National Broadband Plan or Starlink

celtic_oz · 17-05-2020 12:47pm #1

Understood products are not comparable probably in speed or cost. But it could potentially be a good interim solution

To those waiting for decent broadband in the "intervention areas" which do you think will rescue you first ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAQ_rGbivaM

ED E · 17-05-2020 4:15pm

FCC are in a fight with the DoD in the states at the moment. Why? Because spectrum is very very finite. Starlink has this problem just like other wide area solutions.

Its a great solution for ships, oil rigs, aviation, research bases in the arctic. Its a non runner for mass market.

celtic_oz · 17-05-2020 4:48pm

ED E wrote: »

Its a great solution for ships, oil rigs, aviation, research bases in the arctic. Its a non runner for mass market.

Sounds like a bit more than that, not urban but yes rural surely

"The US regulator has allowed Elon Musk’s SpaceX to install up to a million satellite terminals across the US for its Starlink service.

The company is making its own satellites, aiming for 1,440 in orbit by the end of 2020. It already has approval for a total of 12,000.

Last October the FCC approached the International Telecommunication Union (ITU) to seek a licence for another 30,000 Starlink satellites on top of that 12,000.

The satellites, orbiting between 328km and 580km above the Earth’s surface, making the round-trip ground-satellite-ground latency around 30ms, will provide global coverage – meaning SpaceX will need to apply for licences everywhere it plans to operate.

The company says: “Starlink is targeting service in the Northern US and Canada in 2020, rapidly expanding to near global coverage of the populated world by 2021.”Link

Starlink explained - why SpaceX needs 42,000 satellites

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tuFS0zOwyBg

theguzman · 17-05-2020 11:58pm

Useful if you are lucky enough to have electricity and a computer in the Congo basin, we are not the Congo basin, we are a modern developed 1st world country with 3rd world communications infrastrcuture. Luckily the NBP will address that, Starlink could be handy for campers or those who travel in the mountains alot with limited 3G/4G coverage.

celtic_oz · 18-05-2020 9:05am

Interesting negativity

So far we have "it's only good for"

ships, oil rigs, aviation, research bases in the arctic

the congo basin

Anyone want to add more obscure locations so we can name and shame over the next few years.

The Cush · 18-05-2020 10:06am

celtic_oz wrote: »

Sounds like a bit more than that, not urban but yes rural surely

Probably, for areas that will never see fibre, but let's see how it works out in the years ahead, in places like rural USA/Canada.

Luckily rural Ireland will have access to 10 Gbps fibre via the NBP.

clohamon · 27-10-2020 5:04pm

Reddit showing invitations to Starlink Beta.

https://twitter.com/nextspaceflight/status/1320927103575937025

It's called the Better Than Nothing Beta.
Estimated speeds 50Mbps to 150Mbps
Estimated latency 20ms to 40ms
Some interruptions in connectivity to be expected

celtic_oz · 27-10-2020 6:55pm

The Cush wrote: »

Luckily rural Ireland will have access to 10 Gbps fibre via the NBP.

I'll repeat the OP

But it could potentially be a good interim solution

To those waiting for decent broadband in the "intervention areas" which do you think will rescue you first ?

clohamon · 27-10-2020 8:11pm

celtic_oz wrote: »

I'll repeat the OP

To those waiting for decent broadband in the "intervention areas" which do you think will rescue you first ?

Are there any ground stations in Ireland yet, apart from wishful thinking by the usual suspect?
Have the user terminals been approved for Europe yet?

NewClareman · 27-10-2020 8:52pm

Starlink is proving to be a game changer in terms of mobile connectivity. While still in beta testing, it is already being considered for:

Rural connectivity for schools
Military Communications
‘Weather data as a service business model'
Emergency Connectivity, during disasters

Unlike fibre, it should provide broadband to moving vehicles including planes, trains and cars.

celtic_oz wrote: »

Understood products are not comparable probably in speed or cost.

If the retail cost in Europe is comparable to the US Beta it would have been far more cost effective than the NBP, for the fringes.

The initial speed and latency is pretty good, given the limited rollout of the space segment infrastructure.

