What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

31-10-2020 10:48pm

zimmermania wrote: »

w
Do you reckon Dev was right after all? Dancing at the xroads,women stay home,produce more children and none of this birth control and control of their bodies,wishful thinking man,we aint going back to the dungeon days.

And there's the feminist influence on modern thinking.

The use of absolutes, as if to suggest that such a lifestyle couldn't be different from what went before... and combined with the other belief that women were completely without choice or influence in the past. It rarely holds up to honest/unbiased examination though.

Two sides of a coin to push women away from traditional roles, and instead to embrace a career lifestyle that, increasingly more women state is lacking in value (beyond the monetary returns, and even there, many are opting out)

Modern society would allow women to have the freedoms/rights they currently have, while also having larger families. Benefits for men to stay at home would remove many of the issues, but either women don't want to give up their 'more suitable' status, or there's little pressure to implement the schemes suggested so far. Rather than insulting fathers in society, perhaps it's time to start supporting them, since they could take up whatever pressures that are so difficult for women (apart from the obvious biological aspects)

seenitall · 01-11-2020 12:17am

Deleted User wrote: »

And there's the feminist influence on modern thinking.

The use of absolutes, as if to suggest that such a lifestyle couldn't be different from what went before... and combined with the other belief that women were completely without choice or influence in the past. It rarely holds up to honest/unbiased examination though.

Two sides of a coin to push women away from traditional roles, and instead to embrace a career lifestyle that, increasingly more women state is lacking in value (beyond the monetary returns, and even there, many are opting out)

Modern society would allow women to have the freedoms/rights they currently have, while also having larger families. Benefits for men to stay at home would remove many of the issues, but either women don't want to give up their 'more suitable' status, or there's little pressure to implement the schemes suggested so far. Rather than insulting fathers in society, perhaps it's time to start supporting them, since they could take up whatever pressures that are so difficult for women ( apart from the obvious biological aspects)

I think there is a lot of cultural stuff at play with these issues. Ireland is still conservative in many aspects, socially speaking. Back in the old country, a friend has a high flying career and the hubbie is a stay at home dad (4 kids). I think this state of affairs is much more rare over here than the continent. If there are a good few kids in the house, almost invariably it is the mother that stays at home. Now I’ve no stats for any of this, it’s purely observation, as I grew up over there and have been a mum at the school gates over here. Like observing the disparity of women in politics in Europe vs. here. It’s not huge, but it’s there.

zimmermania · 01-11-2020 1:27am

Deleted User wrote: »

And there's the feminist influence on modern thinking.

The use of absolutes, as if to suggest that such a lifestyle couldn't be different from what went before... and combined with the other belief that women were completely without choice or influence in the past. It rarely holds up to honest/unbiased examination though.

Two sides of a coin to push women away from traditional roles, and instead to embrace a career lifestyle that, increasingly more women state is lacking in value (beyond the monetary returns, and even there, many are opting out)

Modern society would allow women to have the freedoms/rights they currently have, while also having larger families. Benefits for men to stay at home would remove many of the issues, but either women don't want to give up their 'more suitable' status, or there's little pressure to implement the schemes suggested so far. Rather than insulting fathers in society, perhaps it's time to start supporting them, since they could take up whatever pressures that are so difficult for women (apart from the obvious biological aspects)

A feminest?,i will take it as a compliment,in the 1970s while campaigning for a socialist candidate in the general election a group of us were canvassing in a reasonably large rural village.

When we were finished knocking on doors we went to the local pub for a drink and to use the toilet.

When we entered the bar one of the guys in our group said to me "what would think if the bar was full of women rather than men" at 1 oc on a sunday afternoon.

I looked around me and saw about 20 men drinking and the only women were the two that came in with us.

It took me a while to understand the point he was making,a bunch of men of all ages getting half pissed before going home to the sunday roast (no going out to sunday lunch in those days) and thinking this was normal as it happened in all the pubs of ireland.

I was glad of the man's perception in those dark days,

01-11-2020 1:37am

seenitall wrote: »

I think there is a lot of cultural stuff at play with these issues. Ireland is still conservative in many aspects, socially speaking. Back in the old country, a friend has a high flying career and the hubbie is a stay at home dad (4 kids). I think this state of affairs is much more rare over here than the continent. If there are a good few kids in the house, almost invariably it is the mother that stays at home. Now I’ve no stats for any of this, it’s purely observation, as I grew up over there and have been a mum at the school gates over here. Like observing the disparity of women in politics in Europe vs. here. It’s not huge, but it’s there.

Old country? Ahh.. nah. I've no idea what you're referring to. It's not like we're American, talking about Europe.

