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France vs Ireland...England $hat the bed..it's on!

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    #992
    thomas 123
    Registered Users Posts: 2,503 ✭✭✭thomas 123


    Is this article correct - 17 appearances for Leinster and 1 try since 2016?

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugo_Keenan


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    #993
    aloooof
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,218 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    thomas 123 wrote: »
    Should Keenan have been on the pitch? - I’m not familiar with his club game but is that really the best we have on the wing in Ireland currently?

    He was the best of the back 3 in both the recent games. (But for a disallowed try, would've been the first player since the 50's to score a hattrick on his debut, I believe).

    I think there's a case to move him to 15 for these games tho.


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    #994
    thomas 123
    Registered Users Posts: 2,503 ✭✭✭thomas 123


    aloooof wrote: »
    He was the best of the back 3 in both the recent games. (But for a disallowed try, would've been the first player since the 50's to score a hattrick on his debut, I believe).

    I think there's a case to move him to 15 for these games tho.

    Viewing his stats alone he should be nowhere near a green jersey in my opinion.

    What’s the argument for him over many of our other wingers in the country? Maybe we are that stuck talent wise. Then again there is Zebo...

    I suppose he’s just a placeholder for Lowe.


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    #995
    Paul Smeenus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,316 ✭✭✭Paul Smeenus


    Baloucoune is better, but injured. I wouldn't have thought Keenan any better than Lyttle. However, he has shown up very well - can't begrudge him at all.


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    #996
    thomas 123
    Registered Users Posts: 2,503 ✭✭✭thomas 123


    Paul Smeenus wrote: »
    Baloucoune is better, but injured. I wouldn't have thought Keenan any better than Lyttle. However, he has shown up very well - can't begrudge him at all.

    Ah I dont want to begrudge him at all it’s just mad to think a lad with 17 appearances and 1 try for Leinster since 2016 can get on the Ireland team to play France in the 6 nations.

    To add, both players you mentioned have many more points and twice the caps as Keenan and are 3 years younger.

    Another example, Alex Wotton(around the same age) has more points and caps.

    Injury aside why was Keenan included in that squad - even the extended squad not just the match day squad.


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    #997
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    thomas 123 wrote: »
    Ah I dont want to begrudge him at all it’s just mad to think a lad with 17 appearances and 1 try for Leinster since 2016 can get on the Ireland team to play France in the 6 nations.

    To add, both players you mentioned have many more points and twice the caps as Keenan and are 3 years younger.

    Another example, Alex Wotton(around the same age) has more points and caps.

    Injury aside why was Keenan included in that squad - even the extended squad not just the match day squad.

    He's stepped up at every level presented to him


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    #998
    aloooof
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,218 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    thomas 123 wrote: »
    Ah I dont want to begrudge him at all it’s just mad to think a lad with 17 appearances and 1 try for Leinster since 2016 can get on the Ireland team to play France in the 6 nations.

    To add, both players you mentioned have many more points and twice the caps as Keenan and are 3 years younger.

    Another example, Alex Wotton(around the same age) has more points and caps.

    Injury aside why was Keenan included in that squad - even the extended squad not just the match day squad.

    I love a stat, but put simply they rarely tell the whole story. Would you have Wootton ahead of him, for example? I don't think there's many would.

    Do you think he played poorly in the last 2 games?


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    #999
    thomas 123
    Registered Users Posts: 2,503 ✭✭✭thomas 123


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    He's stepped up at every level presented to him

    In your opinion is he/was be our best option vs France? If so why? I’d honestly like to know, I lost interest in rugby for about a year and am just looking at this guys stats to form my opinion.

    Also you or anyone could have stepped up had you been handed the Ireland shirt.


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    #1000
    aloooof
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,218 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    thomas 123 wrote: »
    In your opinion is he/was be our best option vs France? If so why? I’d honestly like to know, I lost interest in rugby for about a year and am just looking at this guys stats to form my opinion.

    What stats? Just try scoring? He's played the vast majority of his games at FB, for what it's worth.
    thomas 123 wrote: »
    Also you or anyone could have stepped up had you been handed the Ireland shirt.

    Ah here...


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    #1001
    thomas 123
    Registered Users Posts: 2,503 ✭✭✭thomas 123


    aloooof wrote: »
    I love a stat, but put simply they rarely tell the whole story. Would you have Wootton ahead of him, for example? I don't think there's many would.

    Do you think he played poorly in the last 2 games?

    He didn’t offer much against France.

    No I would not, I compared him to Wotton for that very reason, but is this really the best we have right now?

    Why is Zebo still being left out of team if we have to start Leinster squad players in massive international games?


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    #1002
    thomas 123
    Registered Users Posts: 2,503 ✭✭✭thomas 123


    aloooof wrote: »
    What stats? Just try scoring? He's played the vast majority of his games at FB, for what it's worth.

    No for sure, it’s just stark.

    I hope for our sake he gets better and better, it’s nothing personal, I am just wondering why he was selected vs all of the other wingers in Ireland. Same goes for Connors.


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    #1003
    CMcsporty
    Registered Users Posts: 1,567 ✭✭✭CMcsporty


    Paul Smeenus wrote: »
    In terms of that back three for the France game - Keenan had 1 cap, Conway had 23. Stockdale had 29, but 28 of those were at wing. That's a pretty inexperienced back three. They need real help with getting to grips with the defensive system.