The Starlink Wiki on Reddit often has the most up to date info on Starlink for people interested in following this.

NewClareman · 27-10-2020 8:59pm

clohamon wrote: »

Are there any ground stations in Ireland yet, apart from wishful thinking by the usual suspect?
Have the user terminals been approved for Europe yet?

It does not require a ground station in Ireland to deliver Internet service.

It should take far less time to receive regulatory approval, than roll out a physical network.

KildareP · 27-10-2020 9:26pm

It will save rural connectivity in much the same way as 3G was going to.

Then we were told that 4G would save us from the high contention of 3G.

Now 5G is going to save us from the high contention of 4G and 3G.

Repeat for 6G, 7G, etc.

There's only so much you can modulate over the air and that dips significantly in rain or heavy cloud cover when it has to back down the modulation big time. As for connectivity on the move, this isn't going to get around the inherent limitations of multipath and rapidly changing signal levels as objects rapidly move between you and the other end of the link which is what makes connectivity on the move so difficult with 3G,4G,SiriusXM, etc.

A ground station is not required but will cause the problem that frequently hits traditional satellite broadband insofar as geolocation is fecked and you'll get served your Google and Netflix content from wherever the earth station breaks out onto the WWW (and you'll get RTE Player International not the Irish version). Of course, satellite has never been a viable use case for streaming media due to extremely low usage caps so wasn't an issue until now.

I can't imagine Mary in Moat will be too impressed when she gets served French Netflix, told she can't watch the GAA on RTE Player because it's not available on the international player and has her SkyGo suspended because she's been "roaming" for more than 30 days.

So no, this is not a viable alternative to the NBP no more than Mr Ryan subsidising the rollout of 3's mobile network last decade on the premise everyone in thr country would be happy out forevermore on 3G dongles was.

Orebro · 27-10-2020 10:11pm

I'll believe Starlink is a viable alternative when the people advocating it cancel their Fibre to the Home connections and sign up with it - but not a moment before. What's good enough for the Goose etc.

NewClareman · 27-10-2020 10:20pm

I agree with your general point re contention, which is very much a function of infrastructure density. With sufficient cells, 4G/5G could provide reasonable broadband in rural areas. The problem is the cost of the backhaul necessary to achieve this.
Equally, there's a finite capacity for any given number of Starlink satellites. Based on filings to the FCC each each satellite in the SpaceX system provides aggregate downlink capacity to users ranging from 17 to 23Gbit/s. Assuming 100% efficiency, this means that each satellite can handle 200 simultaneous streams at 100Mbit/s. This is why it is not targeted at general broadband in densely populated areas. However, on the west edge of europe we are at an advantage from a Starlink perspective. In many cases, there will be little competition for bandwidth, as satellites fly past.

KildareP wrote: »

There's only so much you can modulate over the air and that dips significantly in rain or heavy cloud cover when it has to back down the modulation big time. As for connectivity on the move, this isn't going to get around the inherent limitations of multipath and rapidly changing signal levels as objects rapidly move between you and the other end of the link which is what makes connectivity on the move so difficult with 3G,4G,SiriusXM, etc.

With free space optics there's almost no limit to what 'you can modulate over the air'.
As for Starlink connectivity on the move... Starlink has already provided connectivity to military planes.

KildareP wrote: »

A ground station is not required but will cause the problem that frequently hits traditional satellite broadband insofar as geolocation is fecked and you'll get served your Google and Netflix content from wherever the earth station breaks out onto the WWW (and you'll get RTE Player International not the Irish version). Of course, satellite has never been a viable use case for streaming media due to extremely low usage caps so wasn't an issue until now.

The filing with ARCEP for a ground station in Gravelines, France, is expected to cover Ireland. (ARCEP is the France’s Electronic Communications, Postal and Print media distribution Regulatory Authority). Giving an Irish IP address to Irish customers is not an issue, it's trivial to implement.

So yes, Starlink should be a viable alternative to the NBP, providing regulatory approval is obtained. I'm not suggesting it should form the core of the NBP, even if that horse had not already bolted. However it could still be used to reduce the cost of serving the more remote homes.

