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Refereeing standards.
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I think every video ref system should be on the managers call, American Football and tennis have great setups that if the manager want to challenge a decision they alert the ref, tell them what they think is the problem and then it's reviewed, if it's upheld they get their challenge back they keep it if they don't they loose it. Problem with GAA is there are so many fouls that there's very rarely a passage of play without a foul somewhere on the pitch
Both sports are very stop start in nature, which lends to its use.
GAA, no, the games are fast paced, free flowing, 30 players, so much going on, so physical... it’s a super emotive and competitive game because of the traditions, intensity... you’d have managers using them tactically too, if you have two reviews say left as a manager, five minutes left on the clock, but your lead is down from five points to two, many chancers would be calling for a review for some innocuous nonsense just to take the wind out of the sails of the opposition... clock stopped during the process but so is the momentum of the chasing team... the leaders have all their lads over to the sidelines getting a tactical pep talk, a gee up, a rest, water... while the chasing team loose the momentum they had...
Tennis, rugby, nfl, have dynamics that suit, gaa doesn’t... football, camogie or hurling...0 -
I think the standard has been good this year.
No major controversies and most of the big calls have been correct.
I would be in favour of micing up the refs, it would make his decisions more transparent and hopefully cut down on the noise from the barstool "rules experts" which referees are bound to hear/read about.
Hopefully it would make players think twice before whinging about decisions if they know they are being heard by everyone.
Timekeeping needs to be done independently also to reduce workload and controversy.0 -
padd b1975 wrote: »I think the standard has been good this year.
No major controversies and most of the big calls have been correct.
I would be in favour of micing up the refs, it would make his decisions more transparent and hopefully cut down on the noise from the barstool "rules experts" which referees are bound to hear/read about.
Hopefully it would make players think twice before whinging about decisions if they know they are being heard by everyone.
Timekeeping needs to be done independently also to reduce workload and controversy.
Couldn’t be done, there would be an outcry from players and indeed officials...id be with them....also a bit too much f-bombing and some for 3.30 on a Sunday.
To be honest, it’s getting a bit too ‘reality tv’. I don’t care who says what... just that the right calls are made...0 -
Smacruairi wrote: »That's a bit extreme. If a player misses a peno do you never let him play again? No point in him playing sure.
That’s an entirely different scenario and nothing to do with referees or rules.
A red herring.
Please stick to the question of bad refereeing.
If what happened in that game yesterday happened in an All-Ireland Final there’d be hell to play. It will happen in time, it happened in a Leinster Football Final and there was uproar on the field after the game yet nothing of note was done. An All-Ireland Final will be a different kettle of fish.0 -
Two wrong decisions by the referee in Downs favour also had a massive impact on the result of the game also. The Down goal came from the referee awarding a mark to a Down player who caught a kick out and carried it over the sideline when the ball hadn't passed over the 45 yard line from the kickout. It should have been a sideline kick for Cavan.
The Cavan forward Martin Reilly broke through two tackles while being fouled and had a one on one with the Down goalkeeper from a few yards out. Instead of the referee giving him the advantage he blew straight away for the free denying Cavan the advantage but of course neither of these incidents were shown on the Sunday game tonight.
Ya, fair enough. I didn't see the game, just the Sunday game highlights.
But I'd still make the point that it would be good to have some sort of video mechanism to challenge major game changing decisions or events
e.g. the Cork goal vs Kerry last weekend if it had been a foul or square ball, it would have been a desperate way to be knocked out of the championship
(It was a perfectly good goal - just a hypothetical situation)0 -
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As long as I have been alive people have been complaining about referees, the OP could have been written any time in the last 20 years.0
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bucketybuck wrote: »As long as I have been alive people have been complaining about referees, the OP could have been written any time in the last 20 years.
Indeed. Yet poor officiating is allowed continue unabated.
People say referees are only human, if you keep complaining then nobody will become a referee, the game is very fast, etc etc etc.
I have not the tiniest doubt it’ll be the same in another 20 years.
Why would they try to fix it if everyone accepts and expects it unlike the way other organisations have tried to step up and fix theirs.
Anything will do in the GAA it seems.0 -
bucketybuck wrote: »As long as I have been alive people have been complaining about referees, the OP could have been written any time in the last 20 years.
