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Issue with Manger

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13

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    #62
    OMM 0000
    Registered Users Posts: 3,733 ✭✭✭OMM 0000


    Strumms wrote: »
    Learn from it too, in a busy work environment maybe in future, jot down tasks you are supposed to do in your phone by photographing the task assignment schedule / sheet , or noting it on piece of paper.

    This really is the lesson learned here.

    You can't change your manager, but you can change yourself.

    If you are forgetful, just make a list of tasks and tick them off one by one.


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    #63
    KyussB
    Registered Users Posts: 2,314 ✭✭✭KyussB


    OMM 0000 wrote: »
    He's been in the company less than a year, so his only recourse is the Industrial Relations Act, and the employer can just ignore the ruling. This is all in the link you provided.
    Seems to me like the OP has a good chance of securing a ruling in his favour - and if a business ignores that, can then get the ruling published widely in newspapers, and forever have that associated with the companies name - something which can cost a business a lot of money and lost business opportunity, through reputational damage.

    A lot of businesses choose to settle in such circumstances as well, rather than suffer the reputational damage.

    It's inferior to having proper rights against unfair dismissal - but it's well worth researching and seeking professional advice on, and seriously considering undertaking.


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    #64
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,170 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    KyussB wrote: »
    Seems to me like the OP has a good chance of securing a ruling in his favour - and if a business ignores that, can then get the ruling published widely in newspapers, and forever have that associated with the companies name - something which can cost a business a lot of money and lost business opportunity, through reputational damage.

    A lot of businesses choose to settle in such circumstances as well, rather than suffer the reputational damage.

    It's inferior to having proper rights against unfair dismissal - but it's well worth researching and seeking professional advice on, and seriously considering undertaking.

    How much reputation damage do unfavourable rulings really do to the employer? I would imagine that it is hard to quantify loss in monitory terms so I can’t understand how you are sure that they would lose a lot of money. By publishing it, would there also be a risk to the op’s reputation?

    Personally I think dismissal was a harsh punishment for forgetting to do the tasks, but only if this was a one off. As another poster said, we may only be getting the version that shows the op in the best light.


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    #65
    OMM 0000
    Registered Users Posts: 3,733 ✭✭✭OMM 0000


    KyussB wrote: »
    Seems to me like the OP has a good chance of securing a ruling in his favour - and if a business ignores that, can then get the ruling published widely in newspapers, and forever have that associated with the companies name - something which can cost a business a lot of money and lost business opportunity, through reputational damage.

    A lot of businesses choose to settle in such circumstances as well, rather than suffer the reputational damage.

    It's inferior to having proper rights against unfair dismissal - but it's well worth researching and seeking professional advice on, and seriously considering undertaking.

    I'd agree with you if he was a high paid executive but he's a part-time forklift driver (or similar). The expense of getting a solicitor likely would't be worth it.


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    #66
    KyussB
    Registered Users Posts: 2,314 ✭✭✭KyussB


    Justice isn't for executives only. Workers at all levels have had successful cases using that legislation:
    https://www.legal-island.ie/articles/ire/features/hr/2016/nov/probation-unfair-dismissal-industrial-relations-act-1969/
    https://employmentrightsireland.com/unfair-dismissal-during-the-probationary-period/

    Useful doc, here:
    https://www.workplacerelations.ie/en/publications_forms/labour_court_user_guide.pdf

    Does not look to require expensive legal representation. Best research it well, though - and speak to a trade union body, who would have experience and can likely offer free advice.


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    #67
    OMM 0000
    Registered Users Posts: 3,733 ✭✭✭OMM 0000


    KyussB wrote: »
    Justice isn't for executives only. Workers at all levels have had successful cases using that legislation:
    https://www.legal-island.ie/articles/ire/features/hr/2016/nov/probation-unfair-dismissal-industrial-relations-act-1969/
    https://employmentrightsireland.com/unfair-dismissal-during-the-probationary-period/

    Useful doc, here:
    https://www.workplacerelations.ie/en/publications_forms/labour_court_user_guide.pdf

    Did you read these though?

    They agree with what I said:

    the Labour Court’s recommendation is not legally enforceable unless both parties have agreed prior to the hearing to be bound by the outcome.

    Why would any employer agree to be bound by the outcome?


