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The current trend of removing cash is a serious mistake

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    #872
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 29,031 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    Phishnet wrote: »
    Where society is going, you won’t need cash.

    ...so we can accurately predict future outcomes?


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    #873
    PHG
    Registered Users Posts: 475 ✭✭PHG


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    ...so we can accurately predict future outcomes?

    Is it not highly likely though in modern society once the older generations who feel safe with physical cash disappear?

    I live in Sweden and have not used cash here in 2 years. Could not tell you what the different notes or coins look like. Most shops in Stockholm do not accept cash!! Its incredibly easy.

    Even the musicians on the street and some beggars have a tap and go device with them.


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    #874
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 29,031 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    PHG wrote: »
    Is it not highly likely though in modern society once the older generations who feel safe with physical cash disappear?

    I live in Sweden and have not used cash here in 2 years. Could not tell you what the different notes or coins look like. Most shops in Stockholm do not accept cash!! Its incredibly easy.

    Even the musicians on the street and some beggars have a tap and go device with them.

    the previous crash has shown us a lot, including, theres no certainties in regards banking and money, yes we re currently moving towards a more digital monetary system, but it wouldnt take much for confidence to collapse in this format either, theres no guarantees here, theres a healthy scepticism with full digital systems also


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    #875
    Strumms
    Registered Users Posts: 24,998 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    Simply people should be of the option to use cash or card.

    If my wallet get dropped or nicked. I’m screwed under a cashless system. I’m about a week to ten days (open to correction) from reporting the loss / theft to having a card and pin... access to my money.

    I still need food, petrol, pay my gym membership, house insurance, sky subscription etc.

    Fûck having no cash. Having cash and the ability to use cash is a fundamental of a democratic society.....this democratic society. Outlawing cash is anti democratic.

    I’d say the first politician to suggest going cashless or the first organization head to advocate it might end up being pulled head first out of the tolka.

    In a free democratic society, cash is important... no way would we or should we be seeking to do away with our rights and freedoms, just to suit businesses and banks.


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    #876
    PHG
    Registered Users Posts: 475 ✭✭PHG


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    the previous crash has shown us a lot, including, theres no certainties in regards banking and money, yes we re currently moving towards a more digital monetary system, but it wouldnt take much for confidence to collapse in this format either, theres no guarantees here, theres a healthy scepticism with full digital systems also

    The banking Guarantee of up savings up 100K backed by the ECB of the guarantee which came out of the crisis. What would make confidence slip?

    I fail to see why people would be skeptic and cannot see any skepticism excl. the older generation (who are so used to cash so understandable) and the odd younger person.

    If the banks go under and the monetary system failed, whether you had cash in your hand or in the bank will not matter as it would be deemed worthless.


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    #877
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 29,031 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    PHG wrote: »
    The banking Guarantee of up savings up 100K backed by the ECB of the guarantee which came out of the crisis. What would make confidence slip?

    I fail to see why people would be skeptic and cannot see any skepticism excl. the older generation (who are so used to cash so understandable) and the odd younger person.

    If the banks go under and the monetary system failed, whether you had cash in your hand or in the bank will not matter as it would be deemed worthless.

    it ultimately comes down to control, under current controls, and particularly after 08, theres now an astonishing level of skepticism towards all systems, hence the explosion in alternatives, crytos etc. we must never forget what occurred in countries such as greece, potentially handing your monetary system over to a predominately digital system, is lethal, i find it disturbing, many dont see this!


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    #878
    Strumms
    Registered Users Posts: 24,998 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    PHG wrote: »
    The banking Guarantee of up savings up 100K backed by the ECB of the guarantee which came out of the crisis. What would make confidence slip?

    I fail to see why people would be skeptic and cannot see any skepticism excl. the older generation (who are so used to cash so understandable) and the odd younger person.

    If the banks go under and the monetary system failed, whether you had cash in your hand or in the bank will not matter as it would be deemed worthless.

    So we remain of the option and ability to use legal tender.