Its an impossible game to ref. If every foul is blown, the ref will be widely criticised so instead a lot is left go e.g. the outrageous way Aidan O'Shea was treated yesterday. hes a big man so is expected to take all sorts of abuse (and I'm not a Mayo man).0 -
crossman47 wrote: »Its an impossible game to ref. If every foul is blown, the ref will be widely criticised so instead a lot is left go e.g. the outrageous way Aidan O'Shea was treated yesterday. hes a big man so is expected to take all sorts of abuse (and I'm not a Mayo man).
In the Cavan v Down game the big calls, there were 3, were not dealt with according to the rules by the referee. I’m not a Cavan man.0 -
tayto lover wrote: »For me this is one of the biggest problems the GAA has and it needs to be addressed.
Since the debacle in the Louth v Meath Leinster Final of 2010 I have been watching the performances of referees and have seen many very poor performances. Teams train hard, travel long distances to train, diet properly and give up their time missing out on many family occasions in an effort to win things for their counties. The players deserve better.
Today I watched the Cavan v Down match and the referee was extremely poor.
He allowed a Mark inside the 45 which should have ended up a lineball to Cavan which ended up a Down goal, allowed a Down forward the advantage to go ahead and score the goal after being fouled. No problem with the advantage but he denied a Cavan forward the same advantage when about to shoot for goal bringing him back for free kick.
It was so bad I thought he had backed Down.
I have seen many more instances of poor refereeing in the last 10 years.
Time the GAA addressed the issue of poor refereeing.
Can you recall many incidents of good refereeing as there nearly always is just posts criticising referees who had poor games.The speed of the game has a big impact on how the ref can manage it. These players are at a serious level of fitness.
the biggest problem is that the ref has 6 other officials who don't seem to assist him.It's a terrible, thankless job and anyone who thinks that the intercounty ref isn't up to it I would suggest going down to your local club and trying it for yourself, event at underage or junior level it's an extremely difficult job. At intercounty level the game is so fast its impossible for 1 person to keep up with it and I don't think 2 refs would help, the ref being at ground level in the middle of the action is a major problem in my opinion. Personally I'd like to see a ref advisor up in the stand, being high up could keep an eye on everything while allow the ref concentrate on technical fouls.
I would also be looking to take as many decisions out of the refs hands as possible, taking control of the time and score out of their hands could be an easy win. Another major problem is the fact that there are so many rules and a lot of the rules are up to interupation or for the ref to judge the players intent.
Having many rules being interpreted isnt really an issue as its always going to be case.Comic Book Guy wrote: »This a hundred times. Definitely think the linesmen could be given more responsibility to make calls on decisions that happen much closer to them than the ref.
Like in soccer where a foul along the sideline that might be out of the referees line of sight is brought to his attention straight away by a simple waving of a flag.
Like others have said it's a thankless job but there is such a range in capabilities at the very highest level from week to week.
David Gough is miles ahead of his colleagues. A lot of it seems to come from his ability to read a game and know where play is going to develop. He is able to consistently call a defender for off the ball shirt pull just before the pass goes in that direction.Smacruairi wrote: »Rugby has built in stoppages, diff restarts depending on evidence.
Gaa does not.padd b1975 wrote: »I think the standard has been good this year.
No major controversies and most of the big calls have been correct.
I would be in favour of micing up the refs, it would make his decisions more transparent and hopefully cut down on the noise from the barstool "rules experts" which referees are bound to hear/read about.
Hopefully it would make players think twice before whinging about decisions if they know they are being heard by everyone.
Timekeeping needs to be done independently also to reduce workload and controversy.Couldn’t be done, there would be an outcry from players and indeed officials...id be with them....also a bit too much f-bombing and some for 3.30 on a Sunday.
To be honest, it’s getting a bit too ‘reality tv’. I don’t care who says what... just that the right calls are made...
If it made some players think twice about what they say on pitch at times then thats a good thing. No?0 -
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Just on the giving linesmen and umpire more powers.
1.sometimes there's a reason they are on the sideline and not in the middle..
2. When you're in the middle of the pitch you have a 3d view, when you're on the sideline and behind the goal you have a 2d view. The last thing you want is lads with a far worse view of something offering you an opinion, that's why you don't see guys getting involved from 80yards away.
3. There will always be bad decisions. We accept this in practically every walk of life except refereeing. No one sets out to make a mistake, it happens. Why do players think there's some shadowy agenda? No one wants to make a mistake, you spend hours training, attending seminars, doing ****e matches in **** grounds when you make a mistake at a bigger level etc. Everyone is trying to get better and do their best like? Isn't that the amateur code of the gaa?0 -
Smacruairi wrote: »Just on the giving linesmen and umpire more powers.
