New price for VW ID4?

snowdaze · 13-10-2020 4:26pm #1

I can't figure out if the price has come down in the budget or not?

Anyone know?

boardzz · 13-10-2020 5:07pm

Looks like the VRT has halved for full Electric vehicles. 14% down to 7%.
The cheapest Model 3 should now be 1400 less

snowdaze · 13-10-2020 6:02pm

boardzz wrote: »

Looks like the VRT has halved for full Electric vehicles. 14% down to 7%.
The cheapest Model 3 should now be 1400 less

great news - thanks for that!

Black_Knight · 13-10-2020 6:18pm

But the 5k grant is being tapered off for electric vehicles. Up to a price of 40k I think. So less vrt to pay, but possibly no 5k grant.

Leonard Hofstadter · 14-10-2020 12:58am

Black_Knight wrote: »

But the 5k grant is being tapered off for electric vehicles. Up to a price of 40k I think. So less vrt to pay, but possibly no 5k grant.

The grant is gone for hybrids and plug-ins at the end of the year, there is still the €5k relief for EVs but only those with a purchase price up to €40k, it gets tapered after that so there is nothing at all if the car has an open market selling price of more than €50k new.

Also, it's not just EVs which are entitled to 7% VRT - any combustion engined vehicle with CO2 below 50 g/km will get 7% VRT - so that's pretty much every plug in hybrid you can think of. Even the ones that are over 50 g/km are still well under the next threshold of 80 g/km, so they will be eligible for 9% VRT.

So maybe for very relatively cheap EVs there is a price advantage over a plug in hybrid, but for more expensive cars a PHEV is going to be cheaper to buy - not to mention infinitely more convenient to use.

jhegarty · 14-10-2020 1:07am

boardzz wrote: »

Looks like the VRT has halved for full Electric vehicles. 14% down to 7%.
The cheapest Model 3 should now be 1400 less

Model 3 SR+ is going up in price , not down.

galwaytt · 14-10-2020 9:23am

Leonard Hofstadter wrote: »

The grant is gone for hybrids and plug-ins at the end of the year, there is still the €5k relief for EVs but only those with a purchase price up to €40k, it gets tapered after that so there is nothing at all if the car has an open market selling price of more than €50k new.

that's a serious slap to Toyota and a major misjudgement on the whole Hybrid/EV/BEV issue. Hybrid is a very good choice for a lot of people.

sumo12 · 14-10-2020 1:18pm

galwaytt wrote: »

that's a serious slap to Toyota and a major misjudgement on the whole Hybrid/EV/BEV issue. Hybrid is a very good choice for a lot of people.

The grant is gone but that will be counteracted by the VRT going down for Hybrids, based on emissions. Corolla Hybrid is going down in price

Black_Knight · 14-10-2020 2:26pm

Leonard Hofstadter wrote: »

The grant is gone for hybrids and plug-ins at the end of the year, there is still the €5k relief for EVs but only those with a purchase price up to €40k, it gets tapered after that so there is nothing at all if the car has an open market selling price of more than €50k new.

Also, it's not just EVs which are entitled to 7% VRT - any combustion engined vehicle with CO2 below 50 g/km will get 7% VRT - so that's pretty much every plug in hybrid you can think of. Even the ones that are over 50 g/km are still well under the next threshold of 80 g/km, so they will be eligible for 9% VRT.

So maybe for very relatively cheap EVs there is a price advantage over a plug in hybrid, but for more expensive cars a PHEV is going to be cheaper to buy - not to mention infinitely more convenient to use.

I thought the VRT grant was based on the price before any grants applied. ID4 might be ~42k on the road after all the current grants (10k) but that's a 52k car. Would lead me to believe there's no VRT grant anymore.

80sDiesel · 14-10-2020 3:21pm

Black_Knight wrote: »

I thought the VRT grant was based on the price before any grants applied. ID4 might be ~42k on the road after all the current grants (10k) but that's a 52k car. Would lead me to believe there's no VRT grant anymore.

True. The VRT will be tapered though.

KCross · 14-10-2020 3:25pm

80sDiesel wrote: »

True. The VRT will be tapered though.

I dont think so, not based on the wording they used anyway.

What they have said is that a car with an OMSP of €50k+ gets zero VRT relief.

The tapering only happens for cars that are between €40k-€50k OMSP (i.e. before grant)

All BEV's get the reduced rate though of 7% (instead of 14% today).

And presumably the SEAI grant of €5k is continuing for all BEV's regardless of OMSP.

80sDiesel · 14-10-2020 3:28pm

Yes you are right.

So would that put the id4 at ~47 on the road? 5k more expensive?

MJohnston · 14-10-2020 3:31pm

80sDiesel wrote: »

True. The VRT will be tapered though.

It'll be tapered from €5k at €40k to zero at €50k — so a €52k car will have zero VRT relief.

KCross · 14-10-2020 3:45pm

80sDiesel wrote: »

Yes you are right.