ED E · 27-10-2020 10:41pm

These are results with basically nobody on the network. Like 4G when nobody had a 4G phone or 5G today. Add a few thousand ground stations to an area and it all grinds to a halt.

NewClareman · 27-10-2020 10:54pm

ED E wrote: »

These are results with basically nobody on the network. Like 4G when nobody had a 4G phone or 5G today. Add a few thousand ground stations to an area and it all grinds to a halt.

Those results are from early beta testers, we have simply no idea what is causing the bottleneck. I would expect that Starlink would publish service parameters, before launching a full commercial service. Only then can we be sure of how good the service is. However, based on their current rate of progress, I would expect is to be suitable for general use.

The Cush · 27-10-2020 11:54pm

SpaceX user terminals are awaiting approval for deployment in Europe once ETSI standard EN 303 981 is adopted and published, expected Jul 2021.

https://portal.etsi.org/webapp/workprogram/Report_WorkItem.asp?WKI_ID=56941

theguzman · 28-10-2020 12:39am

The $99 per month is enough to discourage me away from it anyway, that is just simply too much money per month, I would not even pay that for FTTH. With NBP Fibre you will get connectivity for €40-€55 per month same as copper now. I know Starlink will effectively be a monopoly since you won't go with them unless you have no other choice.

plodder · 28-10-2020 11:50am

Orebro wrote: »

I'll believe Starlink is a viable alternative when the people advocating it cancel their Fibre to the Home connections and sign up with it - but not a moment before. What's good enough for the Goose etc.

Ha, just checking in here for first time in months. No reason to as my OpenEir FTTH has been rock solid (no interruptions that I'm aware of) for over two years.

So, no I won't be cancelling my ftth service for this. If I was on an existing wireless system then I would be watching it closely though.

celtic_oz · 28-10-2020 7:06pm

Starlink is estimated to cost in excess of 10 billion dollars

What fools they are .. Musk et al should have just asked the boardsies.

Worse than 4g I tellz ya.. and what happens when it RAINS.

:rolleyes:

NewClareman · 28-10-2020 8:05pm

celtic_oz wrote: »

Starlink is estimated to cost in excess of 10 billion dollars...

Doesn't it compare well with the ~€3 billion cost of the NBP.

Until it rains, of course...

KildareP · 29-10-2020 7:16am

celtic_oz wrote: »

Starlink is estimated to cost in excess of 10 billion dollars

What fools they are .. Musk et al should have just asked the boardsies.

:rolleyes:

Grand. Seems like you have your mind made up and are not for changing, even when you have people who actually work in telecoms and network engineering - both fibre and microwave - offering advice based on actual, real world experience.

No point in trying to discuss so I'll leave ye to it

NewClareman · 30-10-2020 12:55pm

KildareP wrote: »

Grand. Seems like you have your mind made up and are not for changing, even when you have people who actually work in telecoms and network engineering - both fibre and microwave - offering advice based on actual, real world experience.

No point in trying to discuss so I'll leave ye to it

Satellite communications using Low Earth Orbiting Satellites is a highly specialised discipline. Any real world experience is limited to the players, led by SpaceX, working in this area. Having a background in general telecomm's is useful in attempting to follow the science involved, but that's about it.

To take just one example: comms engineers in the mobile phone industry are familiar with the complexity of handoffs between cells, particularly where there is a high density of microcells. That is as nothing compared to the complexity of the Starlink handoffs, and the number of parameters to be considered. However, such an engineering background would be useful in understanding the Starlink specs in this area.

plodder · 30-10-2020 11:49pm

NewClareman wrote: »

With free space optics there's almost no limit to what 'you can modulate over the air'.

Though that's a different technology to Starlink and doesn't work over long distances.

I think Starlink is a huge improvement over existing satellite systems but it's still a radio based satellite system. It will never compare with terrestrial fibre for capacity.

NewClareman · 30-10-2020 11:57pm

NewClareman wrote:

With free space optics there's almost no limit to what 'you can modulate over the air'.

plodder wrote: »

Though that's a different technology to Starlink and doesn't work over long distances.

