COVID-19: Vaccine/antidote and testing procedures Megathread [Mod Warning - Post #1]

CIARAN_BOYLE · 30-10-2020 12:29PM

Sconsey wrote: »

There's a layer of complexity I hadn't really considered but seems kind of obvious now I read it. It may be a case that we have a few vaccines coming available at around the same time. One vaccine may be more effective at reducing transmission, another may be more effective at preventing Covid symptoms. Planning needs to happen to distribute the 'strategicaly optimum' vaccine to people.
Health care workers should be first in line for whatever vaccine is most effective at reducing the transmission rate. High-risk people should probably be first in line for a vaccine which is most effective at treating symptoms.
It's all another possible layer of complexity in the distribution. Maybe I'm being too optimistic, there may not be any choice/decision to be made, it might be a case of 'take whatever is available at the time' (which would still be a good outcome really).

I think that we would be very lucky if there is either a leading vaccine candidate that can do both or if we have competition candidates with strengths.

I wonder how it would go if we have an approved vaccine but a better one is due soon. Will health care workers and High risk people be asked to take multiple vaccines or will it be a case of one vaccine then move onto the next in priority.

My parents suspect they will be asked to take 4 or 5 multistage vaccines as better ones come along. Could it be that they are vaccinated 5 times before I'm vaccinated once?

marno21 · 30-10-2020 12:39PM

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Last week they were asked and were told that there's a HSE team putting together a plan to roll out vaccines and they will report shortly.

Those three letters are giving me anxiety already.

I hope there’s proper oversight here - getting a successful outcome here is far too important for the country as a whole for it to be yet another disorganised shambles.

holdyerhorses · 30-10-2020 01:10PM

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

I think that we would be very lucky if there is either a leading vaccine candidate that can do both or if we have competition candidates with strengths.

I wonder how it would go if we have an approved vaccine but a better one is due soon. Will health care workers and High risk people be asked to take multiple vaccines or will it be a case of one vaccine then move onto the next in priority.

My parents suspect they will be asked to take 4 or 5 multistage vaccines as better ones come along. Could it be that they are vaccinated 5 times before I'm vaccinated once?

And what studies will be done into taking 2 of those different coronavirus vaccines in a short period of time. None. Yet there will be people suggesting that if you dont take them, you're not doing your bit, and mandating you cannot travel without proof of taking them.

CIARAN_BOYLE · 30-10-2020 01:30PM

holdyerhorses wrote: »

And what studies will be done into taking 2 of those different coronavirus vaccines in a short period of time. None. Yet there will be people suggesting that if you dont take them, you're not doing your bit, and mandating you cannot travel without proof of taking them.

I agree that many people would resist taking multiple vaccines in close succession. Hopefully it is kept to a reasonable number.

It is fairly obvious to me that the first generation vaccine is not a silver bullet. I'm not in a at risk group. The amount of time I would expect before a second generation vaccine being available will be something to consider before taking a first generation vaccine.

Hmmzis · 30-10-2020 01:52PM

holdyerhorses wrote: »

And what studies will be done into taking 2 of those different coronavirus vaccines in a short period of time. None. Yet there will be people suggesting that if you dont take them, you're not doing your bit, and mandating you cannot travel without proof of taking them.

It's not quite like mixing entirely different drugs. All the vaccines express the same antigens (S protein of the virus) so it would be more like taking the same drug but from different manufacturers and different doses.
It would be a different story if one would try to mix it with other vaccines in a single vial, then the full phase 1/2/3 path needs to be taken as it would be classed as a new drug.

I'd think one would get any subsequent shots only if the first regimen didn't induce an adequate response (i.e. negative AB test or if titers are below the correlate of protection).

Marhay70 · 30-10-2020 02:40PM

marno21 wrote: »

Those three letters are giving me anxiety already.

I hope there’s proper oversight here - getting a successful outcome here is far too important for the country as a whole for it to be yet another disorganised shambles.