Typically, it makes little financial sense for the father to stay at home while the mother works. There's far more supports available for mothers than there are for fathers, both legally and in society. Women get away with more absences from work, than a man would.. including a far greater chance at flexi-time, or some other work scheme for mothers. It's just the way things are. The advantages are firmly directed towards women, so... why give them up, just so that the father stays at home instead of the mother. Now... if there was equality for fathers and mothers, then I expect you'd see more fathers staying at home, simply because women can make more money in many jobs than men depending on the industry.

As for the difference in politics. There isn't the interest. If Irish women wanted to be career politicians, they would be. Except they're not. There are no barriers to them running for office, building a network of supporters, etc but they're simply not interested in that kind of work. I've noticed the people most interested in women being in politics, have no interest in doing so themselves, and expect others to do the work...

Oh, sure, some women are, and they do participate, and some will reach higher positions... but it's worth considering how many men participate at various levels of politics, and never get anywhere. Since the focus is on genders, rather than individuals, it's easy to miss that large percentage of males who enter politics never succeed. Nobody cares, because they're looking at genders.

andy2323 · 01-11-2020 1:40am

biko wrote: »

Isn't that what the left wanted?

We can do what Hungary do and reward young couples that have children. That way we don't have to replace Irish people with immigrants but simply reproduce ourselves.

It's not about the left.vs right. In most countries it's been the trend for a while. E.g.: Japan has an extremely homogeneous society, with strong male-female role and generous benefit schemes for babies. They have been trying for 10+ years and still fail to increase birth rate. China also have a hard time convincing its citizens to have more children. And it's still quite expected for women to quit their career to take care of the family in these societies. Throwing money at the problem doesn't make it go away.

Eric Cartman wrote: »

multi-nationals : jobs and investment
multi-culture : rape gangs, economic drain and violence.

Didn't "Irish need not apply" happen not that long ago? Victims become bullies quickly it seems. Let's stereotype because it's easier than critical thinking.

FWIW the Irish immigration system has extremely favoured the educated ones that pay the awful 40%+ tax to the gov. For once the gov knows what they are doing. It's set up for the multinationals to bring their workforce with them. If asked, most of them would rather move to London where they at least get prime location for similar high rent. They are funding the social security system in place of the Irish emigrants.

01-11-2020 1:41am

zimmermania wrote: »

A feminest?,

Nope. Not what I said.

i will take it as a compliment,in the 1970s while campaigning for a socialist candidate in the general election a group of us were canvassing in a reasonably large rural village.

<snip>

I was glad of the man's perception in those dark days,

So... no relevant response then. Ok.

01-11-2020 2:01am

andy2323 wrote: »

It's not about the left.vs right. In most countries it's been the trend for a while.

In developed countries.

E.g.: Japan has an extremely homogeneous society, with strong male-female role and generous benefit schemes for babies. They have been trying for 10+ years and still fail to increase birth rate.

The problem for Japan is cultural. The focus on work commitment and being productive, along with the hierarchical nature of their organisations means that employees, are required to work very long hours, often forced to go drinking with their colleagues or bosses after work. Start early at work, and finish late. And due to the high costs of properties in the cities, most have long commutes after work to go home. Between the cost in time, the stress involved, and other considerations, many couples barely see each other (especially if both are working), and due to the stress, fertility rates have dropped considerably.

Then there's also been a culture of shame regarding sex growing in Japan for the last two generations, with many people deciding to become celibate since they feel they're not getting what they want from it. Having babies just brings a ream of extra costs (in time and money), so many prefer to skip it entirely.

China also have a hard time convincing its citizens to have more children. And it's still quite expected for women to quit their career to take care of the family in these societies. Throwing money at the problem doesn't make it go away.

China has different issues. There's never been an accurate census done for China's population, with all amounts being estimates. Due to local party corruption, a massive migrant population which moves around, etc, it's very difficult to get a reasonably accurate figure for China.

The real problems for China, though, is it's abortion culture and lowering fertility among Chinese people. Having a child outside of marriage is still a huge deal, with many turning to suicide as a result. Abortion is commonplace, and you can see advertisements for it everywhere... and at very low prices. (the suicides happen because you need to use your government ID for the abortion, and it'll be reported to the parents). So, they have a really large amount of babies being aborted each month... which cuts into their population growth.. which is becoming even more of an issue nowadays with the CCPs morality movement.