    What happens if I’m out tonight (non covid world) for a pint with my mate in town... we are about to go our separate ways when he realizes that he’s dropped or has had his wallet nicked... it’s no use me giving him a score to get home, it’s cashless society.

    A cashless society is not practical. It’s not fair. Literally the only beneficiary is businesses. They are there for US not the other way around.


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    #879
    PHG
    Registered Users Posts: 475 ✭✭PHG


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    it ultimately comes down to control, under current controls, and particularly after 08, theres now an astonishing level of skepticism towards all systems, hence the explosion in alternatives, crytos etc. we must never forget what occurred in countries such as greece, potentially handing your monetary system over to a predominately digital system, is lethal, i find it disturbing, many dont see this!

    I can see your point regarding Cryptos.

    The problem of Greece was very much self inflicted and cooked their own books. they had it coming and that is not being harsh.


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    #880
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 29,031 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    PHG wrote: »
    I can see your point regarding Cryptos.

    The problem of Greece was very much self inflicted and cooked their own books. they had it coming and that is not being harsh.

    i both agree and disagree, theres fundamental design flaws with the whole euro system, we have no true surplus recycling mechanism in place, like countries such as america and australia, this was noted before its introduction but was ignored. this was working reasonably well before 08, but as was noted before its introduction, these issues would surface during a crisis, and it did. we have since pretended everything is just fine with the euro currency system, it ll probably eventually fail, we just dont know exactly when, where and how, it ll fail


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    #881
    PHG
    Registered Users Posts: 475 ✭✭PHG


    Strumms wrote: »
    So we remain of the option and ability to use legal tender.

    What happens if I’m out tonight (non covid world) for a pint with my mate in town... we are about to go our separate ways when he realizes that he’s dropped or has had his wallet nicked... it’s no use me giving him a score to get home, it’s cashless society.

    A cashless society is not practical. It’s not fair. Literally the only beneficiary is businesses. They are there for US not the other way around.

    Here a system called Swish is mainly used but at home I would safely say most of the people in my age bracket (30's and below) also have Revolut or N26. I do not bring a wallet with me anywhere here, all transactions are done by tapping my phone and I can pick which account I want to take it from. Even going out for a meal we can use functions like split the bill which auto takes from everyones accounts in one go. Other people use watches or tablets to pay. If I lose my wallet, I can freeze all my cards instantly and create virtual replacement cards until I have found or completely given up finding my other cards. If I lose my phone I can get online via friends phone or my laptop and freeze the lot.

    There is also the danger of people seeing you key in your pin, phones now use biometrics which is safer.

    So your friend would have their score in seconds to their app. I think some banks also let you get cash from the atm if you lose your wallet via their apps.

    If you lose cash, it is likely gone.

    A cashless society is highly practical and efficient. Why is it not fair? I have not said stop today as not fair on the older generations but definitely should be phased out.

    So you think taking cash out of the ATM is not benefitting the bank considering they charge you for the pleasure of using the atm? Banks have to make money though Irish bank charges are shockingly high.


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    #882
    Dodge
    Registered Users Posts: 10,214 ✭✭✭✭Dodge


    Strumms wrote: »

    If my wallet get dropped or nicked. I’m screwed under a cashless system.

    It’s the opposite. If you only have cash it’s gone and you’re not getting it back. If it’s virtual, you lose nothing and soon enough most people will have no delay at all as they’ll be paying via their phone and that’ll change instantly

    This ridiculous notion that cash makes a country democratic is hilarious too

    (Not that Ireland will go ever go cashless - just another thing that won’t happen but people to get mad about on here)


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    #883
    Strumms
    Registered Users Posts: 24,998 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    Dodge wrote: »
    It’s the opposite. If you only have cash it’s gone and you’re not getting it back. If it’s virtual, you lose nothing and soon enough most people will have no delay at all as they’ll be paying via their phone and that’ll change instantly

    This ridiculous notion that cash makes a country democratic is hilarious too

    (Not that Ireland will go ever go cashless - just another thing that won’t happen but people to get mad about on here)

    If your phone dies ?