Be reasonable, when has there ever been any oversight in any area of the Civil Service? The latest debacle with the hand sanitiser is testament to that.

holdyerhorses · 30-10-2020 03:04PM

Hmmzis wrote: »

It's not quite like mixing entirely different drugs. All the vaccines express the same antigens (S protein of the virus) so it would be more like taking the same drug but from different manufacturers and different doses.
It would be a different story if one would try to mix it with other vaccines in a single vial, then the full phase 1/2/3 path needs to be taken as it would be classed as a new drug.

I'd think one would get any subsequent shots only if the first regimen didn't induce an adequate response (i.e. negative AB test or if titers are below the correlate of protection).

Yes, second para is right, and agree, but it's a massive assumption, especially in the case of mRNAs, that there wouldn't be side effects. I dont think anyone could argue for it to he safe to administer multiple subsequent new vaccines without any prior safety analysis.

Right, but how do you prove the last para, testing? Is that the solution, you antibody test everyone vaccinated to determine immune response and if not adequate, onto the next one?

hmmm · 30-10-2020 07:37PM

I think until Ciaran_Boyle's parents are put in charge of vaccination strategy for the country, the terrifying possibility of being offered multiple vaccines isn't something to be getting worked up about.

If there are multiple vaccines, each will be allocated to specific groups based on how effective they are and how well tolerated they have been during trials.

Thierry12 · 30-10-2020 08:03PM

hmmm wrote: »

I think until Ciaran_Boyle's parents are put in charge of vaccination strategy for the country, the terrifying possibility of being offered multiple vaccines isn't something to be getting worked up about.

If there are multiple vaccines, each will be allocated to specific groups based on how effective they are and how well tolerated they have been during trials.

Don't know

There is a concern for adenovirus based vaccines like Oxford.

Supposedly they work well the first time but may not be effective 2nd, 3rd, 4th time etc

For adenovirus vaccines to work, the adenovirus has to be something your body has never seen before. The Oxford vaccine guarantees this by using an adenovirus found only in monkeys.

What happens when your body has seen it before with the 5th, 6th vaccine dose etc?

If Covid reinfections are common, and immunity doens't last long

You'll want vaccines that you can reuse and give out, say yearly, to boost everyone's immune system.

But that may not be possible with adenovirus vaccines, because the second time you get injected, your body will recognize and kill the virus particles without responding to the spike protein.

Hmmzis · 30-10-2020 08:11PM

holdyerhorses wrote: »

Yes, second para is right, and agree, but it's a massive assumption, especially in the case of mRNAs, that there wouldn't be side effects. I dont think anyone could argue for it to he safe to administer multiple subsequent new vaccines without any prior safety analysis.

Right, but how do you prove the last para, testing? Is that the solution, you antibody test everyone vaccinated to determine immune response and if not adequate, onto the next one?

When it comes to mRNA, I wouldn't be so sure there is even a plausible mechanism for any adverse events to happen when administered consecutively with other mRNA constructs expressing the same proteins (they'd effectively be identical). If there are please post a link, I think it would be very informative. There might be some safety flags with replication competent viral vecotrs when administered this way, live attenuated types as well (maybe?).

When it comes to ensure that the vaccines have induced an immune response, I think AB testing would be needed when it comes to imperfect vaccines. I don't think it's feasible on the whole population but the high risk and high exposure people should be checked at a minimum. I guess this document will need a section or two added as well - https://www.hse.ie/eng/health/immunisation/hcpinfo/guidelines/chapter4.pdf

Just out of interest, what would your opinion the matter be?

JacksonHeightsOwn · 30-10-2020 08:11PM

Thierry12 wrote: »

Don't know

There is a concern for adenovirus based vaccines like Oxford.

Supposedly they work well the first time but may not be effective 2nd, 3rd, 4th time etc

For adenovirus vaccines to work, the adenovirus has to be something your body has never seen before. The Oxford vaccine guarantees this by using an adenovirus found only in monkeys.

What happens when your body has seen it before with the 5th, 6th vaccine dose etc?

If Covid reinfections are common, and immunity doens't last long

You'll want vaccines that you can reuse and give out, say yearly, to boost everyone's immune system.