The second issue is due to pollution and low quality foodstuffs/water. Fertility rates across China are dropping considerably, and it's been linked to trace elements in the water, and the extremely dodgy food that's often available. China has a street food culture, with people eating out at restaurants more than at home, so they're ingesting foods which aren't healthy. Combined with the air pollution, this has caused serious problems for fertility, and fertility clinics are all the rage at the moment. As is getting someone other than your wife to carry the child, and give birth, since so many miscarriages have happened over the last decade or so.

And then there's the rising costs of living, the demands on working harder, etc. It all adds up.

Didn't "Irish need not apply" happen not that long ago? Victims become bullies quickly it seems. Let's stereotype because it's easier than critical thinking.

So.. apply some critical thinking rather than dismissing what he said.

andy2323 · 01-11-2020 2:06am

Deleted User wrote: »

In developed countries.

And then there's the rising costs of living, the demands on working harder, etc. It all adds up.

It's not just developed countries. It's one of the biggest problems for developing countries. There's a term for that: getting old before getting rich. csis[.]org/analysis/will-many-developing-countries-get-old-they-get-rich

And as you said, clearly throwing the money at the problem doesn't fix it.

Deleted User wrote: »

So.. apply some critical thinking rather than dismissing what he said.

His sentence is a slippery slope. And I'm pointing out it is for what it is.

seenitall · 01-11-2020 2:07am

Deleted User wrote: »

Old country? Ahh.. nah. I've no idea what you're referring to. It's not like we're American, talking about Europe.

Typically, it makes little financial sense for the father to stay at home while the mother works. There's far more supports available for mothers than there are for fathers, both legally and in society. Women get away with more absences from work, than a man would.. including a far greater chance at flexi-time, or some other work scheme for mothers. It's just the way things are. The advantages are firmly directed towards women, so... why give them up, just so that the father stays at home instead of the mother. Now... if there was equality for fathers and mothers, then I expect you'd see more fathers staying at home, simply because women can make more money in many jobs than men depending on the industry.

As for the difference in politics. There isn't the interest. If Irish women wanted to be career politicians, they would be. Except they're not. There are no barriers to them running for office, building a network of supporters, etc but they're simply not interested in that kind of work. I've noticed the people most interested in women being in politics, have no interest in doing so themselves, and expect others to do the work...

Oh, sure, some women are, and they do participate, and some will reach higher positions... but it's worth considering how many men participate at various levels of politics, and never get anywhere. Since the focus is on genders, rather than individuals, it's easy to miss that large percentage of males who enter politics never succeed. Nobody cares, because they're looking at genders.

It’s just the way things are? Well perhaps there are reasons for the way things are? Like, cultural ones? For example, where I come from used to be communist, so everyone worked (more accurately, everyone had a job, heh) and childcare was cheap and plentiful. Women worked the hours that men did, it was just standard. So that culture stayed after the fall of communism. Kind of, equality of opportunity in most spheres of life, which meant the non-gendered views on who gets paid what and for what work. The supports that are there for the home staying parent aren’t gendered. Are they in Ireland? The salaries that are garnered in the professions aren’t gendered. Are they so in Ireland? Because if they are, then I understand what you are saying and why things are as they are in Ireland. But if that is not the case, then I would say that the reason that “ it’s just the way things are”, is more cultural than anything else. After all, culture will influence economic policies such as a greater chance at flexitime or some other work scheme, to be directed solely at one sex. That sounds wrong to me.

As for politics, again, culture. Why else would women not be interested in this work? It is vital work, but also long hours and a lot of dedication needed. Women in Ireland seem to want to be running more closely to a traditional role, and less time spent at work. That’s culture. Unless there are some significant obstacles to their greater participation... which would probably bring us back to the same word, anyway.

TomTomTim · 01-11-2020 9:18am

andy2323 wrote: »

Didn't "Irish need not apply" happen not that long ago? Victims become bullies quickly it seems. Let's stereotype because it's easier than critical thinking.

If wanting my country to function at its best, its most cohesive, makes me a bully in your eyes, then I'll accept the label. Posters like yourself never bring up the cost of anything, all you do is try and use history against people, without any care for the road that lays ahead of us. The dream of functional multiculturalism has not found a home, and likely never will, so we'd be better to cut our losses, than continuing an experiment that clearly doesn't work.

Sand · 01-11-2020 12:25pm

andy2323 wrote: »

It's not about the left.vs right. In most countries it's been the trend for a while. E.g.: Japan has an extremely homogeneous society, with strong male-female role and generous benefit schemes for babies. They have been trying for 10+ years and still fail to increase birth rate. China also have a hard time convincing its citizens to have more children. And it's still quite expected for women to quit their career to take care of the family in these societies. Throwing money at the problem doesn't make it go away.

