France vs Ireland...England $hat the bed..it's on!

sydthebeat · 03-11-2020 8:41pm

France

U20s World rugby champions 2018 and 2019..................

03-11-2020 8:51pm

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

There is no backwards trend, we are in a season of transition after a World Cup. I still can’t believe how people with any knowledge of rugby can’t see that, we have a new way of playing and guess what, it’s going to take time to get it right.

Ha ha for a completely new coaching set-up "in a season of transition" after a world cup France did quite well no?

not much "transition" required in their case, but extensively required in the case of Ireland according to some.

but for the red card in Scotland they would have had the slam after a quick "transition"

Yeah_Right · 03-11-2020 8:52pm

glasso wrote: »

right. thanks for correcting my errors. I don't think that the points are negated though.

Don't you see though that to take another example of Murray who can continue to be picked for such a long period of dire form in 2019 (both for Ireland and Munster) that this denies the chance to actually develop other players - the longer this sort of culture is promoted that it both affects development and actually engenders a sub-optimal culture that reduces the drive of players to be the best that they can be. It's not about throwing the incumbents away - not at all but giving the others the chance when it's obvious that it's deserved.

Murray's subconscious working away - "Well if I can get away with being this shyte then ok then"

is it any surprise that Murray and Sexton are still the best options now as a result of this sort of culture? (obviously taking into account the Carberry and Jackson situation). you end up with no true depth, experience and form players as a result. particularly exacerbated in the case of key roles like 9 and 10 where the tendency is to be most reverent to past glories and importance to the system. but obviously affects the whole squad.

And where would this problem get exposed the most -where you have to play a run of tough games in sharp succession without a break where you're just going to have injuries and where you have to pick the form players - like at a world cup for example. like at 9 world cups.

I'm sure that the central contracts situation is part of this but then the administrators have to be better about that side of the game.

This is undoubtedly a long-standing problem in Ireland. not only at international level.

if you want a real culture of excellence then it needs to be more than lip service.

Anyone that's been reading the rugby forum over the last couple of years would know I've been one of the biggest critics of Murray. Hell, I'm a Munster fan and I wanted him dropped down to the AIL. You'll get no argument from me against replacing Murray. If he's going to be in the Irish squad, he should be getting subbed of at halftime or with 30 to go. Or on the bench coming on for the last quarter. At the most.

03-11-2020 9:02pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

France

U20s World rugby champions 2018 and 2019..................

you'd really have to commend the new coaching set-up for effectively transitioning some of this young talent pool into the senior international team so quickly and so well though.

and their U20 success shows how well they are developing the talent for their age group level

developing and bringing the young talent through - that's what it's all about.

Hands Like Flippers · 04-11-2020 1:03am

Enquiring wrote: »

Why was Sexton right to be upset? He should have been left on the whole match?

I think we might just have to face the fact that we don't have any top level 9's or 10's. Sexton has been very poor for a good while now, same as Murray. If you don't have the personal, it's difficult but you have to find the gameplan that works.

Cooney.

Hands Like Flippers · 04-11-2020 1:15am

thomas 123 wrote: »

I think the lack of talent along with selection based on contract / status has come home to roost, I don’t think it’s looking good long term for the next World Cup.

Looking at scrum half as example - Why are we bringing in the likes of Gibson-park when Mgrath, Cooney, Marmion all have played well for their provinces?

Then AF brings Casey in from Munster to train with the squad?

I honestly don’t get it at all.

This.

Must be really disheartening for those who missed out. Players like Cooney must have watched inter alia Dupont outpacing Murray for one of the tries with complete disbelief as to why he has never got a proper run despite his performances for Ulster. JG left pass wasn't great either.

pickarooney · 04-11-2020 10:34am

glasso wrote: »

Yes they do have more depth but undoubtedly too much of a history of too much reverence paid to past good performances in Ireland when the current ability level and form does not match up

Feeds through the system as a result into development.

Long standing issue

It's effectively part of the culture.

Not a chance Stockdale would have been in that team
with the new Zealand culture on Saturday to reiterate the recent example. And there were solutions to not have him there

You're right, but...