But that may not be possible with adenovirus vaccines, because the second time you get injected, your body will recognize and kill the virus particles without responding to the spike protein.

So you've figured this out, but all these college educated epidemiologistd in Oxford couldn't..........

I think ill trust the people in Pfizer and Oxford before some random poster on boards.... No offence.

hmmm · 30-10-2020 08:12PM

Thierry12 wrote: »

But that may not be possible with adenovirus vaccines, because the second time you get injected, your body will recognize and kill the virus particles without responding to the spike protein.

Sure, but we'll cross that bridge in a year or two when we come to it.

The poster was talking about a series of vaccines in a short period of time.

Thierry12 · 30-10-2020 10:03PM

chrisbonnie wrote: »

So you've figured this out, but all these college educated epidemiologistd in Oxford couldn't..........

I think ill trust the people in Pfizer and Oxford before some random poster on boards.... No offence.

None taken ;-)

Dont worry they all know that, no one will be taking my advice lol, its nothing an 18 year old studying virologist student wouldn't know

Those vaccines are an emergency treatment, the 2nd, 3rd, 4th gen vaccines will be looking into that issue

My point is we are going to be fire fighting Covid tilll we find a cure

Gael23 · 30-10-2020 11:37PM

What’s causing the issues with the flu vaccine?

Hmmzis · 30-10-2020 11:49PM

Gael23 wrote: »

What’s causing the issues with the flu vaccine?

What issues in particular are you interested in? There are lots of issues with the flu jabs, the most notable caused by the rapid antigen drift of the virus itself.

Gael23 · 30-10-2020 11:52PM

Hmmzis wrote: »

What issues in particular are you interested in? There are lots of issues with the flu jabs, the most notable caused by the rapid antigen drift of the virus itself.

Why you can’t get one? GPS havent got any

ACitizenErased · 31-10-2020 12:05AM

Gael23 wrote: »

Why you can’t get one? GPS havent got any

Almost every pharmacy has them now, Boots have tonnes of appointments

Marhay70 · 31-10-2020 12:11AM

Everyone I know has had their flu jab (all those in high risk categories) we had ours in September. I'd be asking questions of my GP as you say you are in that category.

holdyerhorses · 31-10-2020 12:29AM

Hmmzis wrote: »

When it comes to mRNA, I wouldn't be so sure there is even a plausible mechanism for any adverse events to happen when administered consecutively with other mRNA constructs expressing the same proteins (they'd effectively be identical). If there are please post a link, I think it would be very informative. There might be some safety flags with replication competent viral vecotrs when administered this way, live attenuated types as well (maybe?).

When it comes to ensure that the vaccines have induced an immune response, I think AB testing would be needed when it comes to imperfect vaccines. I don't think it's feasible on the whole population but the high risk and high exposure people should be checked at a minimum. I guess this document will need a section or two added as well - https://www.hse.ie/eng/health/immunisation/hcpinfo/guidelines/chapter4.pdf

Just out of interest, what would your opinion the matter be?

I agree about the mRNAs in theory, but I wouldn't like to be the guinea pig after 30k participant trials over 9 months.

The AB testing matter? Yes, I think it would be a reasonable approach in the short-term to try to test the vulnerable to check for an immune response. Mostly my thought is that the political (mandates, passports, etc) should not be allowed influence the decision making on the science. From the comments on here, talk is generally of those two concerns w/o deeper understanding of science, risk, probability etc.

Gael23 · 31-10-2020 12:41AM

Would a vaccine bring an end to the 2 metre distance requirement?

hmmm · 31-10-2020 01:19AM

https://www.irishexaminer.com/business/economy/arid-40072388.html

"The head of the Irish drugs firm that is involved in international Covid-19 vaccine trials said that large parts of the vulnerable Irish population will have been vaccinated against Covid-19 by April or May, promising to transform the economic outlook by next summer.