Hungary has been throwing money at the problem and it is working for them. Good policy affects outcomes. Otherwise whats the point of government?

It's set up for the multinationals to bring their workforce with them.

Exactly.

Sand · 01-11-2020 12:35pm

One point that I think is being missed in the feminism vs. children debate, is that women are not making a choice to not have children, or have fewer children. Women are actually having less children than they want to have. This has been studied in the US which one presumes doesn't have many cultural hangups

As a result, the gap between the number of children that women say they want to have (2.7) and the number of children they will probably actually have (1.8) has risen to the highest level in 40 years. (From 1972 to 2016, men have expressed almost exactly the same ideal fertility rates as women: In a given year, they average just 0.04 children below what women say is ideal.)

There is no dispute between men and women. Its not a feminism vs. patriarchy argument. Men and women both want to have more children than they actually end up having. If anything, women want the (slightly) bigger family. If women were having the 2.7 children they wanted in life, then we would have no issues whatsoever. But they're not. Government policy can help if this is actually identified as a valuable goal for society.

Eric Cartman · 01-11-2020 1:34pm

Sand wrote: »

One point that I think is being missed in the feminism vs. children debate, is that women are not making a choice to not have children, or have fewer children. Women are actually having less children than they want to have. This has been studied in the US which one presumes doesn't have many cultural hangups

There is no dispute between men and women. Its not a feminism vs. patriarchy argument. Men and women both want to have more children than they actually end up having. If anything, women want the (slightly) bigger family. If women were having the 2.7 children they wanted in life, then we would have no issues whatsoever. But they're not. Government policy can help if this is actually identified as a valuable goal for society.

Its kind of a funny one, the movement that freed women from being housewives and gave women ‘all the options’ took away one of the options they want the most. Men arent looking to have children till their mid to late 30s , taking away time to even have more children. Additionally most men will not get into a relationship with a woman who plans to drop out of the workforce, which limits that option. Two incomes, career drive and having children later and less of them are a modern necessity almost.

seenitall · 01-11-2020 1:38pm

When I was a student, I had a stint au pairing in a big family (5 kids). It wasn’t too dissimilar to running a small, customer-facing business. Always someone’s needs waiting to be met and a goodly amount of physical work to be undertaken every day (cooking, cleaning, doing laundry, serving food etc.) I think modern Europeans have lost the yen for this. The society has individualised and there are other things to actualise oneself through, more rewarding and more satisfying to People’s ego. Sure, it’s nice to say it would be ideal to have 3 or more children, however reality shows up that the outcome of having 2 won’t be much different (you still get to have a family, and in most cases some grandchildren as well), it will just be much cheaper, less strenuous and less time-consuming than having 3,4,5 etc. You can take 2 children travelling anywhere easily, it’s not too much of a hassle. When the number of people grows, so does the hassle, the expense and the time involved. The cost to benefit ratio is not that appealing, the higher the number.

The cultures where this kind of consideration is immaterial are the ones where poverty and lack of education means big influences will be religious ones, with the religious command to procreate, and where all the work required falls on to the shoulders of the woman of the house, which is no consideration at all, because the woman doesn’t get to have an opinion on this. She is a domestic servant and a baby-making machine. While such systems are allowed to flourish in western societies, it is a golden ticket for these men; western Welfare feeds all their numerous babies, while women do all the work. The system is not about individual actualisation but sticking to their community and its way of life, and perpetuating the religion and culture-driven inequalities. Once these women start to become more westernised in their behaviours, the birth rate plummets. You have ‘honour’ killings and burkas precisely in order to keep women knowing their place and on track to churning out as many religious new humans as possible.

Sand · 01-11-2020 1:46pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Its kind of a funny one, the movement that freed women from being housewives and gave women ‘all the options’ took away one of the options they want the most.

I recall someone summarized feminism as the belief that a woman working for her employer's benefit is free, whereas a woman working for her family's benefit is a slave. I'd add that you could say something similar about men. Arguably, feminism as an ideology is beneficial to corporate interests: what use have they for housewives? It's one less employee to drive down wages and one less consumer to boost spending. Individuals are far more profitable than families.

Falling birthrates aren't even a problem for them, they can always import more consumers/employees from abroad.

Sir Oxman · 01-11-2020 3:02pm

Hamachi wrote: »

I had the ‘pleasure’ of attending an all-day workshop on inclusiveness before lockdown. Some of it was actually fine. Treat others as you would like to be treated yourself; love thy neighbor etc..Basically a common sense approach to being a decent human being.

And that is all that needs to be said in any company, group, institute etc.
That's it, above.