So would that put the id4 at ~47 on the road? 5k more expensive?

It will go up a little I'd say.

I think the base ID.4 1st is about €54k OMSP and hence €44k to the customer after grants.

If you now remove the €5k VRT relief and reduce the VRT from 14% to 7% you get an after grant price of ~€45,500 so ~€1500 increase.

Having said that, there are a few more moving parts also that are hard to predict like the VAT going back up to 23% on 1 Mar 2021 and VW will probably also adjust prices with VAT and VRT changing, so who knows where the dust will settle.

MJohnston · 14-10-2020 3:48pm

I don't think the base ID.4 OMSP is €54k because the OMSP is supposed to be the value of the car before VRT and VAT.

KCross · 14-10-2020 4:03pm

MJohnston wrote: »

I don't think the base ID.4 OMSP is €54k because the OMSP is supposed to be the value of the car before VRT and VAT.

Thats news to me.

OMSP is the market sell price which would include VAT and VRT. The fact that the govt gives VRT relief and a grant wouldnt change the OMSP as those reliefs/grants can be taken away at any time... at least thats what I thought anyway.

MJohnston · 14-10-2020 4:08pm

KCross wrote: »

Thats news to me.

OMSP is the market sell price which would include VAT and VRT. The fact that the govt gives VRT relief and a grant wouldnt change the OMSP... at least thats what I thought anyway.

OMSP is used to calculate the VRT for any given vehicle so I don't think it could include VRT. I think I was wrong about VAT though, I think that is included.

Either way, the OMSP of the ID.4 can't be €54k because then it would cost more than that after VRT!

Black_Knight · 14-10-2020 4:11pm

MJohnston wrote: »

I don't think the base ID.4 OMSP is €54k because the OMSP is supposed to be the value of the car before VRT and VAT.

Ah yes. True. So God knows how it's actually calculated.

So if €54k is OMSP including VRT @ 14% + VAT @ 21% how does one calculate the OMSP? Is the VAT calculated against the OMSP or the OMSP + VRT?
Similar question for VRT, is that calculated against the OMSP or OMSP + VAT?

Potentially we're talking about an OMSP of €40k, meaning €8400 VAT, and then (calculating VRT off of the OMSP price) €2800 in VRT @ 7%. So pre grants that €51200. Minus the 5k grant and then being 40k OMSP the full VRT should be waived?? Sounds wrong. If that was the case it'd be €43800 now.

Black_Knight · 14-10-2020 4:12pm

Ah, Google is handy.

VRT = OMSP*VRT rate
VAT= (List Price – (Discounts + VRT))

KCross · 14-10-2020 4:13pm

MJohnston wrote: »

OMSP is used to calculate the VRT for any given vehicle so I don't think it could include VRT. I think I was wrong about VAT though, I think that is included.

Either way, the OMSP of the ID.4 can't be €54k because then it would cost more than that after VRT!

I dont understand the logic. OMSP is the sell price which by definition would include all taxes?

OMSP is used in the VRT calculator alright to calculate VRT but thats for importing cars so it uses OMSP as a reference point. Is that what you are referring to?

I'm not saying Im right or wrong but thats how I understood it.

Put another way.... if a €44k ID.4 had its €5k VRT relief and €5k grant removed by the government what would the price of the car be at the forecourt..... surely €54k?

Not sure how reliable this website is but they define it as
https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/moving_to_ireland/coming_to_live_in_ireland/importing_car_into_ireland.html
"In the case of cars and small vans, the amount of VRT payable is based on a percentage of the recommended retail price, which includes all taxes. This price is known as the Open Market Selling Price (OMSP)."

MJohnston · 14-10-2020 4:13pm

Black_Knight wrote: »

Ah yes. True. So God knows how it's actually calculated.

So if €54k is OMSP including VRT @ 14% + VAT @ 21% how does one calculate the OMSP? Is the VAT calculated against the OMSP or the OMSP + VRT?
Similar question for VRT, is that calculated against the OMSP or OMSP + VAT?

Potentially we're talking about an OMSP of €40k, meaning €8400 VAT, and then (calculating VRT off of the OMSP price) €2800 in VRT @ 7%. So pre grants that €51200. Minus the 5k grant and then being 40k OMSP the full VRT should be waived?? Sounds wrong. If that was the case it'd be €43800 now.

No I was definitely wrong about VAT — OMSP includes any taxes charged before the vehicle arrives in the state, so VAT.

MJohnston · 14-10-2020 4:14pm

KCross wrote: »

I dont understand the logic. OMSP is the sell price which by definition would include all taxes?

OMSP is used in the VRT calculator alright to calculate VRT but thats for importing cars so it uses OMSP as a reference point. Is that what you are referring to?

I'm not saying Im right or wrong but thats how I understood it.

Put another way.... if a €44k ID.4 had its €5k VRT relief and €5k grant removed by the government what would the price of the car be at the forecourt..... surely €54k?

