Irish Property Market 2020 Part 2

PropQueries wrote: »

So you would agree that to move all these the rents/prices must drop substantially? If they do move to sell/rent them over the next twelve months that will have a big corresponding impact on the second-hand home rental/sales market as both the price of new builds and second-hand homes are highly correlated.

Very hard to sell a c-rated two bed apartment for €300k if an a-rated two bed apartment if seeking the same price across the road.

No I do not agree. It could be that the intended class of tennants are now recently returned to their home countries and are WFH.

You are dreaming if you think the owners would off load these on the market at the same price as lower quality stock. I'd imagine if they did list them for sale, you would use them as an example of overpriced property.

cnocbui wrote: »

No I do not agree. It could be that the intended class of tennants are now recently returned to their home countries and are WFH.

You are dreaming if you think the owners would off load these on the market at the same price as lower quality stock. I'd imagine if they did list them for sale, you would use them as an example of overpriced property.

Foreign workers WFH in their home countries had nothing to do with the number of vacant apartments detailed in the Sunday Business Post article from last February.

PropQueries wrote: »

Well if someone was living in that property they would be contributing to the local economy i.e. shopping locally, using local services like garages, plumbers etc. on a regular basis. There’s a case to be made that owners of such properties who decide to keep them vacant should be taxed to make up that shortfall...

If it had a BER rating it would be -Z; think stone building built in 1893. It would take a capital injection about equivalent to building a 3-bed house from scratch, or more, to make it habitable by modern standards. It's also in the middle of nowhere so is not depriving the local economy. I haven't checked lately, but locally there was a whole slew of new built GFC peak houses that were mostly empty and unsold for years due to the GFC and lack of demand. As far as I can see the area, like the rest of Connemara, is dying a long slow death.

Absolutely no justification whatsoever why I should be taxed more because I am unprepared to take a huge financial risk I think might result in a substantial loss.

And to put the icing on the cake, if such a tax were brought in, I couldn't even sell up to avoid it because of a long running legal problem that would make that impossible.

cnocbui wrote: »

Well I wouldn't know, as you linked to a pay-walled article.

Here you go. No paywall.

https://www.dublinlive.ie/news/dublin-news/hundreds-plush-properties-laying-vacant-17800453

cnocbui wrote: »

If it had a BER rating it would be -Z; think stone building built in 1893. It would take a capital injection about equivalent to building a 3-bed house from scratch, or more, to make it habitable by modern standards. It's also in the middle of nowhere so is not depriving the local economy. I haven't checked lately, but locally there was a whole slew of new built GFC peak houses that were mostly empty and unsold for years due to the GFC and lack of demand. As far as I can see the area, like the rest of Connemara, is dying a long slow death.

Absolutely no justification whatsoever why I should be taxed more because I am unprepared to take a huge financial risk I think might result in a substantial loss.

And to put the icing on the cake, if such a tax were brought in, I couldn't even sell up to avoid it because of a long running legal problem that would make that impossible.

Well just like they tax cigarettes to discourage smoking, a vacant home tax would discourage people from sitting on them and put it to productive use. You would find a solution to the legal issues fairly quickly if you had to pay €5,000 a year until it was resolved.

Interesting recent article on the derelict site tax/CPO from limerick here: https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/munster/arid-40072286.html

cnocbui wrote: »

This overpriced thing on here is such a nonsense.

I recently had a pair of high quality earphones which I put up for sale on Adverts. Not a nibble, so I put them up on eBay and sold them in a couple of weeks. The prevailing logic in this thread of what overpriced means would have me as an evil profiteer who was simply asking too much, even selling at a loss.

I hate to even mention it for fear of off-topic Mod-lash, but I think the real problem is disposable incomes, not so much prices.

just curious what the problem with disposable incomes is here ..


Disposable income in Ireland rose 28% between 2012 and 2019

The CSO agency’s latest Survey on Income and Living Conditions shows the average after-tax income of households here stood at €53,118 in 2019.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/disposable-income-in-ireland-rose-28-between-2012-and-2019-1.4392329%3fmode=amp

combat14 wrote: »

just curious what the problem with disposable incomes is here ..


Disposable income in Ireland rose 28% between 2012 and 2019

The CSO agency’s latest Survey on Income and Living Conditions shows the average after-tax income of households here stood at €53,118 in 2019.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/disposable-income-in-ireland-rose-28-between-2012-and-2019-1.4392329%3fmode=amp

It’s because just like the government believes it should get its cut from your hard work, property investors believe they should get a similar cut.

It is funny how they say “but you earn so much money”. What’s that got to do with the price a young person should pay for a property?

Young people are also not going to get a pension so that should also be factored into the “disposable income” debate.