Wibbs · 01-11-2020 5:56pm

Sand wrote: »

Arguably, feminism as an ideology is beneficial to corporate interests: what use have they for housewives? It's one less employee to drive down wages and one less consumer to boost spending. Individuals are far more profitable than families.

Falling birthrates aren't even a problem for them, they can always import more consumers/employees from abroad.

Very much so and one big reason why feminism got such a push over the last 30 years. It's got little enough to do with equality or freedom. In many ways one drudgery replaced another. Never mind the media's near constant push to make women feel insecure and in need of the dopamine hit of consumerism to "improve them".

Funny, but funnier because of recognition.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOlJ_jCLHmo

Eric Cartman · 01-11-2020 6:28pm

Wibbs wrote: »

Very much so and one big reason why feminism got such a push over the last 30 years. It's got little enough to do with equality or freedom. In many ways one drudgery replaced another. Never mind the media's near constant push to make women feel insecure and in need of the dopamine hit of consumerism to "improve them".

Funny, but funnier because of recognition.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOlJ_jCLHmo

its the same reason all these companies are #BLM , #pridemonth , politicians are pandering to caring about migrants etc... its that feel good factor that women respond to. They're responsible for over 80% of consumer spending and over 85% of credit card debt. If you want to sell, sell to women.

Guy:Incognito · 04-11-2020 3:53pm

What a charming lady mrs Barrett is

https://twitter.com/RebBarrettNP/status/1323817647738396678?s=19

Wibbs · 04-11-2020 4:16pm

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

What a charming lady mrs Barrett is

https://twitter.com/RebBarrettNP/status/1323817647738396678?s=19

Sure what would you expect from a pig but a grunt.

04-11-2020 4:38pm

TBH I wouldn't have remembered the elections were happening except for RTE promoting it all the time.

seenitall · 04-11-2020 5:11pm

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

What a charming lady mrs Barrett is

https://twitter.com/RebBarrettNP/status/1323817647738396678?s=19

Wow wow wow. This seems to be a day of shocks for me, all kinds. That’s actually properly disgusting. How can someone who tweets something like this look at themselves in the mirror? I’ll never understand it.

04-11-2020 5:47pm

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

What a charming lady mrs Barrett is

https://twitter.com/RebBarrettNP/status/1323817647738396678?s=19

The page is down now.

nj27 · 04-11-2020 5:50pm

What did it say

bigpink · 04-11-2020 7:59pm

Take the African community in Ireland for example huge number are scumbags and ittakes away from the smaller minority that good folk

Guy:Incognito · 04-11-2020 8:36pm

nj27 wrote: »

What did it say

Screenshot-2020-11-04-12-44-09-995-com-twitter-android.jpg

Gervais08 · 04-11-2020 8:41pm

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

That is absolutely vile.

04-11-2020 9:56pm

Gervais08 wrote: »

That is absolutely vile.

Why? Genuinely curious...

Since covid hit Europe, I've seen much worse than that... some on boards (there were at least three large threads with worse comments about China and Chinese people), and a lot more on social media.

Cordell · 04-11-2020 11:51pm

It doesn't make this any better.

CharlesMartel · 05-11-2020 12:35am

Twitter what a waste of time. The scumbags insulting the gormless.

Yellow_Fern · 06-11-2020 11:27pm

Against the 27th: More Open Borders Activism on Irish Campuses
http://www.theburkean.ie/articles/2020/11/06/against-the-27th-more-open-borders-activism-on-irish-campuses

enricoh · 06-11-2020 11:43pm

We need loads of migrants coming here to pay our pensions, this scumbag was confused n thought he was to take our pensions!
We really are taking in any dregs that turn up.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/courtandcrime/arid-40077257.html

Kivaro · 06-11-2020 11:59pm

enricoh wrote: »

We need loads of migrants coming here to pay our pensions, this scumbag was confused n thought he was to take our pensions!
We really are taking in any dregs that turn up.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/courtandcrime/arid-40077257.html

Just in case anybody misses the story here:
"A Romanian national begging on the street targeted two elderly people, told them made-up sob stories for years and gradually got them to hand over their entire life savings, scamming a grand total of €330,000."

I know that some on here on boards will blame the gullibility of the elderly Irish natives who fell victim of this scam, but the reality is that there are a lot of older Irish people unprepared for this type of imported onslaught.

We are more than likely talking about a Roma Gypsy who perpetrated this crime. For the life of me, I cannot think of a valid reason why Roma Gypsies are allowed en masse into Ireland. All I hear about is terrible stories of thief, begging and criminality from these people.