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    #68
    KyussB
    Registered Users Posts: 2,314 ✭✭✭KyussB


    We already dealt with that earlier - even without it being binding, it may still be worth the OP's time - and may not have much or any cost associated with it.

    If the OP is going to be unemployed due to his employer stiffing him - then he may have plenty of time to spend, seeking justice and potentially getting a decent payout - and if not, getting to rightfully publicly/vocally harm the reputation of his employer.


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    #69
    OMM 0000
    Registered Users Posts: 3,733 ✭✭✭OMM 0000


    KyussB wrote: »
    We already dealt with that earlier - even without it being binding, it may still be worth the OP's time - and may not have much or any cost associated with it.

    If the OP is going to be unemployed due to his employer stiffing him - then he may have plenty of time to spend, seeking justice and potentially getting a decent payout - and if not, getting to rightfully publicly/vocally harm the reputation of his employer.

    I don't agree with your idea, but anyway, the OP can think about it.


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    #70
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    NewMan1982 wrote: »
    Seems an over the top reaction If there has been no issues up until now.

    Good question, which I can't see if anyone else has asked... have there been any other issues before now or was this the first time there was any issue?

    Saying the forgotten tasks is "silly" goes a lot towards your attitude towards your work. If I were your manager I would not be impressed by it.

    As for those who say whats the big deal - we don't know if it was. Maybe someone else was waiting for that pallet to be unpacked or the other one moved, so they could do their job. A knock on effect.

    Your boss sounds like he lost patience with a lacksidasical employee. Lesson learned for your next role.


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    #71
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Ryzken wrote: »
    How's it going.

    Last wednesday i had a bit of a issue with my manager, I had being given some tasks too finish before i finished for the day, Now i got most of those done and forgot too do 2 things before i went home but the supervisor was happy enough with what i got done in that day.

    Thats kind of an odd way to phrase it. Did you not remember the other two tasks the manager had assigned you when you were running what you had done that day by the supervisor?


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    #72
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users Posts: 25,753 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    KyussB wrote: »
    We already dealt with that earlier - even without it being binding, it may still be worth the OP's time - and may not have much or any cost associated with it.

    If the OP is going to be unemployed due to his employer stiffing him - then he may have plenty of time to spend, seeking justice and potentially getting a decent payout - and if not, getting to rightfully publicly/vocally harm the reputation of his employer.


    Failing probation because you have demonstrated that you are unable to follow basic instructions is not being stiffed.

    The OP may be able to take legal action (if s/he can afford the lawyer) if s/he lives in Dublin or maybe Cork. But anywhere smaller, the reputational damage to the employee will well outweight any payment.


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    #73
    KyussB
    Registered Users Posts: 2,314 ✭✭✭KyussB


    The OP has already suffered reputational damage through being fired, even random strangers like yourself who know little-to-nothing about the situation are making disparagements - so will other employers.

    The labour court provides an avenue for attempting to undo the damage already done to the OP's reputation.


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    #74
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    By your logic, that means anyone thats ever been fired has suffered "reputational damage" and can sue their employer.

    Thats nonsense.


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    #75
    smellyoldboot
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,075 ✭✭✭smellyoldboot


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    By your logic, that means anyone thats ever been fired has suffered "reputational damage" and can sue their employer.

    Thats nonsense.

    Well I wouldn't go mentioning in any future interviews I got fired from a position for incompetence or use that employer as a reference. There's definitely reputational damage tbh.


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    #76
    KyussB
    Registered Users Posts: 2,314 ✭✭✭KyussB


    Ya being fired absolutely does cause reputational damage - and if it was done unfairly or without proper procedure, it's absolutely something to challenge.

    That's an added reason to go to the labour court, even if the business ignored a ruling in your favour: It undoes that reputational damage.


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    #77
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    KyussB wrote: »
    Ya being fired absolutely does cause reputational damage - and if it was done unfairly or without proper procedure, it's absolutely something to challenge.

    That's an added reason to go to the labour court, even if the business ignored a ruling in your favour: It undoes that reputational damage.

    A very big IF in this case. Stop leading the OP down a garden path.


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    #78
    KyussB
    Registered Users Posts: 2,314 ✭✭✭KyussB


    It's up to the OP to decide if they wanted to pursue this, and if they did, to get professional advice to see if it's worthwhile. They have perfectly good options to explore, here.