PropQueries wrote: »

To be fair to your situation though, I wouldn’t be in favour of a substantial tax on your property. maybe 1% on “market value” just to get such people thinking of alternative uses. Someone with in excess of 5 vacant properties though would make perfect sense. Doesn’t impact the regular person then.

So tens of thousands of euros in tax over the several decades the property couldn't even be disposed of? Your lack of grasp of the practicalities some people face is epic.

cnocbui wrote: »

So tens of thousands of euros in tax over the several decades the property couldn't even be disposed of? Your lack of grasp of the practicalities some people face is epic.

If it doesn’t make financial sense, people should be encouraged to sell it, even for €1, like these houses in Liverpool. If they can’t invest, I don’t see why local people who live near such properties should have to see such an eyesore every morning.

If land is a commodity in such short supply (and it’s not), then it’s up to the government to ensure it’s all put to productive use for the benefit of everyone. Such encouragement in a democracy normally comes via the tax system e.g. tax on cigarettes etc.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-merseyside-34474378

PropQueries wrote: »

If it doesn’t make financial sense, people should be encouraged to sell it, even for €1, like these houses in Liverpool. If they can’t invest, I don’t see why local people who live near such properties should have to see such an eyesore every morning.

If land is a commodity in such short supply (and it’s not), then it’s up to the government to ensure it’s all put to productive use for the benefit of everyone. Such encouragement in a democracy normally comes via the tax system e.g. tax on cigarettes etc.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-merseyside-34474378

Ha, ha, ha. No one who has ever laid eyes on it has called it an eyesore. That's a new one. Besides which, it's not visible from anywhere:



Are you hard of reading? I can't sell, even for €1. If I did invest, I would not be able to charge a rent commensurate with the capital outlay. There is no shortage of local properties to rent in the area, there is an oversupply.

With such a mind boggling socialist attitude you need to go live in Cuba or somewhere.

PropQueries wrote: »

Because the article was written in late February. Lockdown didn’t happen until mid March and then it was only expected to last two weeks.

I have my doubts about this article anyway, I randomly picked one Grand Canal Dock building - Hanover Court:

Prices:

One bed apartments – Sold Out
Two bed apartments from €675,000
Three bed apartments – Sold Out
https://hanovercourt.ie/

So not as empty as made out.

PropQueries wrote: »

I wouldn’t move to Cuba. I’d move to Washington D.C. in the states:

“The "Fiscal Year 2011 Budget Support Act of 2010" created a Class 3 property tax rate for vacant commercial and residential properties and a Class 4 tax rate for blighted properties in the District of Columbia. Class 3, vacant property, is taxed at $5.00 per $100 of assessed value and Class 4, blighted property, is taxed at $10.00 per $100 of assessed value.”

Link here: https://otr.cfo.dc.gov/page/otr-vacant-real-property

But the house prices in DC are overvalued and due to crash lol :-)

dor843088 wrote: »

A 2 bed apartment for 675k in Dublin . Mother of god. Even being generous its probably only worth half that.

Maybe. It prety much entirely depends on what it cost to build and it's quality and location. Everything else in that building sold out, so assuming they were priced accordingly, they might not be asking too much. Clearly enough people saw value in the smaller and larger apartments so I susspect the buyers of those have a different perspective on value than you.

Is a 5 bedroom house ever worth €10.5 million? It probably depends.

cnocbui wrote: »

Maybe. It prety much entirely depends on what it cost to build and it's quality and location. Everything else in that building sold out, so assuming they were priced accordingly, they might not be asking too much. Clearly enough people saw value in the smaller and larger apartments so I susspect the buyers of those have a different perspective on value than you.

Is a 5 bedroom house ever worth €10.5 million? It probably depends.

The 40 apartments in that development have been on sale for the past 18 months. PPR registers 21 sales so c, 50% maybe empty at the moment. I also wonder how many will/have been bought and let to the council?

It’s a nice development and very well located. Surprised they haven’t all sold by now given all those high paid employees in Google apparently all on €100,000 plus per year and the massive supply shortage in the area...

cnocbui wrote: »

Ha, ha, ha. No one who has ever laid eyes on it has called it an eyesore. That's a new one. Besides which, it's not visible from anywhere:



Are you hard of reading? I can't sell, even for €1. If I did invest, I would not be able to charge a rent commensurate with the capital outlay. There is no shortage of local properties to rent in the area, there is an oversupply.

With such a mind boggling socialist attitude you need to go live in Cuba or somewhere.

Don’t take this as an attack, but I agree with taxation of properties that have been empty for a long period of time. If the property needs repairs to be fit for living in it, that should be the problem or the owner that did not keep it properly. If there is a legal issue, that is the problem of the owner, it would need to be resolved.