The RRP of the ID.4 is €54k, yes.

However the OMSP does not equal the RRP.

The RRP is essentially 114% of the OMSP.

80sDiesel · 14-10-2020 4:24pm

MJohnston wrote: »

The RRP of the ID.4 is €54k, yes.

However the OMSP does not equal the RRP.

The RRP is essentially 114% of the OMSP.

Edit. Incorrect calcs

KCross · 14-10-2020 4:41pm

MJohnston wrote: »

The RRP of the ID.4 is €54k, yes.

However the OMSP does not equal the RRP.

The RRP is essentially 114% of the OMSP.

I guess thats why they call it the "Original" Market Sell price before the government got their hands on it with VRT!

Everydays a school day.

80sDiesel wrote: »

That’s what I think. Which would give you 45650 OMSP.

VRT then will be guessing ~10.5% (tapering of the 7%) giving you 50444. Less SEAI ~ 45440

Even with my wrong calcs I wasnt too far out... about €1500 more expensive.... which doesnt make much sense for a government encouraging people to EV's but hey ho.

EDIT
Just to run those numers again, is this right...

Assuming a €54k RRP today (any BEV).
Thats €47368 OMSP
Add on 7% VRT from Jan 2021 gives €50684
Since its <€50k OMSP it will get some VRT relief... assuming its the sliding 1% for every €100 it would get 26% of €5000 in relief so €1300 VRT relief?

So, that would make it €50684-€1300(VRT relief)-€5k(Grant)=€44384

hmm... back to €44k, so no increase.... is that correct?

slave1 · 14-10-2020 4:58pm

Clear as mud

80sDiesel · 14-10-2020 5:08pm

Yes kcross I think you are right.

pdpmur · 14-10-2020 6:20pm

KCross wrote: »

I guess thats why they call it the "Original" Market Sell price before the government got their hands on it with VRT!

Pedants' corner alert!
Isn't it Open Market Selling Price? At least that's what Revenue calls it.
And the real kicker is that OMSP is a valuation that's somewhat arbitrarily decided by Revenue for each and every car, so there's no certainty that Revenue will adjust the OMSP to exactly match the change in VRT rates (although of course it would be the logical thing to do).

Leonard Hofstadter · 15-10-2020 12:53am

sumo12 wrote: »

The grant is gone but that will be counteracted by the VRT going down for Hybrids, based on emissions. Corolla Hybrid is going down in price

It's typical Toyota misleading advertising.

They are correct that the VRT rate is going down - despite the increase in CO2 emissions by 20 odd g/km in the conversion from NEDC to WLTP, the VRT rate is going down from its current 14% to 10%, so that coupled with the VAT reduction means that car is the €1,000 or whatever Toyota claims is cheaper.

However, as is usual with Toyota (like the completely inaccurate claim that hybrids can spend over 50% of the time in electric mode on average, it's either 50% on average, or over 50% of the time in certain scenarios, not both), there is a catch - and that is that the current prices don't include the grant they all get.

So they're claiming the cars are gonna be €1,000 cheaper, when in fact they're going to be €500 dearer from 1 January because there's no €1,500 VRT subsidy any more.

sk8board · 15-10-2020 7:35am

KCross wrote: »

I guess thats why they call it the "Original" Market Sell price before the government got their hands on it with VRT!

Everydays a school day.

Even with my wrong calcs I wasnt too far out... about €1500 more expensive.... which doesnt make much sense for a government encouraging people to EV's but hey ho.

EDIT
Just to run those numers again, is this right...

Assuming a €54k RRP today (any BEV).
Thats €47368 OMSP
Add on 7% VRT from Jan 2021 gives €50684
Since its <€50k OMSP it will get some VRT relief... assuming its the sliding 1% for every €100 it would get 26% of €5000 in relief so €1300 VRT relief?

So, that would make it €50684-€1300(VRT relief)-€5k(Grant)=€44384

hmm... back to €44k, so no increase.... is that correct?

..... and right into the price of the massively popular r-line Tiguan, which VW sold an absolute tonne of on 0% pcp.
I wonder how they’ll play both against each other - they may make a price change to the id.4 in light of the budget, they have plenty time.

TitianGerm · 15-10-2020 10:52am

sk8board wrote: »

..... and right into the price of the massively popular r-line Tiguan, which VW sold an absolute tonne of on 0% pcp.
I wonder how they’ll play both against each other - they may make a price change to the id.4 in light of the budget, they have plenty time.

My dad has one of those 0% R Line Tiguan that's due a change in February and since I ordered the ID3 he keeps talking about the ID4.

After the budget I think I'm right in saying the Tiguan (2L Diesel DSG) is going up about €2,000 so the ID4 is looking to be cheaper.

carsfan2 · 15-10-2020 11:26am

I wouldn’t be surprised if VW and a few other manufacturers reprice their cars pre taxes to keep the status quo to some extent.

New price for VW ID4?

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