    You've not shown anything which marks this as 'leading the OP down a garden path' - and it's deceitful for you to suggest that, especially given you were already piling-on and disparaging the OP earlier in the thread - now feigning 'concern' for them...


    Got to watch for forums like this and others where there are different class interests between one set of posters and another - on one forum, landlords and tenants - on here, employers/management and employees - because you will get a whiff of one group of posters trying to dissuade tenants/employees from exercising their rights.


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    #79
    Strumms
    Registered Users Posts: 24,904 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    Deleted User wrote: »
    A very big IF in this case. Stop leading the OP down a garden path.

    Nobody is being led down a garden path from what I can tell, advice and solid advice is being offered in good faith from what I can see. The OP can evaluate what they are reading and has the option to take it or leave it....


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    #80
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    KyussB wrote: »
    It's up to the OP to decide if they wanted to pursue this, and if they did, to get professional advice to see if it's worthwhile. They have perfectly good options to explore, here.

    You've not shown anything which marks this as 'leading the OP down a garden path' - and it's deceitful for you to suggest that, especially given you were already piling-on and disparaging the OP earlier in the thread - now feigning 'concern' for them...


    Got to watch for forums like this and others where there are different class interests between one set of posters and another - on one forum, landlords and tenants - on here, employers/management and employees - because you will get a whiff of one group of posters trying to dissuade tenants/employees from exercising their rights.

    I find it laughable that anyone would suggest reputational damage when being fired happened as a result of the OPs own actions. Instead, it somehow gets turned into the employer's fault?

    If they had done their job, they wouldn't have been let go. End of story.

    The employer can let them go for any reason in the first six months. They were there for four months.

    Some people like to make mountains out of molehills, and legal action out of nothing. Thats what I call leading someone down the garden path.


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    #81
    KyussB
    Registered Users Posts: 2,314 ✭✭✭KyussB


    You judge the OP as worthy of firing, grand - many others disagree, and view it as an unfair dismissal that has damaged the OP's reputation.

    If the OP thinks these were unfair grounds for dismissal, then he has options available, here - and only relevant experts that he consults offline, can give him a clear idea of whether it's worthwhile pursuing or not - that's the opposite of the garden path bollocks.

    Losing your job is not a trivial event, especially in todays economy - that is hardly making 'mountains out of molehills', that is not nothing - and especially when it unfairly leads to damage to your reputation. It's not like you're on the OP's side here - you're clearly dismissive of them and intent on dissuading them from exploring their options.


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    #82
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    I think there are some here including yourself working very hard to convince the OP he was unfairly dismissed.

    I'm not persuading or dissuading them of doing anything. If they want to wander down that garden path, its their own time and money they're wasting, not mine or yours.

    At the end of the day, this was all avoidable, if the OP had simply done the tasks he was assigned. This is on him. No one else. He damaged his own reputation, no one did it for him.


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    #83
    OMM 0000
    Registered Users Posts: 3,733 ✭✭✭OMM 0000


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I think there are some here including yourself working very hard to convince the OP he was unfairly dismissed.

    He's doubling down because he doesn't want to admit his idea doesn't make a lot of sense, so no matter what you say he'll respond saying he's correct.

    At this stage it has nothing to do with helping the OP and all about trying to "win".


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    #84
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    I think it's very odd to be fired over forgetting a couple of trivial tasks amongst a load of other tasks. There's more to that story, but I'm not interested in speculating.

    As for all this talk about reputational damage the vast majority of jobs I've had have had very little interest in what I did before. They are only interested in what I can do for them now. Even for those that ask for references they very rarely been checked.

    Not everyone gets on with everyone, so its logical that not all jobs will work out. It's really only a problem if you can't ever hold a job for longer than a few months. That will be red flag.

    If I was the OP I'd just forget about it and move on. Get another job after a year or two no one will care about this one on.


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    #85
    Ryzken
    Registered Users Posts: 26 ✭Ryzken


    beauf wrote: »
    I think it's very odd to be fired over forgetting a couple of trivial tasks amongst a load of other tasks. There's more to that story, but I'm not interested in speculating.

    As for all this talk about reputational damage the vast majority of jobs I've had have had very little interest in what I did before. They are only interested in what I can do for them now. Even for those that ask for references they very rarely been checked.