Not a chance Stockdale would have been in that team, X would have been instead.

In the absence of a Will Jordan, Caleb Clarke, Rieko Ioane, Seevu Reece or George Bridge, which shiny new things in Ireland would you have?

Baloucoune if he was fit, maybe, Lowe when he's qualified perhaps... The fact Keenan was in there after only a short apprenticeship in the Pro14 indicates that if the players are there, they will get a chance - with the caveat that injuries to Larmour and (I think) Earls, opened the door. When they're all fit, will Keenan be dropped if a) he continues to play well or b) he makes a few mistakes ?

04-11-2020 11:00am

pickarooney wrote: »

You're right, but...

Not a chance Stockdale would have been in that team, X would have been instead.

In the absence of a Will Jordan, Caleb Clarke, Rieko Ioane, Seevu Reece or George Bridge, which shiny new things in Ireland would you have?

Baloucoune if he was fit, maybe, Lowe when he's qualified perhaps... The fact Keenan was in there after only a short apprenticeship in the Pro14 indicates that if the players are there, they will get a chance - with the caveat that injuries to Larmour and (I think) Earls, opened the door. When they're all fit, will Keenan be ydropped if a) he continues to play well or b) he makes a few mistakes ?

the examples of Stockdale and Murray used are more to illustrate the so-called culture of excellence that Ireland aspire to but it's only lip-service.

the actual culture is denying develop opportunities to others when deserved, too much reverence paid to out-of-form players.

this has gone on for too long and only goes to create problems where you end up with unproven and inexperienced 2nd-options because they never got the chance and also basically out-of-form players playing in key matches.

pickarooney · 04-11-2020 11:09am

Stockdale's only been in the Irish side a couple of years and he was undroppable in 2018. He's not been great this last while but unless we play with 14 men we need a viable replacement for him and if you want him out you absolutely have to pick someone to take his place. He's been moved to a new position which is itself experimental. If it doesn't work out, so be it, but you can't say the coaches are trying something. If Larmour were fit, would Stockdale be starting at FB, on the wing, on the bench? Who knows. If Dave Kearney was on the wing you might have more of a point, or if Sweetnam, Cian Kelleher or someone actually looked like international prospects.

Maybe Shane Daly should have got a chance against Italy but if/when he was dropped again we'd have the argument that experience against Italy doesn't count or if he went badly we'd bemoan the missed chance to try Stockdale at FB or he'd have scored two tries and people would want him to play bigger games.

Conway has been there a couple of years and not been exceptional but again if he's to be replaced there needs to be a claimant.

04-11-2020 11:29am

As I said I'm more about the longer-term trend where contracted players are not dropped when they should be ending up with no experienced 2nd options in key areas (e.g. 9 and 10 particularly)

Countries with a real culture of selection excellence just don't do that.

They took a chance with Keenan fair enough and he was composed.

Lowe will be given a go obviously.

Then there is the point about putting a player recognised at low on confidence (Stockdale) at 15. He duly complied and made key mistakes that cost big points. The try at the end was meaningless as the game was long over.

Conway probably a better decision and if you had to play Stockdale put him on the wing which is a less exposed position.

pickarooney · 04-11-2020 11:43am

I think the issue of #10 has been done to death at this stage. The two succession plans in Jackson and Carbery failed through no fault of planning. Carty and Ross Byrne have been given some exposure but have been largely uninspiring. I don't know if Billy Burns has been considered but I'd probably put him in the same category. Either way, the IRFU's hand will be forced before long and maybe Harry Byrne or Ben Healy or Ciaran Frawley or some as yet unheralded youngster will get a chance.

At SH, I genuinely don't know what the thinking is. I don't understand why Marmion is good enough to play 21 but not 9, why Cooney's not getting more game time, if Blade is actually the best half-back we haven't looked at, if Luke McGrath is actually any good at all, if Craig Case is the messiah... maybe it's not hugely dissimilar to NZ but with players an order of magnitude less talented.

aloooof · 04-11-2020 11:54am

glasso wrote: »

As I said I'm more about the longer-term trend where contracted players are not dropped when they should be ending up with no experienced 2nd options in key areas (e.g. 9 and 10 particularly)

Countries with a real culture of selection excellence just don't do that.