I was just replying to the comment that there was a limit to what 'you can modulate over the air'.

listermint · 31-10-2020 1:23am

NewClareman wrote: »

I was just replying to the comment that there was a limit to what 'you can modulate over the air'.

Nah, lets be clear you were trying to belittle someones experience and saying you'd have to work in actual starlink to understand it. Because they are the only show in town.

Bit of elon fanboyism here i suspect. Let the brand drive the outcome...

NewClareman · 31-10-2020 1:40am

listermint wrote: »

Nah, lets be clear you were trying to belittle someones experience and saying you'd have to work in actual starlink to understand it. Because they are the only show in town.

Bit of elon fanboyism here i suspect. Let the brand drive the outcome...

I have never suggested that Starlink are the only show in town - that would be silly. It is equally silly to suggest that working in telecoms makes someone an expert in satellite communications. Even for experts in that area, Starlink brings a whole new level of complexity.

So, to be clear, I'm not belittling anyone's experience. However, I am suggesting that they are overstating the relevance of that experience, in this area. It is clear from their comments that that is the case.

listermint · 31-10-2020 1:53am

NewClareman wrote: »

I have never suggested that Starlink are the only show in town - that would be silly. It is equally silly to suggest that working in telecoms makes someone an expert in satellite communications. Even for experts in that area, Starlink brings a whole new level of complexity.

So, to be clear, I'm not belittling anyone's experience. However, I am suggesting that they are overstating the relevance of that experience, in this area. It is clear from their comments that that is the case.

No one said that, but you basically indicated the experience was irrelevant. But you were pretending to be polite.

Starlink simply cannot match fibre to the home. Now i know that might really irk you (for whatever reason) but its just how it is.

Also no one has said it doesnt have an application, of course it does. It would be silly to suggest it doesnt.

But the absolute lunacy in saying its a serious competitor to fibre to the home in a country like Ireland needs to be tackled head on for what it is.

celtic_oz · 31-10-2020 9:27am

listermint wrote: »

Also no one has said it doesnt have an application, of course it does. It would be silly to suggest it doesnt.

Actually some mentioned "congo basin" or the "artic"

listermint wrote: »

But the absolute lunacy in saying its a serious competitor to fibre to the home in a country like Ireland needs to be tackled head on for what it is.

Please stop going off topic and READ the op.

listermint · 31-10-2020 11:59am

celtic_oz wrote: »

Actually some mentioned "congo basin" or the "artic"

Please stop going off topic and READ the op.

Don't act like a moderator.

You aren't one. I'm entirely on topic.

NewClareman · 31-10-2020 12:53pm

listermint wrote: »

Starlink simply cannot match fibre to the home.

For high-bandwidth to the home, fibre is currently the gold standard.

listermint wrote: »

Now i know that might really irk you (for whatever reason) but its just how it is.

Why would I be irked???

listermint · 31-10-2020 12:55pm

NewClareman wrote: »

For high-bandwidth to the home, fibre is currently the gold standard.

Why would I be irked???

No idea. It's Saturday though that's good !

Gooey Looey · 31-10-2020 2:21pm

NewClareman wrote: »

For high-bandwidth to the home, fibre is currently the gold standard.

And also for reliability, fibre doesn't suffer from rain fade!

plodder · 31-10-2020 2:28pm

NewClareman wrote: »

For high-bandwidth to the home, fibre is currently the gold standard.

Currently and for the foreseeable future. Fibre has been on the way for decades and there is nothing on the horizon that will replace it. So, it is reasonable to presume that this won't change for decades to come.

NewClareman · 31-10-2020 3:37pm

Gooey Looey wrote: »

And also for reliability, fibre doesn't suffer from rain fade!

That's one of many reasons why it is the gold standard.

plodder wrote: »

Currently and for the foreseeable future. Fibre has been on the way for decades and there is nothing on the horizon that will replace it. So, it is reasonable to presume that this won't change for decades to come.

Free Space Optics (FSO) and Visible Light Communication (VLC) could displace fibre, in many areas. The most advanced work that I am aware of (apart from Starlink inter-satellite links) is for mobile 4G/5G front-haul/back-haul. Commercially available systems offer data rates of 2.5Gb/s while rates as high as 160 Gb/s have been reported. There is ongoing work in the area of atmospheric attenuation and rain fade margins. The research referenced is one of many.