1.sometimes there's a reason they are on the sideline and not in the middle..
2. When you're in the middle of the pitch you have a 3d view, when you're on the sideline and behind the goal you have a 2d view. The last thing you want is lads with a far worse view of something offering you an opinion, that's why you don't see guys getting involved from 80yards away.
3. There will always be bad decisions. We accept this in practically every walk of life except refereeing. No one sets out to make a mistake, it happens. Why do players think there's some shadowy agenda? No one wants to make a mistake, you spend hours training, attending seminars, doing ****e matches in **** grounds when you make a mistake at a bigger level etc. Everyone is trying to get better and do their best like? Isn't that the amateur code of the gaa?
Not always will the ref have the best view and the linesmen can assist and help make the best decision.
Of course mistakes will be made/bad decisions happen but thats why you use all the resources available to make the best decision and that has to include making better use of the 6 extra officials on the pitch.0 -
The Lost Sheep wrote: »Linesmen are qualified officials as much as the people in the middle and can be expected to be reffing games regularly as well.
Not always will the ref have the best view and the linesmen can assist and help make the best decision.
Of course mistakes will be made/bad decisions happen but thats why you use all the resources available to make the best decision and that has to include making better use of the 6 extra officials on the pitch.
Right, to give you an example.
Middle of the park, tackle, ref says no foul. Player breaking away, linesman says "foul foul". Does the ref give it, he was closer and felt he had the better view. What if he gives it and the linesman was wrong?now what? What if that player breaking was through on goal? What if he had a team mate come and support him from defence, but then you go back for a foul and he is now out of position because thr other team now want to take a kick quickly.
My experience was with soccer so I can't comment on the intricacies of GAA but the point im sure carries across most codes. You try to use your colleagues as much as possible, there are zones on the pitch, discrete signals that most fans wouldn't recognise etc, but mistakes will still be made. I would argue that most decisions are right. Sure you have awful ones, but you've awful decisions from players, managers too. Happens. That's life.0 -
Smacruairi wrote: »Right, to give you an example.
Middle of the park, tackle, ref says no foul. Player breaking away, linesman says "foul foul". Does the ref give it, he was closer and felt he had the better view. What if he gives it and the linesman was wrong?now what? What if that player breaking was through on goal? What if he had a team mate come and support him from defence, but then you go back for a foul and he is now out of position because thr other team now want to take a kick quickly.
My experience was with soccer so I can't comment on the intricacies of GAA but the point im sure carries across most codes.
What would you want to be done then to improve things? Yes there can be mistakes but if there is procedures to follow and linesmen can only make calls in specific circumstances then you do that.0 -
The Lost Sheep wrote: »I ref rugby. Played all the others. Well up to the GAA central council etc to make whatever changed needed.
What would you want to be done then to improve things? Yes there can be mistakes but if there is procedures to follow and linesmen can only make calls in specific circumstances then you do that.
You keep training, coaching, educating referees, support, encourage (punish if very necessary!). But I think accepting that you will never have a perfect match is key. If you ref rugby then you'll know the situation where you've had to read body language, go on the balance of probabilities, just get a hunch and go with it. Im also sure you've got things wrong too, and some decisions you knew were right despite no one believing you.
I think rugby with its advantage law it gives so much more leeway to the game. If you could answer what you would do in my no win hypothetical for gaa above you might see the challenges.
think harsher retrospective actions for players for cheating, for violent conduct, for internationally circumventing the laws would help a lot. Technology for offsides /hawkeye etc is obviously great. But the more tech comes in, the more it slows down the game. VAR is killing the spirit of the laws of the game.0 -
Smacruairi wrote: »You keep training, coaching, educating referees, support, encourage (punish if very necessary!). But I think accepting that you will never have a perfect match is key. If you ref rugby then you'll know the situation where you've had to read body language, go on the balance of probabilities, just get a hunch and go with it. Im also sure you've got things wrong too, and some decisions you knew were right despite no one believing you.
I think rugby with its advantage law it gives so much more leeway to the game. If you could answer what you would do in my no win hypothetical for gaa above you might see the challenges.
think harsher retrospective actions for players for cheating, for violent conduct, for internationally circumventing the laws would help a lot. Technology for offsides /hawkeye etc is obviously great. But the more tech comes in, the more it slows down the game. VAR is killing the spirit of the laws of the game.