    The world cash report in 2018 came to the conclusion...

    “From a user’s perspective, one could argue there shouldn’t be any competition between cash versus non-cash, nor should it be an either/or proposition. There is simply a need to make payments in all circumstances and this need is fully fulfilled by both cash and non-cash payment instruments.”

    Also, the issue of privacy.

    What happens in a type 9/11 scenario in a cashless society, or a run of the mill power outage... digital infrastructures down, business have no way to process payments, payments cannot be made by customers who therefore cannot access goods and services they NEED ? Cashless society ? Forget it, don’t want it.

    Cash is here to stay. People CAN if they want use a card or phone but to encourage a cashless society, they have the option but I think there will be too much of an objection worldwide to cashless.


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    #884
    PHG
    Registered Users Posts: 475 ✭✭PHG


    Strumms wrote: »
    If your phone dies ?

    The world cash report in 2018 came to the conclusion...

    “From a user’s perspective, one could argue there shouldn’t be any competition between cash versus non-cash, nor should it be an either/or proposition. There is simply a need to make payments in all circumstances and this need is fully fulfilled by both cash and non-cash payment instruments.”

    Also, the issue of privacy.

    What happens in a type 9/11 scenario in a cashless society, or a run of the mill power outage... digital infrastructures down, business have no way to process payments, payments cannot be made by customers who therefore cannot access goods and services they NEED ? Cashless society ? Forget it, don’t want it.

    Cash is here to stay. People CAN if they want use a card or phone but to encourage a cashless society, they have the option but I think there will be too much of an objection worldwide to cashless.

    not too sure why you think it is so scary.

    Do you think everything is on one server :pac:. There are disaster recovery and failover systems in every bank and major IT firm and back up generators for power outages.. Bankcentre in Ballsbridge and all the IT firms in Grand Canal Dock could get hit with an asteroid right now and it would not affect your bank balance or internet browsing in any way. How would a 9/11 scenario effect any payments, really I would like to know?

    A bit of info for you, the NYSE is not in NY but trades out of Jersey where the servers are. Even some high frequency trades on the NYSE go through DErry as there are faster connections there than in the US.

    There will always be some minor cash in society (I mean developed and I don't object to it, just seems inefficient) but it is decreasing quickly. A digital society also helps to combat the black market (though there are ways around it).

    Considering Sweden and the Noridcs are moving fast to cashless and you can buy anything in the shop with a tap and go, where are all the objections? You will get the minority and the conspiracy theorist but FB, Instagram, even whatsapp will take more information form you than a bank. The banks developers are not near as slick as the social media ones and I am sure there are plenty regulations to stop too much intrusive from banks.


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    #885
    El Tarangu
    Registered Users Posts: 1,616 ✭✭✭El Tarangu


    Strumms wrote: »

    What happens in a type 9/11 scenario in a cashless society, or a run of the mill power outage... digital infrastructures down, business have no way to process payments, payments cannot be made by customers who therefore cannot access goods and services they NEED ? Cashless society ? Forget it, don’t want it.

    What happened to credit card payments after 9/11?

    In the case of a power cut, a lot of shops wouldn't be able to use their electronic tills, etc - however a customer could still pay the shopkeeper so long as both of them had smartphones (I guess the shop would need to have a few powerbanks on hand) - the servers processing financial data would have redundancies and backup generators, so would still be able to stay online, even in the event of a big localised power outage.


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    #886
    Strumms
    Registered Users Posts: 24,998 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    I see the points for cashless, it suits ‘some’ businesses, massive savings can and will be made that nada will be passed onto consumers.... less staff, equipment, bank and security costs, cheaper insurance....

    I’m simply NOT of the mind or want to inconvenience myself or others for nothing in return so fûck them... I want the ‘option’ to enter into a cash transaction with businesses. Don’t want my cash ? I’ll take it somewhere that wants it.


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    #887
    Strumms
    Registered Users Posts: 24,998 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    El Tarangu wrote: »
    What happened to credit card payments after 9/11?