Yeah, I know that the speeds that are being targeted in early deployments, in the order of 10Gb/s, fall well short of the capabilities of fibre. However, they are sufficient to allow the rollout of quality high speed broadband. Follow the money, the FSO market is expected to be worth over €2 billion in 2027. In my opinion, that value is a substantial undervaluation.

plodder · 31-10-2020 4:00pm

NewClareman wrote: »

Free Space Optics (FSO) and Visible Light Communication (VLC) could displace fibre, in many areas.

What percentage of the FTTH that has been or will be deployed over the next five years do you think will be displaced by those technologies?

ED E · 31-10-2020 4:38pm

NewClareman wrote: »

However, they are sufficient to allow the rollout of quality high speed broadband to the few.

Corrections mine.

People keep putting LEOs in the same ballpark as NBP/NBN etc. They aren't. Apples and oranges. If you have 500k rural hard to serve addresses 490k+ of them will be served by ground based systems. The last 10k being heavily heavily subsidised.

The families will get the internet for free. Ector County Independent School District (ECISD) is paying SpaceX $300,000 per year, with $150,000 of that coming from a nonprofit.

45 homes.
300K USD per year.

Thats $555 USD per connection per month. For maybe 100Mb, inconsistent. Does it make sense for the oil rig or the observatory atop a mountain? Sure thing. Does it make sense for residential service? F'ck no.

Don't get me wrong, its cool tech, Musk getting in on it is a signal, Bezos following says a lot. But it'll only ever be a tiny fraction of a percentage of residential connections.

celtic_oz · 31-10-2020 5:05pm

listermint wrote: »

Don't act like a moderator.

You aren't one. I'm entirely on topic.

Ha, listen to the politeness enforcer

If you READ the op it is quite reasonable that someone with a sh1ty 0.5mbs connection could be rescued by starlink for a couple of years before the NBP connects them up.

NewClareman · 31-10-2020 5:48pm

ED E wrote: »

Originally Posted by NewClareman
However, they are sufficient to allow the rollout of quality high speed broadband to the few.

Corrections mine.

People keep putting LEOs in the same ballpark as NBP/NBN etc. ...

Rather than correcting my posts, I suggest you read all the posts, to understand the context.
Free Space Optics (FSO) has the potential to replace fibre, in many terrestrial-based applications. One of the areas being targeted is to replace/augment fibre when connecting cell towers to the backbone. If this work is successful, it would dramatically recuce the cost of 5G infrastructure, allowing far greater density of cells. This would allow decent broadband service, over 5G, with far less contention. Unlike Starlink, this would transform mobile networks for everyone. Will it happen? I don't know. However, the scientists involved are at the top of their game, so I'd be slow to bet against them.

ED E wrote: »

People keep putting LEOs in the same ballpark as NBP/NBN etc. They aren't. Apples and oranges. If you have 500k rural hard to serve addresses 490k+ of them will be served by ground based systems. The last 10k being heavily heavily subsidised.

Nobody on this thread is suggesting that Starlink is an alternative to fibre, to provide service to the majority of NBP plan customers. It will be many years, if ever, before satellite systems will be used for data intensive applications, for everyone within coverage. The bandwidth required is simply too great. Could Starlink be used to reduce implementation costs for long tail NBP customers? That really depends on the Starlink rollout and performance. If that stands up, then hell, yeah. I'm working on the basis that such customers would have their service subsidised. On a similar basis, it could be an option to provide service on an interim basis, as suggested by the op.

Gooey Looey · 31-10-2020 6:15pm

A lot of ifs and buts!

NewClareman · 31-10-2020 8:49pm

Gooey Looey wrote: »

A lot of ifs and buts!

That's the nature of breaking new ground, whether a new vaccine, or new technology. There is never any certainty - otherwise research would be unnecessary.

The Cush · 31-10-2020 8:54pm

At $500 or its Irish equivalent plus VAT and shipping costs, the equipment cost is very high as an interim solution for the domestic Irish market and will probably be prohibitive.

