US Presidential Election 2020 Thread II - Judgement Day(s)

Mr.Nice Guy · 08-11-2020 07:38PM

I had a read of the letter George Bush left for Bill Clinton in '93 when he was about to take charge...

https://twitter.com/Razarumi/status/1325485021629714433

Then it dawned on me that Trump meanwhile will not only refuse to write such a gracious letter, but will likely spend every waking day tweeting invective towards Biden and undermining him at every opportunity.

OhHiMark · 08-11-2020 07:59PM

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

He could save 130,000 lives during the rest of his term by following medical advice and promoting masks.

https://www.dw.com/en/us-could-see-half-a-million-coronavirus-deaths-by-end-of-winter-study-warns/a-55379763

But he's still president and if he stepped down then Pence gets the job and I can't see any US politician refusing that.

Conspiracy theory would be that the first thing Pence would do is give Trump a presidential pardon. But that won't stop the civil or local stuff.

Can he be pardoned for something he hasn't been convicted of yet?

TomOnBoard · 08-11-2020 08:16PM

OhHiMark wrote: »

Can he be pardoned for something he hasn't been convicted of yet?

Federal stuff, yes!

For Forks Sake · 08-11-2020 08:37PM

TomOnBoard wrote: »

Federal stuff, yes!

Unfortuately for him, its a lot of individual States are going after him, and a pardon won't get him off the hook for those

prawnsambo · 08-11-2020 08:39PM

OhHiMark wrote: »

Can he be pardoned for something he hasn't been convicted of yet?

Yeah. As was pointed out earlier, Ford basically pardoned Nixon for any crimes he committed against America while in office. A genuine gold-plated get out of jail free card.

But two things have to happen. Trump to resign and let Pence take over and Pence to actually do it. Is there honour amongst thieves?

Brian? · 08-11-2020 08:41PM

OhHiMark wrote: »

Can he be pardoned for something he hasn't been convicted of yet?

He can. Nixon was too. It’s a joke. There’s even a line of thinking that he can pardon himself.

prawnsambo · 08-11-2020 09:34PM

Brian? wrote: »

He can. Nixon was too. It’s a joke. There’s even a line of thinking that he can pardon himself.

Would be fun if he did that only to find out later that it doesn't work that way.

abff · 08-11-2020 09:38PM

prawnsambo wrote: »

Would be fun if he did that only to find out later that it doesn't work that way.

Yes, but it wouldn’t just be an ordinary pardon. It would be a tremendous pardon, possibly the greatest pardon ever. On a par at least with any pardon granted by Lincoln.

Brian? · 08-11-2020 09:40PM

I’ve had a few whiskeys and I’m getting a little sentimental. So forgive me.

There’s a some wonderful things about America and some awful things about America. Joe Biden represents the wonderful things, mostly. Decent human being who worked his way up to being POTUS.

Kamala Harris too. The child of 2 immigrants who’s now Veep.

It’s wonderful to be reminded of that now. There’s hope for the US. No matter what anyone says it’s the most influential nation in the world. And it’s a positive influence again.

Night all.

08-11-2020 09:43PM

Brian? wrote: »

I’ve had a few whiskeys and I’m getting a little sentimental. So forgive me.

There’s a some wonderful things about America and some awful things about America. Joe Biden represents the wonderful things, mostly. Decent human being who worked his way up to being POTUS.

Kamala Harris too. The child of 2 immigrants who’s now Veep.

It’s wonderful to be reminded of that now. There’s hope for the US. No matter what anyone says it’s the most influential nation in the world. And it’s a positive influence again.

Night all.

The trouble is it's just as if not more divided than ever. If you had 5 people in your house trying to decide on what food to get and 2 of the votes were to kill and eat you it wouldn't be a great result.

Water John · 08-11-2020 09:51PM

Yang moving to Georgia to help the Senate run off campaign. Stacey Abrahms on with Jake Tapper CNN earlier. She's a powerhouse.

prawnsambo · 08-11-2020 10:01PM

There were some discrepancies found in Fulton County. Taken very seriously and investigated. Trump got all excited, but apparently was a scanning problem with about 340 votes and resulted in a bigger margin for Biden.

awec · 08-11-2020 10:04PM

The Ocasio-Cortez stuff is pure fantasy. The US is a long way away from electing someone like her to President.

Democrats should enjoy their victory, Trump is gone and that's something that the majority will celebrate all around the world. But they do need to reflect. Trump got over 70million votes, the election was close enough, and if anyone thinks that those 70+ million people are all immigrant hating, racist redneck types then they are absolutely deluded.

Evidently there is a very significant chunk of Americans who backed what Trump was trying to do. Some of these people are the stereotype that we've heard so much about, and they're a lost cause. But I will not believe that they represent the majority. Democrats absolutely must take time to understand why they don't appeal to these people, otherwise in 4 years time it's going to be the same story. Biden can talk about unity all he wants, but he isn't going to win these people over with words.