My own unforgettable experience with them was at the wake of a well-known young local hurler where there were hundreds of people lined up to pay their respects at a funeral home. A car passed by and noticed the crowd and pulled over and 4 young Roma Gypsy men popped out and proceeded to beg from everyone who were standing waiting to go into the funeral home. They would not leave the mourners alone until the Gardai were called, and then they got into the car with great merriment, making sure that their laughter was heard deep into the crowd.

I will gladly listen to any alternative positive stories of Roma Gypies in Ireland ..... if there are any out there.

07-11-2020 1:05am

Kivaro wrote: »

I will gladly listen to any alternative positive stories of Roma Gypies in Ireland ..... if there are any out there.

That's nice, but the article states it was a Romanian who was involved, and I don't see any reference to the Roma Gyspies.. so.. no, I'm not particularly interested in bitching about foreign Travellers.

In any case, yes, they (the Irish) should have known better. 300k? bloody hell. Irish people were never that gullible, since we had our own scam artists to contend with. Nope. No sympathy as such from me. Yes, it's terrible that it happened, but.. this is the real world. Don't be a fool.

Kivaro · 07-11-2020 8:48am

I post this:

I know that some on here on boards will blame the gullibility of the elderly Irish natives who fell victim of this scam, but the reality is that there are a lot of older Irish people unprepared for this type of imported onslaught.

And the very next post starts with the victim blaming. Whatever you want to call these Irish pensioners, they were still victims of criminal acts by this Romanian. The judge in the case called it "merciless exploitation".

Deleted User wrote: »

..... In any case, yes, they (the Irish) should have known better. 300k? bloody hell. Irish people were never that gullible, since we had our own scam artists to contend with. Nope. No sympathy as such from me. Yes, it's terrible that it happened, but.. this is the real world. Don't be a fool.

I accept that you have no sympathy for the victims, but many of us do.

07-11-2020 10:23am

Foolish or vulnerable, likely a bit of both. I'd imagine they were completely unprepared for that level of deceitful scumbaggery.

I hope this tramp is not allowed stay on Ireland after he is let out in about 2 years.

Gervais08 · 07-11-2020 10:32am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Foolish or vulnerable, likely a bit of both. I'd imagine they were completely unprepared for that level of deceitful scumbaggery.

I hope this tramp is not allowed stay on Ireland after he is let out in about 2 years.

After my dad had to be cared for in the nursing home I found dozens of Jehovas Wirness pamphlets. Some people are not foolish but ill and being taken advantage of.

I hope every scum bag has a cellmate with an elderly relative and gets a good kicking in jail.

07-11-2020 11:59am

Gervais08 wrote: »

One of the most sickening things I have read on here has to be siding with scum who swingle the elderly and vulnerable.

Are you claiming that i'm siding with the people who did this? you are way out of order. Go on, show where in any of my writing where I did that, otherwise, I'd like an apology.

Kivaro wrote: »

I post this: And the very next post starts with the victim blaming.

You set up the discussion when you prefaced your post with that statement. What? you think posters will be silent because you've unleashed the guilt trip?

Victim blaming, is such an incredibly negative concept that has been allowed to breed in our society. Personal responsibility. The elderly couple were foolish. That foolishness is on them.

Whatever you want to call these Irish pensioners, they were still victims of criminal acts by this Romanian. The judge in the case called it "merciless exploitation".

You sought to pass this on to the Roma Gypsies, so I'd imagine you have some beef with them, rather than talk about the details in the article (or provided some evidence of the connection). Had you done so, I'd have more belief that this is about the elderly couple, and not plugging your own bias.

I accept that you have no sympathy for the victims, but many of us do.

Sure. And that's your call...

Kivaro · 07-11-2020 12:37pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Victim blaming, is such an incredibly negative concept that has been allowed to breed in our society. Personal responsibility. The elderly couple were foolish. That foolishness is on them.

It's a pity that you are doubling down on blaming the elderly victims of this crime.

Deleted User wrote: »

You sought to pass this on to the Roma Gypsies, so I'd imagine you have some beef with them, rather than talk about the details in the article (or provided some evidence of the connection). Had you done so, I'd have more belief that this is about the elderly couple, and not plugging your own bias.

Plugging my bias?
Here is the info on the criminal:
"During all this time, over a period of seven years, Iosca was being paid social welfare allowance, disability payments, rent allowance, child allowance and travel allowance, generating a further family income of €650 per week."
So, not only was he creaming it on our social welfare system, he was also a full time professional beggar for the 7 years he was in Ireland. And you are having major issues of him depicted as a Roma Gypsy.