    Not everyone gets on with everyone, so its logical that not all jobs will work out. It's really only a problem if you can't ever hold a job for longer than a few months. That will be red flag.

    If I was the OP I'd just forget about it and move on. Get another job after a year or two no one will care about this one on.


    What i done was a easy mistake could of happened too anybody. I didn't just try and leave it. I went back down after he phoned me. And didn't want me too do it. But there's a supervisor in there bullying staff which is noted who has being screaming and shouting at stuff telling them to do their ****ing jobs etc and she still has her job after it's all being documented by management. So what i done is nothing compared too the stuff that is going on there


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    #86
    mrslancaster
    Registered Users Posts: 1,786 ✭✭✭mrslancaster


    It seems dismissal during probation is not as straightforward as it was since the brennan's hotel manager case & this case recently.
    https://www.rdj.ie/insights/termination-during-probation---what-are-the-risks--?s=0.301711838471I

    It looks like employers who want to dismiss for poor performance or misconduct must follow their disciplinary procedures even during probation.

    If employers want to dismiss during probation as happened to the OP, does the contract now need to include a clause to say that employment can be terminated during probation for no particular reason or that company disciplinary/grievance policy does not apply during probation. Is that even legal?

    If it's not specified in the contract then does the OP have grounds to dispute how he was fired?


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    #87
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Ryzken wrote: »
    What i done was a easy mistake could of happened too anybody. I didn't just try and leave it. I went back down after he phoned me. And didn't want me too do it. But there's a supervisor in there bullying staff which is noted who has being screaming and shouting at stuff telling them to do their ****ing jobs etc and she still has her job after it's all being documented by management. So what i done is nothing compared too the stuff that is going on there

    I wouldn't lose sleep over it. Was basically what I was saying. Sounds like your better off out the place.


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    #88
    bucketybuck
    Registered Users Posts: 18,213 ✭✭✭✭bucketybuck


    KyussB wrote: »
    If the OP thinks these were unfair grounds for dismissal, then he has options available, here - and only relevant experts that he consults offline, can give him a clear idea of whether it's worthwhile pursuing or not - that's the opposite of the garden path bollocks.

    I'm curious, what do you and others think the outcome of legal action would be for the OP?

    He had a 20 hours a week contract and was there only 4 months, and from the tasks mentioned appears to work in a warehouse environment or something similar.

    Reinstatement? I doubt that would end well. A big payoff? He would need to win first and I don't like his odds. Reputational damage? People move on from low hours contracts all the time, nobody will care about his firing, but damn sure future employers care about people who bring their employers to court...

    Its easy to shout about going to court but its not always the best option, even if he was treated a bit unfairly.


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    #89
    KyussB
    Registered Users Posts: 2,314 ✭✭✭KyussB


    There's a page and a half of posts which have already discussing that. The exact part of the post you quote says that only a relevant expert i.e. legal professional can tell him whether it's wortwhile or not.


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    #90
    bucketybuck
    Registered Users Posts: 18,213 ✭✭✭✭bucketybuck


    There are a page and a half of posts advising the OP to go the legal route or not, very few of them say what their expected outcome is.

    It isn't a trick question, if he goes the legal route what should the OP expect at the end of it all?


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    #91
    OMM 0000
    Registered Users Posts: 3,733 ✭✭✭OMM 0000


    mrslancaster wrote: »
    It seems dismissal during probation is not as straightforward as it was since the brennan's hotel manager case & this case recently.
    https://www.rdj.ie/insights/termination-during-probation---what-are-the-risks--?s=0.301711838471I

    It looks like employers who want to dismiss for poor performance or misconduct must follow their disciplinary procedures even during probation.

    If employers want to dismiss during probation as happened to the OP, does the contract now need to include a clause to say that employment can be terminated during probation for no particular reason or that company disciplinary/grievance policy does not apply during probation. Is that even legal?

    If it's not specified in the contract then does the OP have grounds to dispute how he was fired?

    Come on, we're not seriously trying to pretend a part-time forklift driver (correct me if I'm wrong Ryzken) should go to the high court over this? I've been to the high court and it cost over 100k.

    That's what your link is talking about, the CFO of a multinational going to high court.


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