What training do most referees get? Yes that needs improving at all levels in GAA.
Technology should always be used as available. I will always take having a game a tiny bit slower where the correct decision is made then continue on with no technology and have clear mistakes from players/officials not caught. And a game will never be slowed down by much with technology being used anyway.0 -
The Lost Sheep wrote: »You over rule the linesmen. Which you can do in rugby.
What training do most referees get? Yes that needs improving at all levels in GAA.
Technology should always be used as available. I will always take having a game a tiny bit slower where the correct decision is made then continue on with no technology and have clear mistakes from players/officials not caught. And a game will never be slowed down by much with technology being used anyway.
Sometimes the ref is right to over rule, sometimes he is wrong. That's the whole point of my argument about every decision being a committee decision, no it doesn't work like. You have fans here saying "he got it wrong he should have gone over to check", but if he went over to check and the assistant was wrong, the same fans would say "what was he asking for". Literally can't win, and you won't win.
What training do refs get, is that a serious question? You're a rugby referee, have you not had fitness sessions, then local panel sessions, national panel sessions, video analysis, laws of the game tests on a yearly basis at least?
You say tiny bit slower, but yet we have decisions taking 3 minutes or so to be made. How many times can that be done? You could challenge practically every dribble in gaa football for steps sure, no goals would be allowed for one, and I say that as a fan of Dublins kev mc!
Technology works with rugby because its a phased game, attrition, very very few intercepts. Gaa is far more end to end.0 -
Smacruairi wrote: »Sometimes the ref is right to over rule, sometimes he is wrong. That's the whole point of my argument about every decision being a committee decision, no it doesn't work like. You have fans here saying "he got it wrong he should have gone over to check", but if he went over to check and the assistant was wrong, the same fans would say "what was he asking for". Literally can't win, and you won't win.
What training do refs get, is that a serious question? You're a rugby referee, have you not had fitness sessions, then local panel sessions, national panel sessions, video analysis, laws of the game tests on a yearly basis at least?
You say tiny bit slower, but yet we have decisions taking 3 minutes or so to be made. How many times can that be done? You could channel practically every dribble in gaa football for steps sure, no goals would be allowed for one, and I say that as a fan of Dublins kev mc!
Technology works with rugby because its a phased game, attrition, very very few intercepts. Gaa is far more end to end.
Im asking what training do GAA refs get on regular basis? Can you tell me?
3 minutes to get a decision right is a million times better than a wrong decision being made in 10 seconds.
We do our own fitness sessions. we have group fitness sessions for those who want it but mainly its on your own. we have occasional tests of laws but there isnt a major laws test. main way of coaching and improving referees is an experienced ref/former ref will watch you and give you feedback on your game with feedback in variety areas of game.
You need to use technology to assist the refs because the game is so end to end. The game is end to end therefore refs will miss plenty and is even more a reason technology should be used to assist the right decisions being made.0 -
The Lost Sheep wrote: »I never have said or implied every decision is a committee meeting or should be.
Im asking what training do GAA refs get on regular basis? Can you tell me?
3 minutes to get a decision right is a million times better than a wrong decision being made in 10 seconds.
We do our own fitness sessions. we have group fitness sessions for those who want it but mainly its on your own. we have occasional tests of laws but there isnt a major laws test. main way of coaching and improving referees is an experienced ref/former ref will watch you and give you feedback on your game with feedback in variety areas of game.
You need to use technology to assist the refs because the game is so end to end. The game is end to end therefore refs will miss plenty and is even more a reason technology should be used to assist the right decisions being made.
I was at a lecture from David coldrick who said fitness sessions were solo but monthly panel training seminars weekly video analysis sessions, weekend seminars and that was just the stuff that was mandatory. Then his game would be assessed from the stand, assessed after on video and mistakes highlighted and good moves shown. Certain players and their shall we say dark arts inclinations sent to ref panel etc.
So in my example again, tackle midfield, some ppl think foul, some people think not, when do you want technology to be brought in. The game could still be in play for the next 2 mins before the crucial point or goal. Do you then go back and check for that foul?0 -
Smacruairi wrote: »So in my example again, tackle midfield, some ppl think foul, some people think not, when do you want technology to be brought in. The game could still be in play for the next 2 mins before the crucial point or goal. Do you then go back and check for that foul?