I'll let you with this from the court details:
"Throughout this investigation, Bradut Iosca showed no remorse for his actions or for the financial constraints both victims now find themselves in."
Compassion would be expected by most people reading about this case, and the manner in which you are portraying the elderly victims is distasteful, and your lack of sympathy is duly noted.

kildare lad · 07-11-2020 1:01pm

Kivaro wrote: »

It's a pity that you are doubling down on blaming the elderly victims of this crime.

Plugging my bias?
Here is the info on the criminal:
"During all this time, over a period of seven years, Iosca was being paid social welfare allowance, disability payments, rent allowance, child allowance and travel allowance, generating a further family income of €650 per week."
So, not only was he creaming it on our social welfare system, he was also a full time professional beggar for the 7 years he was in Ireland. And you are having major issues of him depicted as a Roma Gypsy.

I'll let you with this from the court details:
"Throughout this investigation, Bradut Iosca showed no remorse for his actions or for the financial constraints both victims now find themselves in."
Compassion would be expected by most people reading about this case, and the manner in which you are portraying the elderly victims is distasteful, and your lack of sympathy is duly noted.

That's mental and all the bleeding hearts/NGOs will tell you that these are all gonna be doctors and engineers and they'll be paying our pensions. Besides begging, having loads of kids and sponging ,they don't do anything else . Even normal Romanians hate gypsies

sabat · 07-11-2020 1:08pm

Kivaro wrote: »

I will gladly listen to any alternative positive stories of Roma Gypies in Ireland ..... if there are any out there.

I know of several Roma families here where the husband goes out to work a full week in places like factories and warehouses and they would have a normal family life. You wouldn't even guess they were Roma apart from the mother wearing long skirts. It's important to note that there are many different sub-ethnicities and clans within Roma, and their lifestyle and even their language differs greatly. You might notice some women wearing a burgundy coloured velvet skirt with a white geometric trim at the bottom and often a white headscarf-I know they're from Eastern Romania/Moldova or even as far as the Caucuses.

07-11-2020 1:10pm

Kivaro wrote: »

It's a pity that you are doubling down on blaming the elderly victims of this crime.

I don't get this desire to twist things. Personal responsibility does not negate the responsibility of the people who caused the scam. The Romanian is responsible for what he did, and the people involved are responsible for not being careful with their money. This is not excusing the crime, as much as you want to suggest it is.

This wasn't the giving a hundred euros to a beggar, or falling to a minor scam. This was a lot of money, so, yes, I would consider them to be extremely foolish.. and responsible for their own foolishness.

Plugging my bias?
Here is the info on the criminal:
"During all this time, over a period of seven years, Iosca was being paid social welfare allowance, disability payments, rent allowance, child allowance and travel allowance, generating a further family income of €650 per week."
So, not only was he creaming it on our social welfare system, he was also a full time professional beggar for the 7 years he was in Ireland. And you are having major issues of him depicted as a Roma Gypsy.

Major issues? Where did I say that? I had an issue with you plugging the Roma gypsy line... and using it to whip up condemnation against that group.

Again, deal with what I've written, and stop with the emotional outbursts.

Links to the details on his background? I've looked at a variety of articles, and I don't see the info you just posted. Not that I'm saying it's not true, but... come on... provide the links which provide your "quoted" details.

I'll let you with this from the court details:
"Throughout this investigation, Bradut Iosca showed no remorse for his actions or for the financial constraints both victims now find themselves in."
Compassion would be expected by most people reading about this case, and the manner in which you are portraying the elderly victims is distasteful, and your lack of sympathy is duly noted.

And I have no issue with any of that. I do believe anyone to be taken in by such scams to be foolish, and I do feel that the man should be punished for what he did.

mohawk · 07-11-2020 1:23pm

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

Against the 27th: More Open Borders Activism on Irish Campuses
http://www.theburkean.ie/articles/2020/11/06/against-the-27th-more-open-borders-activism-on-irish-campuses

This week youth Labour had a similar campaign online. There was a time Labour would of gotten a vote from me but definitely no more. I remember why the amendment passed so easily.

If you have the required skills for work where you can support yourself and your children then I have no issues with you applying for Citizenship after a few years.

Patrick2010 · 07-11-2020 1:25pm

kildare lad wrote: »

That's mental and all the bleeding hearts/NGOs will tell you that these are all gonna be doctors and engineers and they'll be paying our pensions. Besides begging, having loads of kids and sponging ,they don't do anything else . Even normal Romanians hate gypsies

Used to think Klaz was one of the best posters on this thread, can't believe he is blaming two elderly pensioners for trying to help someone.
Of course they were foolish but the question has to be how no one in their banks asked why they were taking out so much money.
This guy arrived in the country without ever contributing a cent and was funded to the tune of 650 euro a week. Does anyone in SW never investigate these.