Cathal Friel, executive chairman of pharmaceutical services firm Open Orphan, said economic restrictions will “by and large” be lifted by early summer because there will be a number of vaccines developed for the coronavirus available around the world by that time."

funnydoggy · 31-10-2020 01:21AM

hmmm wrote: »

https://www.irishexaminer.com/business/economy/arid-40072388.html

"The head of the Irish drugs firm that is involved in international Covid-19 vaccine trials said that large parts of the vulnerable Irish population will have been vaccinated against Covid-19 by April or May, promising to transform the economic outlook by next summer.

Cathal Friel, executive chairman of pharmaceutical services firm Open Orphan, said economic restrictions will “by and large” be lifted by early summer because there will be a number of vaccines developed for the coronavirus available around the world by that time."

April or May for the vulnerable?

What's the hold up??

smurfjed · 31-10-2020 04:15AM

Saudi’s numbers have remained around 400 (new cases and recovered / population 34 million ) for the last couple of weeks. They reopen to international religious travel tomorrow. It will be interesting to see if they release this vaccine quickly enough to stop the case numbers increasing.

China’s Sinovac coronavirus vaccine is set to be administered to Saudi patients after passing third stage clinical trials, but remains on hold until approved by the Saudi Food and Drug Authority.

King Abdullah International Medical Research Center (KAIMRC) signed an agreement with China’s Sinovac Biotech to receive a vaccine for COVID-19 to be distributed to about 7,000 health workers.
The vaccine has passed the third stage of trials at the King Abdullah Center for the National Guard.
“So far there have been no health complications or allergic reactions in those who have tried the vaccine, except for a fever or mild migraine, but that is normal when vaccination is administered with any virus,” said Aref Al-Amri, head of the Department of Biomolecules and Cytogenetics at the regional laboratory in Riyadh.

Would YOU take the Chinese vaccine if available?

smurfjed · 31-10-2020 04:29AM

I actually have a pop-up offering to sell me SINOVAC, but I have to take 10,000 packets, so is anyone interested

:)

Talisman · 31-10-2020 06:51AM

Artificial intelligence model detects asymptomatic Covid-19 infections through cellphone-recorded coughs (MIT News, Oct 29, 2020)

The researchers trained the model on tens of thousands of samples of coughs, as well as spoken words. When they fed the model new cough recordings, it accurately identified 98.5 percent of coughs from people who were confirmed to have Covid-19, including 100 percent of coughs from asymptomatics — who reported they did not have symptoms but had tested positive for the virus.

CIARAN_BOYLE · 31-10-2020 08:53AM

Gael23 wrote: »

Would a vaccine bring an end to the 2 metre distance requirement?

It depends.

A full successful one would.

A less successful one (that still passes trials) would not.

Gael23 · 31-10-2020 09:22AM

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

It depends.

A full successful one would.

A less successful one (that still passes trials) would not.

Less successful being the early vaccines we will see next year?

jackboy · 31-10-2020 09:24AM

hmmm wrote: »

https://www.irishexaminer.com/business/economy/arid-40072388.html

"The head of the Irish drugs firm that is involved in international Covid-19 vaccine trials said that large parts of the vulnerable Irish population will have been vaccinated against Covid-19 by April or May, promising to transform the economic outlook by next summer.

Cathal Friel, executive chairman of pharmaceutical services firm Open Orphan, said economic restrictions will “by and large” be lifted by early summer because there will be a number of vaccines developed for the coronavirus available around the world by that time."

Germany are going to have this done in a few weeks time. This is a serious red flag. Sounds like the plans are already in complete disarray.

NH2013 · 31-10-2020 09:25AM

Gael23 wrote: »

Less successful being the early vaccines we will see next year?

We don’t know yet how successful those first vaccines will be, we’ve still yet to see the hard data on them from the trials.

There’s no reason to suspect they might not be good enough just because they’re the first versions.

is_that_so · 31-10-2020 10:21AM

Study on the use of aspirin with COVID patients but as cautioned it needs a randomized clinical trial to confirm.

Hospitalized COVID-19 patients who were taking a daily low-dose aspirin to protect against cardiovascular disease had a significantly lower risk of complications and death compared to those who were not taking aspirin.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/10/201022195637.htm

COVID-19: Vaccine/antidote and testing procedures Megathread [Mod Warning - Post #1]

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