I'll be repeating myself at this point, but you're giving France as an example of "selection excellence" but overlooking that's coming off the back of a decade of performance and results failure.

It's way easier, and more justified, to have an overhaul in that context.

04-11-2020 12:00pm

aloooof wrote: »

I'll be repeating myself at this point, but you're giving France as an example of "selection excellence" but overlooking that's coming off the back of a decade of performance and results failure.

It's way easier, and more justified, to have an overhaul in that context.

never said that, at all.

I said that they have developed and brought youth through effectively and quickly. Which Ireland doesn't do as well, particularly at key 9 and 10 positions.

I didn't say anything about their "selection excellence"

making stuff up.

I did say that nations like NZ with cultures of selection excellence would never select out-of-form players over long periods like Ireland has done.

which is true.

aloooof · 04-11-2020 12:11pm

glasso wrote: »

never said that, at all.

I said that they have developed and brought youth through effectively and quickly. Which Ireland doesn't do as well, particularly at key 9 and 10 positions.

I didn't say anything about their "selection excellence"

making stuff up.

I did say that nations like NZ with cultures of selection excellence would never select out-of-form players over long periods like Ireland has done.

which is true.

No intention to make stuff up.

I took your specific mention towards the situation at 9 and 10 as a nod back towards your repeated praise for the French selection, that's all.

If meant in the context of NZ, I'll make the simple point in differences in strength in depth.

With 10, no amount of planning could've help there, as already pointed out.

I take your point at 9 tho. I'd have liked to see Marmion given more gametime.

04-11-2020 12:16pm

aloooof wrote: »

No intention to make stuff up.

I took your specific mention towards the situation at 9 and 10 as a nod back towards your repeated praise for the French selection, that's all.

If meant in the context of NZ, I'll make the simple point in differences in strength in depth.

With 10, no amount of planning could've help there, as already pointed out.

I take your point at 9 tho. I'd have liked to see Marmion given more gametime.

yes we know the story at 10 re Carberry and Jackson. Even then though, probably not going to be the solution but the way that Byrne and Carty have been handed their "opportunities" has been badly done.

anyway, just crap so see such a sh1tshow in those positions now with no solution apparent - not going to be sorted out anytime soon.

ionadnapokot · 04-11-2020 6:39pm

thomas 123 wrote: »

I think the lack of talent along with selection based on contract / status has come home to roost, I don’t think it’s looking good long term for the next World Cup.

Looking at scrum half as example - Why are we bringing in the likes of Gibson-park when Mgrath, Cooney, Marmion all have played well for their provinces?

Then AF brings Casey in from Munster to train with the squad?

I honestly don’t get it at all.

Hands Like Flippers wrote: »

This.

Must be really disheartening for those who missed out. Players like Cooney must have watched inter alia Dupont outpacing Murray for one of the tries with complete disbelief as to why he has never got a proper run despite his performances for Ulster. JG left pass wasn't great either.

I honestly couldnt see any scrum half in Ireland be able to live with the pace of Dupont. I think Dupont also had a a few metres head start on Murray for that Ntamack try.
Stockdale should have "worked harder across" (to quote Kearney) for that try.

I would have dropped Murray for Marmion for the Italy & France games.
But i would have dropped Murray for Cooney for the Scotland game at the start of the 6N.
But not on the basis of defense which is still vgood.

9.Marmion 21. Casey v Wales and Georgia

aloooof · 05-11-2020 1:33pm

Classic Eddie O'Sullivan-ism about the performance:

Eddie O'Sullivan:
I just think guys aren't on the same page... because, either, there isn't a page or it's not very clearly laid out what's on the page.

ionadnapokot · 05-11-2020 1:38pm

He's on the money with his analysis of where Ireland are at though
https://youtu.be/-ughpR5LraU?t=624

Paul Smeenus · 05-11-2020 2:06pm

ionadnapokot wrote: »

He's on the money with his analysis of where Ireland are at though
https://youtu.be/-ughpR5LraU?t=624

Agreed. As much as he's a figure of fun, he's always had a very sharp analytical mind.