07-11-2020 1:27pm

Kivaro wrote: »

It's a pity that you are doubling down on blaming the elderly victims of this crime.

Plugging my bias?
Here is the info on the criminal:
"During all this time, over a period of seven years, Iosca was being paid social welfare allowance, disability payments, rent allowance, child allowance and travel allowance, generating a further family income of €650 per week."
So, not only was he creaming it on our social welfare system, he was also a full time professional beggar for the 7 years he was in Ireland. And you are having major issues of him depicted as a Roma Gypsy.
.

WTF are we doing with the likes of him here costing the state that sort of money.

Kivaro · 07-11-2020 1:30pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Again, deal with what I've written, and stop with the emotional outbursts.

Links to the details on his background? I've looked at a variety of articles, and I don't see the info you just posted. Not that I'm saying it's not true, but... come on... provide the links which provide your "quoted" details.

Emotional outbursts? Yikes.
You are the one that's digging the big hole.

And now you want me to provide links about his welfare benefits while he was in Ireland? But since you used "" above to highlight your doubt on what I said, here you go:
https://www.rte.ie/news/munster/2020/1106/1176429-sentence-deceiving-elderly/

It really was not very difficult to find. Not sure of the variety of articles that you looked at, or how hard you tried. I'm going to leave you at it from here, as your lack of sympathy in this case is somewhat bewildering.

Kivaro · 07-11-2020 1:33pm

Patrick2010 wrote: »

Used to think Klaz was one of the best posters on this thread, can't believe he is blaming two elderly pensioners for trying to help someone.
Of course they were foolish but the question has to be how no one in their banks asked why they were taking out so much money.
This guy arrived in the country without ever contributing a cent and was funded to the tune of 650 euro a week. Does anyone in SW never investigate these.

I honestly thought it was a different Klaz that was posting e.g. Klaaz or someone like that, and had to double-check that it was the poster above. A bit surprised alright.

07-11-2020 1:34pm

Patrick2010 wrote: »

Used to think Klaz was one of the best posters on this thread, can't believe he is blaming two elderly pensioners for trying to help someone.
Of course they were foolish but the question has to be how no one in their banks asked why they were taking out so much money.
This guy arrived in the country without ever contributing a cent and was funded to the tune of 650 euro a week. Does anyone in SW never investigate these.

Where is the blame? I said that they were foolish. You said that they were foolish. Kivaro is seeking to remove all responsibility from victims and pass it elsewhere. I don't agree with that. We should be encouraging a world where people are responsible for their own behavior/choices, not giving them a free pass. It doesn't mean that the perpetrator is being excused for what they did.

The claim of Victim blaming is dangerous because it's often used to pass responsibility away and to set others up for abuse. We've seen this happen with women who have been assaulted, where the circumstances of the assault have no importance because the women were victims. No lessons to be learned. No suggestion that women take care of themselves, but rather, the focus is entirely placed elsewhere. And the same will happen here with this scam, or other scams that will occur in the future.

Kivaro · 07-11-2020 1:35pm

sabat wrote: »

I know of several Roma families here where the husband goes out to work a full week in places like factories and warehouses and they would have a normal family life. You wouldn't even guess they were Roma apart from the mother wearing long skirts. It's important to note that there are many different sub-ethnicities and clans within Roma, and their lifestyle and even their language differs greatly. You might notice some women wearing a burgundy coloured velvet skirt with a white geometric trim at the bottom and often a white headscarf-I know they're from Eastern Romania/Moldova or even as far as the Caucuses.

Interesting information.
Thanks for that.

07-11-2020 1:39pm

Kivaro wrote: »

Emotional outbursts? Yikes.
You are the one that's digging the big hole.

And now you want me to provide links about his welfare benefits while he was in Ireland? But since you used "" above to highlight your doubt on what I said, here you go:
https://www.rte.ie/news/munster/2020/1106/1176429-sentence-deceiving-elderly/

It really was not very difficult to find. Not sure of the variety of articles that you looked at, or how hard you tried. I'm going to leave you at it from here, as your lack of sympathy in this case is somewhat bewildering.

Look. Lets make this easy. Any evidence to show that this Romanian man was of the Roma Gypsies? Since that was my main objection to your OP, and the basis for your rant about Roma Gypsies? (asking others to join in on condemning them)

And thank you for providing the link to your quoted piece. It's generally standard practice to provide such references when quoting external sources.

I used "quoted piece" not to show doubt, but to ask for the link.

What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

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