I mentioned in another thread that a family member had to go the satellite route mid year for WFH.

The ViaSat equipment could be purchased for €180 +VAT or rented for €15 +VAT.
Installation was €116 +VAT plus connection fee of €49.90 +VAT.

The $500 Starlink cost is a self-install cost I believe, so a professional install will cost an addition €130-€150 I assume. Connection fee?

European deployment won't happen until at least H2 2021 after the ETSI completes the necessary regulatory approval.

Gets expensive for an interim 1-3 year solution.

NewClareman · 31-10-2020 9:03pm

The Cush wrote: »

...Gets expensive for an interim 1-3 year solution.

Yeah, it's looking expensive alright.

The Cush · 01-11-2020 9:10am

I'm shocked at the price people in the States are paying for crap internet speeds, no wonder Starlink is seen as their only decent option.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Starlink/comments/jkdb4s/thoughts_on_price/

If this comment is in any way a prediction of their future plans the NBP is safe from Starlink

It still remains to be seen what the actual unit cost on the terminals will be.

As this is a beta phase, the $500 may be selling them at a loss. As little as a year ago, SpaceX themselves had serious concerns about trying to get the unit cost below $1000.

plodder · 01-11-2020 10:09am

plodder wrote: »

What percentage of the FTTH that has been or will be deployed over the next five years do you think will be displaced by those technologies?

So, anyway I think the number will be, or be very close to, zero. As regards replacing fibre back haul, I suppose the wireless industry has to talk up any technology that could potentially do that, but there's a huge difference between using lasers in space where there is no atmosphere, obstacles or weather to get in the way, as compared with on the ground. So I'll believe it when I see it.

NewClareman · 01-11-2020 1:02pm

The Cush wrote: »

I'm shocked at the price people in the States are paying for crap internet speeds, no wonder Starlink is seen as their only decent option.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Starlink/comments/jkdb4s/thoughts_on_price/

If this comment is in any way a prediction of their future plans the NBP is safe from Starlink

It really depends on the cost of the last mile, for houses in remote areas. I suspect it would be more cost effective to use Starlink, and subsidise the consumer cost.
Whether that will happen is another matter. There are too many vested interests in the status quo. Not least ComReg, and their consultants, who wouldn't want their current approach held up to scrutiny.

The Cush · 02-11-2020 2:23am

STARLINK INTERNET SERVICES LIMITED has been registered with the CRO

Number 677409

Name STARLINK INTERNET SERVICES LIMITED

Address 5TH FLOOR, BEAUX LANE HOUSE
MERCER STREET LOWER
DUBLIN 2
IRELAND
D02DH60

Registered 08/09/2020

Related, Tibro- https://www.reddit.com/r/Starlink/comments/j8b6bn/starlink_australia_came_out_of_stealth_mode_after/

Parent Country UNITED STATES

Number 909165

Name TIBRO CORP

Address 5TH FLOOR,
BEAUX LANE HOUSE,
MERCER STREET LOWER,
DUBLIN 2
D02DH60

Registered 13/03/2019

NewClareman · 02-11-2020 3:49am

The Cush wrote: »

STARLINK INTERNET SERVICES LIMITED has been registered with the CRO

SpaceX is joining forces with Microsoft to form Azure Space. As Ireland is a hub for Microsoft cloud services in Europe, we can expect a Starlink earth station here, sooner rather than later.

theguzman · 03-11-2020 11:15pm

Probably launder the profits through our corporate tax system on 0.1% tax or whatever too, setup their European headquarters in Dublin, also Ireland would be closer to North America by Fibre to shave a few milliseconds off the ping also. If Starlink can be hand for €70 per month or less I would get it until the NBP arrives once I saw some real world test figures.

celtic_oz · 03-11-2020 11:48pm

theguzman wrote: »

If Starlink can be hand for €70 per month or less I would get it until the NBP arrives once I saw some real world test figures.

Are you off to the congo or maybe camping until the NBP arrives

NewClareman · 04-11-2020 4:53am

theguzman wrote: »

...Ireland would be closer to North America by Fibre to shave a few milliseconds off the ping also.

Why would this be the case???

National Broadband Plan or Starlink

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