Paul Smeenus · 05-11-2020 2:17pm

Watching the rest of that podcast - it's very good.

Dubinusa · 05-11-2020 2:50pm

We left 9 kickable points on the field during the 1st half. Going to the corner with a pack that isn't dominant and with the l/o struggling is not smart. They should have kept the scoreboard ticking over, imo.
Dupont and Ntamack are vastly younger and more skillful than Murray and Sexton. Farrell for whatever reason (central contracts), refuses to bench either of Murray or Sexton. I think that's one of our problems right now. Murray is on a long expensive contract and he's nowhere near good enough.
We could have beaten ðŸ‡«ðŸ‡·. If we took the points available and put the pressure on them by taking the 3 points. We go to the corner almost always and fail to secure a good platform. France have a pack that is hard to put the squeeze on. They are bigger and stronger!
Our leadership was poor. For all of the experience on the field, they showed little cop on.
With that said, it's good to see a more expansive effort and some new blood. I think Farrell should be given a full cycle to get the right combination.

ionadnapokot · 05-11-2020 2:57pm

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Agreed. As much as he's a figure of fun, he's always had a very sharp analytical mind.

I liked this one "he should have hit him so hard he could taste his fillings"

Paul Smeenus · 05-11-2020 3:23pm

ionadnapokot wrote: »

I liked this one "he should have hit him so hard he could taste his fillings"

That made me chuckle.

But what I was really interested (and fairly concerned) in hearing was everyone's analysis of Farrell.

ionadnapokot · 05-11-2020 5:18pm

& "Mad dogs in a meat house"

It is concerning & it’s a fair analysis.
They are able to talk it out and give good examples of the issues in selection, defence, attack, captain, mindset…Erasmus!
Murray Kinsella is also another to cast a fair eye over things and he is highlighting the same things.

Nobody wants to be too hard on Farrell and his coaching team this early. He is on a steep learning curve.
But to dismiss the issues because of that or players are missing is actually missing the bigger picture.

In Farrell's "defense" his main playmakers did not perform well enough in the championship and we are seeing the consequences just like in 2019.

Paul Smeenus · 05-11-2020 5:44pm

The thing that really concerned me was the scepticism that Farrell would help players like Stockdale improve.

05-11-2020 5:57pm

Sexton's current contract runs until June 2021

With his desire to continue on playing rugby for some time yet, he's for sure feeling the pressure about that now

Wouldn't that be on the table to renew etc about now? -> His last contract before this current one was until November 2019 and was renewed in December 2018

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/the-players-left-on-irish-rugbys-central-contract-hit-list-after-deal-struck-for-james-ryan/

ionadnapokot · 05-11-2020 6:46pm

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

The thing that really concerned me was the scepticism that Farrell would help players like Stockdale improve.

I didnt want to single him out again! But it's obvious now...it's not working for the player and you have to question what are the coaches doing in defense?
It's the defensive system and disjointed nature of it that is exposing our back three. & unfortunately Ireland's weakest defender.

mr_edge_to_you · 05-11-2020 7:47pm

ionadnapokot wrote: »

I liked this one "he should have hit him so hard he could taste his fillings"

My two favourites:

"As useful as a trapdoor on a canoe"

On woeful French defending a few years back: "he had two options and he chose the third!"

Paul Smeenus · 05-11-2020 7:54pm

In terms of that back three for the France game - Keenan had 1 cap, Conway had 23. Stockdale had 29, but 28 of those were at wing. That's a pretty inexperienced back three. They need real help with getting to grips with the defensive system.

thomas 123 · 05-11-2020 8:35pm

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

In terms of that back three for the France game - Keenan had 1 cap, Conway had 23. Stockdale had 29, but 28 of those were at wing. That's a pretty inexperienced back three. They need real help with getting to grips with the defensive system.

Should Keenan have been on the pitch? - I’m not familiar with his club game but is that really the best we have on the wing in Ireland currently?

France vs Ireland...England $hat the bed..it's on!

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