In all honesty, the main problem is the tackle. There is a rule but refs leave a lot go. If they blew for every foul, they would whistle all day. Define the tackle more clearly as only playing the ball or a fair shoulder. Fellows are getting punched around the chest and stomach and not getting a free.0 -
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Smacruairi wrote: »I was at a lecture from David coldrick who said fitness sessions were solo but monthly panel training seminars weekly video analysis sessions, weekend seminars and that was just the stuff that was mandatory. Then his game would be assessed from the stand, assessed after on video and mistakes highlighted and good moves shown. Certain players and their shall we say dark arts inclinations sent to ref panel etc.
So in my example again, tackle midfield, some ppl think foul, some people think not, when do you want technology to be brought in. The game could still be in play for the next 2 mins before the crucial point or goal. Do you then go back and check for that foul?
For games with tv have review so continue play and bring back if necessary. The ref is sole decider of law with the rest of officials able to advise. Stopping play can help things move better in the long term within games.0 -
If you have to use a game from 10 years ago to complain about refs then things aren't so bad. I know from experience the amount of talking that goes on in the ear pieces in a match is serious. I was listening to an interview with David Gough recently and he was saying that the national panel have to sit a test on the rules and its a 90% pass rate. Something like 47 out of 50 questions right to pass and there is a time limit on them. The information on the level of training is out there if you go and look for it and like the players it is a serious commitment for an amateur game.0
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If you have to use a game from 10 years ago to complain about refs then things aren't so bad. I know from experience the amount of talking that goes on in the ear pieces in a match is serious. I was listening to an interview with David Gough recently and he was saying that the national panel have to sit a test on the rules and its a 90% pass rate. Something like 47 out of 50 questions right to pass and there is a time limit on them. The information on the level of training is out there if you go and look for it and like the players it is a serious commitment for an amateur game.
The game mentioned from 10 years ago was mentioned to show that nothing of note has actually changed. Refereeing is still putrid imo.
The referee and linesman in the Cavan v Down game last Sunday didn’t seem to know the rule on the Mark.0 -
tayto lover wrote: »The game mentioned from 10 years ago was mentioned to show that nothing of note has actually changed. Refereeing is still putrid imo.
The referee and linesman in the Cavan v Down game last Sunday didn’t seem to know the rule on the Mark.
I think the key word there is, "in your opinion". I don't know these guys from Adam, I'm only a casual gaa fan, but I think Croke himself could come on here and say the refs are doing grand and you'd still have an issue0 -
Smacruairi wrote: »I think the key word there is, "in your opinion". I don't know these guys from Adam, I'm only a casual gaa fan, but I think Croke himself could come on here and say the refs are doing grand and you'd still have an issue
I only comment on games I see and the poor refereeing I see.
It’s all about opinions.
Mine is no more important than anyone else’s.0 -
What was the good refereeing you'd comment on0
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Smacruairi wrote: »What was the good refereeing you'd comment on
A referee knowing the rules and being fair to both teams ie if he gives advantage to one team then he does the same to the other. Both teams being treated the same way, neither can complain. Unlike last Sunday’s game.
You a referee yourself?0 -
Unfortunately the Top of the GAA want refs to be able to draw matches when big crowds are involved for financial reasons obviously. This is why very often big teams with big followings get the big calls either to keep them in it or to progress and keep the money rolling in to the coffers. Video refs would'nt help this and could cost the GAA. Its all for the greater good im sure.0
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Semi Final Champions wrote: »Unfortunately the Top of the GAA want refs to be able to draw matches when big crowds are involved for financial reasons obviously. This is why very often big teams with big followings get the big calls either to keep them in it or to progress and keep the money rolling in to the coffers. Video refs would'nt help this and could cost the GAA. Its all for the greater good im sure.
You think there's a conspiracy theory from the gaa to appoint referees who "look after" big teams. You don't think that in the hundred years the game has been played that one former ref would have blown the whistle, to use a pun, on that type of conduct?0 -
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Smacruairi wrote: »You think there's a conspiracy theory from the gaa to appoint referees who "look after" big teams. You don't think that in the hundred years the game has been played that one former ref would have blown the whistle, to use a pun, on that type of conduct?
They won't blow the whistle on themselves, but they know if they miss the opportunity to level a game or they put a big team out in a close call where they could have let it run for an equaliser (for maybe even 7 or 8 minutes + which has happened) they might not get the whistle again. The dogs on the street know it.0
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