    In the case of a power cut, a lot of shops wouldn't be able to use their electronic tills, etc - however a customer could still pay the shopkeeper so long as both of them had smartphones (I guess the shop would need to have a few powerbanks on hand) - the servers processing financial data would have redundancies and backup generators, so would still be able to stay online, even in the event of a big localised power outage.

    I’ve worked in a scenario where during a powercut, we simply resorted to plan B... called a neighboring office for a quote for the customer, when they accepted the quote and paid the money their receipt was emailed to them on confirmation of payment.


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    #888
    3d4life
    Registered Users Posts: 834 ✭✭✭3d4life


    PHG wrote: »
    not too sure why you think it is so scary.

    Do you think everything is on one server :pac:. There are disaster recovery and failover systems in every bank and major IT firm and back up generators for power outages.. Bankcentre in Ballsbridge .........


    :confused:









    :D:D:D


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    #889
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users Posts: 11,762 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    When I was in America in October last year I went to visit my cousin who lives there. She has an emergency pack in her car for emergencies such as earthquakes, fires, civil unrest even.

    I got curious and asked her what's in it and she said water purification tablets and other survival stuff. There's also a shotgun in it and a small pile of cash. I asked her about the cash end of things and she said that if sh1t goes down like a massive earthquake or something takes out the power network, or if there is civil unrest, what good will a credit card be. She had a point.


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    #890
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,320 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    PHG wrote: »
    not too sure why you think it is so scary.

    Do you think everything is on one server :pac:. There are disaster recovery and failover systems in every bank and major IT firm and back up generators for power outages.. Bankcentre in Ballsbridge and all the IT firms in Grand Canal Dock could get hit with an asteroid right now and it would not affect your bank balance or internet browsing in any way. How would a 9/11 scenario effect any payments, really I would like to know?

    A bit of info for you, the NYSE is not in NY but trades out of Jersey where the servers are. Even some high frequency trades on the NYSE go through DErry as there are faster connections there than in the US.

    what was the British bank that was offline for a considerable period of time because of an IT screwup? their disaster recovery didnt do them much good. Disaster recovery on that scale is a massive piece of work. and disaster recovery on that scale can be great on paper but if you have never used it how do you know it works?


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    #891
    PHG
    Registered Users Posts: 475 ✭✭PHG


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    what was the British bank that was offline for a considerable period of time because of an IT screwup? their disaster recovery didnt do them much good. Disaster recovery on that scale is a massive piece of work. and disaster recovery on that scale can be great on paper but if you have never used it how do you know it works?

    That was a developer bug released into the software by RBS. Though a huge issue does not fall under the lines of disaster recovery.

    You can do testing and they got it fixed though it took a while.

    The bank was not offline, it affected accounts in a section of the bank. Everyone got their money back and compensation paid. Retail banking e.g. our bank accounts is a very small part of banking as a whole. Banks don't make the most of their money from day to day punters. People knowing the bank manager means nothing now.

    The other poster was referring to an end of the world situation which is highly unlikely.

    If your so convinced on cash have a look at how the dollar was backed by the Gold reserve.


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    #892
    makeorbrake
    Registered Users Posts: 4,664 ✭✭✭makeorbrake


    PHG wrote: »
    If your so convinced on cash have a look at how the dollar was backed by the Gold reserve.

    Since the dropping of the gold standard in 1971, the dollar - whether cash version or electronic - lacks any intrinsic value (the same for any sovereign currency).


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    #893
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    ReginaldSmythV wrote: »
    Privacy for what? To dodge paying tax?
    Removing it will be one of the best things to happen.

    People dont dodge the tax man by being paid in cash by and large, that is only for the little guys. The big guys with the real money dodge tax by using off shore accounts, 2nd passports and other incentives made for the rich by the rich.


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    #894
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    When I was in America in October last year I went to visit my cousin who lives there. She has an emergency pack in her car for emergencies such as earthquakes, fires, civil unrest even.