We would have to be idiots to not try and understand why anti-establishment politics has seen a real surge in numbers.

prawnsambo · 08-11-2020 10:12PM

awec wrote: »

The Ocasio-Cortez stuff is pure fantasy. The US is a long way away from electing someone like her to President.

Democrats should enjoy their victory, Trump is gone and that's something that the majority will celebrate all around the world. But they do need to reflect. Trump got over 70million votes, the election was close enough, and if anyone thinks that those 70+ million people are all immigrant hating, racist redneck types then they are absolutely deluded.

Evidently there is a very significant chunk of Americans who backed what Trump was trying to do. Some of these people are the stereotype that we've heard so much about, and they're a lost cause. But I will not believe that they represent the majority. Democrats absolutely must take time to understand why they don't appeal to these people, otherwise in 4 years time it's going to be the same story. Biden can talk about unity all he wants, but he isn't going to win these people over with words.

We would have to be idiots to not try and understand why anti-establishment politics has seen a real surge in numbers.

Quite a significant number of Latinos - specifically Cubans and Venezuelans were spooked by the 'leftist and socialist' labels that the Democrats were painted with. For the very good reason that it was such political systems that they and their families fled from in the first place. That's an issue with messaging and policy that the Democrats need to address.

breezy1985 · 08-11-2020 10:51PM

awec wrote: »

The Ocasio-Cortez stuff is pure fantasy. The US is a long way away from electing someone like her to President.

Democrats should enjoy their victory, Trump is gone and that's something that the majority will celebrate all around the world. But they do need to reflect. Trump got over 70million votes, the election was close enough, and if anyone thinks that those 70+ million people are all immigrant hating, racist redneck types then they are absolutely deluded.

Evidently there is a very significant chunk of Americans who backed what Trump was trying to do. Some of these people are the stereotype that we've heard so much about, and they're a lost cause. But I will not believe that they represent the majority. Democrats absolutely must take time to understand why they don't appeal to these people, otherwise in 4 years time it's going to be the same story. Biden can talk about unity all he wants, but he isn't going to win these people over with words.

We would have to be idiots to not try and understand why anti-establishment politics has seen a real surge in numbers.

5 million more in the popular vote and about 76 in the electoral college isnt actually as close as it originally looked like it was going to be.

What.Now · 08-11-2020 10:57PM

prawnsambo wrote: »

Yeah. As was pointed out earlier, Ford basically pardoned Nixon for any crimes he committed against America while in office. A genuine gold-plated get out of jail free card.

But two things have to happen. Trump to resign and let Pence take over and Pence to actually do it. Is there honour amongst thieves?

Was that ever challenged or was it a case of just let him go so we don't have to deal with it?

TomOnBoard · 08-11-2020 11:03PM

What.Now wrote: »

Was that ever challenged or was it a case of just let him go so we don't have to deal with it?

Never really challenged by the politicians. However, the People reacted when Ford went to the Polls. He lost a huge amount of support from the public that ultimately led to Jimmy Carter's Presidency.

prawnsambo · 08-11-2020 11:09PM

What.Now wrote: »

Was that ever challenged or was it a case of just let him go so we don't have to deal with it?

No. Although it almost certainly lost Ford the next election and lost a lot of Republican seats as well.

V8 Interceptor · 08-11-2020 11:09PM

StringerBell wrote: »

Your first paragraph, thanks. I don't see how that opinion would get you in trouble or burned at the stake anywhere even by people who disagree with you. The second paragraph though can get into murky water because even if someone accepts that perhaps Biden is in cognitive decline the obvious comparison to trump will not reflect well on trump. So lets not go there? So you think trump was good for the world outside of the US then more so than bad and you think that Biden will be worse for the rest of the world. Can you flesh that out a little bit more for me? What way has the world become a better place outside the US due to him other than the not starting a new war which you have mentioned already and how do you see Biden having a negative impact when he takes his position in January?

I'm afraid I can't thrash it out any further because that last reply got me a two day ban. We'll have to leave it there.

StringerBell wrote: »

He won't last long though, its kinda like the election. I'm curious to see how many posts he manages to get in before they all get deleted by the mighty ban hammer and disappear forever, likes trumps leads did. We were at 6 at the time of posting, I'll have the over/under at 11

In response to your question I was banned subsequently.

murpho999 · 08-11-2020 11:15PM

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

...but it's not really a close election - only in the contorted, anachronistic world of the electoral college.

At the same time as that 71k margin is being whittled down by votes coming in in Arizona the overall total margin is increasing by millions in California and New York. Millions of people are disenfranchised by the Electoral College. The USA is the only country where their main election by-passes all of their major cities.

Just because it's the convention doesn't make it any less democratic.

It's not really close in the electoral college votes either and will pretty much reflect the popular vote.

