4:09pm

Unfortunately Irelands defence is also a real issue.
See shambolic tries conceded v France, England & even Georgia.
Not helped by picking a FB where none of his primary attributes are defence and all of his weakness are defence!

AbusesToilets · 30-11-2020 4:13pm

Yeah_Right wrote: »

The problem with that is it means that the player isn't guaranteed money. A drop in form or injuries would massively affect his income. If he has a family and is then offered a guaranteed salary for 3 or 4 years by a club in France, Japan or the UK, he might prioritise their well-being over playing for Ireland.

Perhaps, but it looks like there will be reduced finances across the board globally. I'd also wager most players would want to stay at the Provinces because they are better clubs as a whole. More competitive than all bar a handful of French and English ones.

Dubinusa · 30-11-2020 4:19pm

I would have hoped that this series of games would have presented clear frontrunners for key positions going forward.
I think we still have no clear candidate for hooker. Herring is imo the best of what we've seen so far. Kelleher imo has been poor and I think Heffernan is average. This is a cause for concern.
Healy is still good for 40 minutes. He clearly is not dynamic anymore and has a lot of milage. Ed Byrne is not good enough imo. I eagerly await the 6nations to see the selection here.
JGP looks decent and could feature going forward, Murray has been ok and Marmion looks to be out of favor. I expect Murray to be the starter for the 6nations with JGP as the reserve. Maybe Cooney comes back in...
Sexton is still our best 10. Burns looks better than RB and Carberry is still out. Who knows if Carberry will return and be as good as he was.
I think we still are no clearer in selections for these positions.
Hopefully Furlong gets back and returns to top form. Porter has been good and industrious but, but I think Furlong is better.
The back row seems undercooked too. I reckon VDF will come back in next week.
There's tons of questions... still.

Dog Botherer · 30-11-2020 4:27pm

i don’t think we saw enough of Ed Byrne to make any kind of statement on his international prowess.

TRC10 · 30-11-2020 4:45pm

Dubinusa wrote: »

I would have hoped that this series of games would have presented clear frontrunners for key positions going forward.
I think we still have no clear candidate for hooker. Herring is imo the best of what we've seen so far. Kelleher imo has been poor and I think Heffernan is average. This is a cause for concern.
Healy is still good for 40 minutes. He clearly is not dynamic anymore and has a lot of milage. Ed Byrne is not good enough imo. I eagerly await the 6nations to see the selection here.
JGP looks decent and could feature going forward, Murray has been ok and Marmion looks to be out of favor. I expect Murray to be the starter for the 6nations with JGP as the reserve. Maybe Cooney comes back in...
Sexton is still our best 10. Burns looks better than RB and Carberry is still out. Who knows if Carberry will return and be as good as he was.
I think we still are no clearer in selections for these positions.
Hopefully Furlong gets back and returns to top form. Porter has been good and industrious but, but I think Furlong is better.
The back row seems undercooked too. I reckon VDF will come back in next week.
There's tons of questions... still.

Bit unfair on Kelleher I think. Yes the lineout was a disaster in London and he must take his share of the blame. But we had an inexperienced caller with the added burden of captaincy. Kelleher put Billy Vunipola on his back in the first few minutes of the game. He offers a lot more around the park than Herring (Defense, ball carrying etc) and is thought by scrum experts to be a very strong in that area. Yes lineout is an issue but I wouldn't go so far as to say hes been poor.

UAEguy2020 · 30-11-2020 4:51pm

Dog Botherer wrote: »

i don’t think we saw enough of Ed Byrne to make any kind of statement on his international prowess.

His international prowess was decided before he even set foot on the field.

El_Duderino 09 · 30-11-2020 4:54pm

bilston wrote: »

Healy is still pretty essential.

If he is then it’s due to failure of other players to succeed him.

He’s not the player he was a few years ago. Contribution around the park has diminished in recent games. Ed Byrne is handy around the park but I don’t think he’s a great solution at the moment. Kilcoyne’s injury is unfortunate as he should have been pushing to take that jersey.

Nothing wrong with giving the options game time. Bealam wasn’t great at the weekend but I’m fine with the experiment

Former Former Former · 30-11-2020 5:23pm

Honestly, the biggest change required in the next few years is for the fans to accept that the current batch of players might not be as good as their predecessors.

ionadnapokot · 30-11-2020 5:24pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

If he is then it’s due to failure of other players to succeed him.

He’s not the player he was a few years ago. Contribution around the park has diminished in recent games. Ed Byrne is handy around the park but I don’t think he’s a great solution at the moment. Kilcoyne’s injury is unfortunate as he should have been pushing to take that jersey.