    I got curious and asked her what's in it and she said water purification tablets and other survival stuff. There's also a shotgun in it and a small pile of cash. I asked her about the cash end of things and she said that if sh1t goes down like a massive earthquake or something takes out the power network, or if there is civil unrest, what good will a credit card be. She had a point.

    Might want to supplement it with a few gold sovignerns or Krugerrands. You know what you should be on the look out for? Pre 1964 American quarters. 90% silver. All the new ones are copper with a silver coating


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    #895
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    dundalkfc10 wrote: »
    I don't have a bank account. Why would i give them money?

    Wages paid into Credit Union, if I need it I use Revoult

    You have no idea how the money markets and banks work do you?

    If the big banks go under in the next few months (very very likely) they will drag the solvent credit unions down with them. Revolut is just another bank with a swish new name.


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    #896
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    well it ll be interesting to see if bail ins truly take off in the coming financial sector wobble, we might know more then!

    Actually that is true, massive Financial burst will happen in the stock market next week after the presidential election. Donie can't keep printing money to keep Wall street afloat.


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    #897
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    Central banks can never run out of money, the constriction of banking operations during the last crisis was more politically motivated than anything, it's highly unlikely the whole financial system would be allowed collapse. it's possible all citizens would be given direct access to the ecb if a serious banking crisis occurred, if a major amount of banks were forced to close etc

    They tell you lies about inflation rising. What inflation is is that the Government have run out of money through mismanagement so, they are going to print more using the central bank and devalue the money in your pocket. All madness and then to add insult to injury they tell you the cost of living is rising.


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    #898
    El Tarangu
    Registered Users Posts: 1,616 ✭✭✭El Tarangu


    Strumms wrote: »
    I’ve worked in a scenario where during a powercut, we simply resorted to plan B... called a neighboring office for a quote for the customer, when they accepted the quote and paid the money their receipt was emailed to them on confirmation of payment.

    That doesn't really sound any more simple than one phone scanning a QR code on another phone, tbh.

    (Also, the scenario you outlined does not appear to actually involve anyone using cash, so not sure what it serves to illustrate about a society going cashless or not).


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    #899
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,320 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    PHG wrote: »
    That was a developer bug released into the software by RBS. Though a huge issue does not fall under the lines of disaster recovery.

    You can do testing and they got it fixed though it took a while.

    The bank was not offline, it affected accounts in a section of the bank. Everyone got their money back and compensation paid. Retail banking e.g. our bank accounts is a very small part of banking as a whole. Banks don't make the most of their money from day to day punters. People knowing the bank manager means nothing now.

    The other poster was referring to an end of the world situation which is highly unlikely.

    If your so convinced on cash have a look at how the dollar was backed by the Gold reserve.

    I never said that people lost their money. They did, however, lose access to their money for the duration. And i think it does fall under disaster recovery. they were unable to roll back a software update they had screwed up. they should have had something in place to mitigate the risks. My point is that you think these IT people have everything under control and know what they are doing. the example with RBS shows your confidence is misplaced.


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    #900
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    I never said that people lost their money. They did, however, lose access to their money for the duration. And i think it does fall under disaster recovery. they were unable to roll back a software update they had screwed up. they should have had something in place to mitigate the risks. My point is that you think these IT people have everything under control and know what they are doing. the example with RBS shows your confidence is misplaced.

    It is that arrogance that a system cannot fail, just like the tower of Babel. That is why people are stacking silver and gold. You have been warned several times by several sources (much more qualified than myself Kyosaki, Buffet, Dalio) to diversify. 101 for traders do not put all your eggs in one basket. Spread the risk.


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    #901
    coinop
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 315 ✭✭coinop


    LOL they really don't want you using cash. Man arrested for having large quantity of cash on him. No drugs. No guns. Arrested for having cash. Can't wait for all the aul biddys who hold up the checkout line counting out their pennies to be sent to the gulag.

    https://www.rte.ie/news/regional/2020/1107/1176627-cash-seized-dublin/


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