It was more how this election panned out and was slower than normal due to postal voting that made it seem close.

The electoral college votes are related to population so I don't see your point.

V8 Interceptor · 08-11-2020 11:17PM

breezy1985 wrote: »

5 million more in the popular vote and about 76 in the electoral college isnt actually as close as it originally looked like it was going to be.

When's the last time a Dem didn't get the popular vote?

NY & CA have huge populations.

Water John · 08-11-2020 11:20PM

V8 Interceptor wrote: »

When's the last time a Dem didn't get the popular vote?

NY & CA have huge populations.

Two countries US and UK where the popular vote quite often doesn't tally with who's governing. This creates an unsustainable tension.

V8 Interceptor · 08-11-2020 11:22PM

Indeed it sounds strange when you hear it first (I first really learned about it in Bush v Gore) but there is a logic behind the electoral college.

What.Now · 08-11-2020 11:24PM

prawnsambo wrote: »

No. Although it almost certainly lost Ford the next election and lost a lot of Republican seats as well.

Ok thanks, so at this point nobody is sure yet that a president can be pardoned by an incoming president until it is challenged if needed.

listermint · 08-11-2020 11:25PM

awec wrote: »

The Ocasio-Cortez stuff is pure fantasy. The US is a long way away from electing someone like her to President.

Democrats should enjoy their victory, Trump is gone and that's something that the majority will celebrate all around the world. But they do need to reflect. Trump got over 70million votes, the election was close enough, and if anyone thinks that those 70+ million people are all immigrant hating, racist redneck types then they are absolutely deluded.

Evidently there is a very significant chunk of Americans who backed what Trump was trying to do. Some of these people are the stereotype that we've heard so much about, and they're a lost cause. But I will not believe that they represent the majority. Democrats absolutely must take time to understand why they don't appeal to these people, otherwise in 4 years time it's going to be the same story. Biden can talk about unity all he wants, but he isn't going to win these people over with words.

We would have to be idiots to not try and understand why anti-establishment politics has seen a real surge in numbers.

Facebook Facebook Facebook coupled with daily lies about the opposition. It's extremely difficult to over ride such a narrative when it's constant and daily and in your hands every waking moment of the day.

Slogan lies are easier than a paragraph factual explanation. For the democrats to win anything they have to get real airtime in peoples eyes and ears to get a message across. Over ride the fear campaigns with a positive campaign. That's not easy because fear is seductive

moon2 · 08-11-2020 11:26PM

V8 Interceptor wrote: »

Indeed it sounds strange when you hear it first (I first really learned about it in Bush v Gore) but there is a logic behind the electoral college.

Absolutely. The same kind of logic governs ireland's outsized influence and representation within the EU.

As with all things, population growth and time have strained things. The US allocation could do with a review.

awec · 08-11-2020 11:30PM

listermint wrote: »

Facebook Facebook Facebook coupled with daily lies about the opposition. It's extremely difficult to over ride such a narrative when it's constant and daily and in your hands every waking moment of the day.

Slogan lies are easier than a paragraph factual explanation. For the democrats to win anything they have to get real airtime in peoples eyes and ears to get a message across. Over ride the fear campaigns with a positive campaign. That's not easy because fear is seductive

I really think that putting it all down to lies / propaganda is just failing to deal with reality.

The lies and bending the truth was successful because a huge amount of Americans were disenfranchised with the system to begin with.

The problems are real, and they need to be fixed. Biden isn't going to fix them in 4 years, but he needs to make a start. He can talk about unity all he wants but if democrats want to keep the white house in 2024 they need to deliver for ordinary working people in the next 4 years.

V8 Interceptor · 08-11-2020 11:33PM

awec wrote: »

I really think that putting it all down to lies / propaganda is just failing to deal with reality.

Agreed. The mainstream media aren't shy about lying or propagandizing themselves.

awec · 08-11-2020 11:38PM

V8 Interceptor wrote: »

Agreed. The mainstream media aren't shy about lying or propagandizing themselves.

I don't agree with this either though. This "mainstream media" is just deflectionary bull****.

Trumpism was successful because the people who voted for Trump were able to resonate with the message he was giving. If you want to defeat Trumpism, you need to kill the message at source. You need to restore faith in the system.

As far as I am concerned, Joe Biden should never mention Donald Trump again. Democrats should figure out why Trump picked up so many swing voters, and figure out what they can do to help those people while remaining true to their own values and principles. As I said, there is no way there is 70+ million right wing fanatics in the US.

V8 Interceptor · 08-11-2020 11:46PM

Well whatever way you look at it, social media (incl camera phones) has leveled things out a lot. The MSM no longer have control of the narrative like they did in the past. That's been the case for a few years now. I don't know what the Biden administration will do to reach out to the 70m Trump voters but I think Biden would be better at it than Harris and some of the more left leaning side of the party.

US Presidential Election 2020 Thread II - Judgement Day(s)

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