    It was the team wide errors (system errors) in defence, exasperated by Stockdale mistakes that was the shocking part.
    What coaching was going on that they thought this was the correct selection?
    ....Like you can’t put the toothpaste back in the tube....


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    #1004
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    thomas 123 wrote: »
    In your opinion is he/was be our best option vs France? If so why? I’d honestly like to know, I lost interest in rugby for about a year and am just looking at this guys stats to form my opinion.

    Also you or anyone could have stepped up had you been handed the Ireland shirt.

    I can't really comment on his performance from the French match. I didn't watch intently and haven't watched it back since. I can't think of anything he did wrong against Italy.

    He is without a doubt a bit of a bolter. He wouldn't be there without injury. He stepped to many other levels before Ireland. He has been consistently good for leinster. He was the stand out performer against Saracens in that quarter final loss. He took the fullback position from Larmour after that game. He kinda reminds me of Dave Kearney but better. Does the basics very well. He always seems to eek out an extra few yards with footwork before the tackle. Sometimes evading the first few tacklers altogether. His fielding seems to be top notch. Seems to be in the right place at the right time fairly often when it comes to support runs.
    thomas 123 wrote: »
    He didn’t offer much against France.

    No I would not, I compared him to Wotton for that very reason, but is this really the best we have right now?

    Why is Zebo still being left out of team if we have to start Leinster squad players in massive international games?

    Wooten isn't even starting for Munster as far as I know. It's debatable that he's the best we have right now. He's unproven but as I said, he steps up to every challenge so far. He's not really a squad player anymore considering he's starting big games for Leinster.

    You should know why Zebo is being left out at this stage. Not playing in Ireland means no call up. We need to protect the provinces.


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    #1005
    Paul Smeenus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,316 ✭✭✭Paul Smeenus


    CMcsporty wrote: »
    It was the team wide errors (system errors) in defence, exasperated by Stockdale mistakes that was the shocking part.
    What coaching was going on that they thought this was the correct selection?
    ....Like you can’t put the toothpaste back in the tube....

    Jackman seems to be doing the rounds, making the point on a number of podcasts that focussing on Stockdale's knock-ons or feeble tackles is actually distracting folk from focussing on the real problem - our organisation.

    He makes the point that for Ntamack's try, when Sexton kicks his up and under, 14 of 15 Ireland players are on one side of the pitch. There is literally a whole side of the pitch with one Irish player in it. If that happened at club level, Jackman points out, players would absolutely be read the riot act.

    I didn't think it was good at the time - I rewatched it and it's positively painful.


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    #1006
    aloooof
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,218 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Wooten isn't even starting for Munster as far as I know.

    I'd agree with much of what you said partyjungle, but one small point - Wootton's moved to Connacht, and seems to be playing well from the bits of him I've seen, but I still don't think he is anywhere near a call up.

    Thomas really just seems to be basing this on Keenan's try stats solely, as far as I can see. Here's another stat. Keenan already has half as many tries as Luke Fitzgerald scored for Ireland.


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    #1007
    Paul Smeenus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,316 ✭✭✭Paul Smeenus


    Paul Smeenus wrote: »
    Jackman seems to be doing the rounds, making the point on a number of podcasts that focussing on Stockdale's knock-ons or feeble tackles is actually distracting folk from focussing on the real problem - our organisation.

    He makes the point that for Ntamack's try, when Sexton kicks his up and under, 14 of 15 Ireland players are on one side of the pitch. There is literally a whole side of the pitch with one Irish player in it. If that happened at club level, Jackman points out, players would absolutely be read the riot act.

    I didn't think it was good at the time - I rewatched it and it's positively painful.

    https://www.the42.ie/the42-rugby-weekly-15-5256804-Nov2020/

    Just saw this.


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    #1008
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    thomas 123 wrote: »
    No for sure, it’s just stark.

    I hope for our sake he gets better and better, it’s nothing personal, I am just wondering why he was selected vs all of the other wingers in Ireland. Same goes for Connors.

    This post explained a lot to me https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=115018131&postcount=8123


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    #1009
    thomas 123
    Registered Users Posts: 2,503 ✭✭✭thomas 123


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    This post explained a lot to me https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=115018131&postcount=8123

    Here’s hoping the trajectory continues.


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    #1010
    thomas 123
    Registered Users Posts: 2,503 ✭✭✭thomas 123


    aloooof wrote: »
    I'd agree with much of what you said partyjungle, but one small point - Wootton's moved to Connacht, and seems to be playing well from the bits of him I've seen, but I still don't think he is anywhere near a call up.

    Thomas really just seems to be basing this on Keenan's try stats solely, as far as I can see. Here's another stat. Keenan already has half as many tries as Luke Fitzgerald scored for Ireland.

    Tries and appearances for Leinster is what I am going off just to clarify.


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    #1011
    Dubinusa
    Registered Users Posts: 8,129 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    thomas 123 wrote: »
    He didn’t offer much against France.

    No I would not, I compared him to Wotton for that very reason, but is this really the best we have right now?

    Why is Zebo still being left out of team if we have to start Leinster squad players in massive international games?

    Wooden was released by Munster! So he isn't a good comparison.


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    #1012
    aloooof
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,218 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Dubinusa wrote: »
    Wooden was released by Munster! So he isn't a good comparison.

    He's with Connacht on loan for the season, and seems to be playing well (from the limited amount I've seen), but even so, I don't see him getting near an international call up.


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