Nothing wrong with giving the options game time. Bealam wasn’t great at the weekend but I’m fine with the experiment

I'd go as far to say that it was selection based on hope only. Wing & a prayer stuff.
That was the latest in a number of selections that shows Farrell shortcomings as a selector. Its the toughest part of his job.
But just very naive to think Bealham could switch back to LH after a 4 year gap. v Georgia of all teams!
Ok O’Sullivan was late into camp (also Farrell’s fault – played 72 mins v Scarlets the day after England game) but at least he can play LH.

The reliance on Healy is a result of Farrell playing him and not giving viable alternatives like O'Sullivan or even Cronin prior to the Georgia game.

Now we have Scotland before 6N opener v Wales
Is Bealham going to play again or even bench ahead of O'Sullivan? I should hope not.

AbusesToilets · 30-11-2020 5:27pm

ionadnapokot wrote: »

I'd go as far to say that it was selection based on hope only. Wing & a prayer stuff.
That was the latest in a number of selections that shows Farrell shortcomings as a selector. Its the toughest part of his job.
But just very naive to think Bealham could switch back to LH after a 4 year gap. v Georgia of all teams!
Ok O’Sullivan was late into camp (also Farrell’s fault – played 72 mins v Scarlets the day after England game) but at least he can play LH.

The reliance on Healy is a result of Farrell playing him and not giving viable alternatives like O'Sullivan or even Cronin prior to the Georgia game.

Now we have Scotland before 6N opener v Wales
Is Bealham going to play again or even bench ahead of O'Sullivan? I should hope not.

Continually baffled that Buckley is left out in the cold, if Healy deemed to be past it. He's at least as good as any of the other options available.

30-11-2020 5:38pm

Former Former Former wrote: »

Honestly, the biggest change required in the next few years is for the fans to accept that the current batch of players might not be as good as their predecessors.

yes

but the delusion is strong in more than a few

other nations have moved forward in comparison with stronger squads and indeed coaching competence also

ionadnapokot · 30-11-2020 5:42pm

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Continually baffled that Buckley is left out in the cold, if Healy deemed to be past it. He's at least as good as any of the other options available.

I agree.
He was clearly not for Joe.
But to continue with Healy during this nothing tournament which culminates in Belham having to switch to LH is an indictment of the short term thinking displayed by Farrell.

One or two of O'Sullivan, Buckley or Cronin should have had at least 120mins of rugby this Autumn.
What happens if Healy gets injured for 6N?
Who covers Ed Byrne?
They'll prob switch Porter back to LH!

redmca2 · 30-11-2020 6:17pm

How come Jack McGrath is not in the conversation?
Was he not a Lion starter 32 years ago?

UAEguy2020 · 30-11-2020 6:25pm

Former Former Former wrote: »

Honestly, the biggest change required in the next few years is for the fans to accept that the current batch of players might not be as good as their predecessors.

Weather that’s the case or not is irrelevant, the players aren’t playing anywhere near as well as they are capable of, that’s the point here.

b.gud · 30-11-2020 6:29pm

redmca2 wrote: »

How come Jack McGrath is not in the conversation?
Was he not a Lion starter 32 years ago?

I didn't think there was a Lions test in 1988

UAEguy2020 · 30-11-2020 6:32pm

Like most of the Irish players he has gone really soft in the last 18 months.

El_Duderino 09 · 30-11-2020 6:32pm

I think there is something in the idea that the players just aren’t as good as the ones before them. Lots of 6or7/10 players to choose from but not many players who will challenge for Lions places.

Also, why do we think Ryan is the next captain? He shown no outward signs of being a big personality. He’s a very good player, no doubt about that, but why captain? He seems like more of an introvert who will do his job all day long, but I haven’t seen any signs that he’s suited to captaincy.

Dog Botherer · 30-11-2020 6:33pm

redmca2 wrote: »

How come Jack McGrath is not in the conversation?
Was he not a Lion starter 32 years ago?

like Jordi, he doesn’t play for Leinster anymore. they don’t call him “Face Doesn’t Fit” Farrell for nothing.

Bazzo · 30-11-2020 6:34pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I think there is something in the idea that the players just aren’t as good as the ones before them. Lots of 6or7/10 players to choose from but not many players who will challenge for Lions places.

Also, why do we think Ryan is the next captain? He shown no outward signs of being a big personality. He’s a very good player, no doubt about that, but why captain? He seems like more of an introvert who will do his job all day long, but I haven’t seen any signs that he’s suited to captaincy.

He captained probably our most successful u20 side of all time.

Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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