New price for VW ID4?

snowdaze

I can't figure out if the price has come down in the budget or not?

Anyone know?

boardzz

Looks like the VRT has halved for full Electric vehicles. 14% down to 7%.
The cheapest Model 3 should now be 1400 less

snowdaze

boardzz wrote: »

Looks like the VRT has halved for full Electric vehicles. 14% down to 7%.
The cheapest Model 3 should now be 1400 less

great news - thanks for that!

Black_Knight

But the 5k grant is being tapered off for electric vehicles. Up to a price of 40k I think. So less vrt to pay, but possibly no 5k grant.

Leonard Hofstadter

Black_Knight wrote: »

But the 5k grant is being tapered off for electric vehicles. Up to a price of 40k I think. So less vrt to pay, but possibly no 5k grant.

The grant is gone for hybrids and plug-ins at the end of the year, there is still the €5k relief for EVs but only those with a purchase price up to €40k, it gets tapered after that so there is nothing at all if the car has an open market selling price of more than €50k new.

Also, it's not just EVs which are entitled to 7% VRT - any combustion engined vehicle with CO2 below 50 g/km will get 7% VRT - so that's pretty much every plug in hybrid you can think of. Even the ones that are over 50 g/km are still well under the next threshold of 80 g/km, so they will be eligible for 9% VRT.

So maybe for very relatively cheap EVs there is a price advantage over a plug in hybrid, but for more expensive cars a PHEV is going to be cheaper to buy - not to mention infinitely more convenient to use.

jhegarty

boardzz wrote: »

Looks like the VRT has halved for full Electric vehicles. 14% down to 7%.
The cheapest Model 3 should now be 1400 less

Model 3 SR+ is going up in price , not down.

galwaytt

Leonard Hofstadter wrote: »

The grant is gone for hybrids and plug-ins at the end of the year, there is still the €5k relief for EVs but only those with a purchase price up to €40k, it gets tapered after that so there is nothing at all if the car has an open market selling price of more than €50k new.

that's a serious slap to Toyota and a major misjudgement on the whole Hybrid/EV/BEV issue. Hybrid is a very good choice for a lot of people.

sumo12

galwaytt wrote: »

that's a serious slap to Toyota and a major misjudgement on the whole Hybrid/EV/BEV issue. Hybrid is a very good choice for a lot of people.

The grant is gone but that will be counteracted by the VRT going down for Hybrids, based on emissions. Corolla Hybrid is going down in price

Black_Knight

Leonard Hofstadter wrote: »

The grant is gone for hybrids and plug-ins at the end of the year, there is still the €5k relief for EVs but only those with a purchase price up to €40k, it gets tapered after that so there is nothing at all if the car has an open market selling price of more than €50k new.

Also, it's not just EVs which are entitled to 7% VRT - any combustion engined vehicle with CO2 below 50 g/km will get 7% VRT - so that's pretty much every plug in hybrid you can think of. Even the ones that are over 50 g/km are still well under the next threshold of 80 g/km, so they will be eligible for 9% VRT.

So maybe for very relatively cheap EVs there is a price advantage over a plug in hybrid, but for more expensive cars a PHEV is going to be cheaper to buy - not to mention infinitely more convenient to use.

I thought the VRT grant was based on the price before any grants applied. ID4 might be ~42k on the road after all the current grants (10k) but that's a 52k car. Would lead me to believe there's no VRT grant anymore.

80sDiesel

Black_Knight wrote: »

I thought the VRT grant was based on the price before any grants applied. ID4 might be ~42k on the road after all the current grants (10k) but that's a 52k car. Would lead me to believe there's no VRT grant anymore.

True. The VRT will be tapered though.

KCross

80sDiesel wrote: »

True. The VRT will be tapered though.

I dont think so, not based on the wording they used anyway.

What they have said is that a car with an OMSP of €50k+ gets zero VRT relief.

The tapering only happens for cars that are between €40k-€50k OMSP (i.e. before grant)

All BEV's get the reduced rate though of 7% (instead of 14% today).

And presumably the SEAI grant of €5k is continuing for all BEV's regardless of OMSP.

80sDiesel

Yes you are right.

So would that put the id4 at ~47 on the road? 5k more expensive?

MJohnston

80sDiesel wrote: »

True. The VRT will be tapered though.

It'll be tapered from €5k at €40k to zero at €50k — so a €52k car will have zero VRT relief.

KCross

80sDiesel wrote: »

Yes you are right.

So would that put the id4 at ~47 on the road? 5k more expensive?

It will go up a little I'd say.

I think the base ID.4 1st is about €54k OMSP and hence €44k to the customer after grants.

If you now remove the €5k VRT relief and reduce the VRT from 14% to 7% you get an after grant price of ~€45,500 so ~€1500 increase.


Having said that, there are a few more moving parts also that are hard to predict like the VAT going back up to 23% on 1 Mar 2021 and VW will probably also adjust prices with VAT and VRT changing, so who knows where the dust will settle.

MJohnston

I don't think the base ID.4 OMSP is €54k because the OMSP is supposed to be the value of the car before VRT and VAT.

KCross

MJohnston wrote: »

I don't think the base ID.4 OMSP is €54k because the OMSP is supposed to be the value of the car before VRT and VAT.

Thats news to me.

OMSP is the market sell price which would include VAT and VRT. The fact that the govt gives VRT relief and a grant wouldnt change the OMSP as those reliefs/grants can be taken away at any time... at least thats what I thought anyway.

MJohnston

KCross wrote: »

Thats news to me.

OMSP is the market sell price which would include VAT and VRT. The fact that the govt gives VRT relief and a grant wouldnt change the OMSP... at least thats what I thought anyway.

OMSP is used to calculate the VRT for any given vehicle so I don't think it could include VRT. I think I was wrong about VAT though, I think that is included.

Either way, the OMSP of the ID.4 can't be €54k because then it would cost more than that after VRT!

Black_Knight

MJohnston wrote: »

I don't think the base ID.4 OMSP is €54k because the OMSP is supposed to be the value of the car before VRT and VAT.

Ah yes. True. So God knows how it's actually calculated.

So if €54k is OMSP including VRT @ 14% + VAT @ 21% how does one calculate the OMSP? Is the VAT calculated against the OMSP or the OMSP + VRT?
Similar question for VRT, is that calculated against the OMSP or OMSP + VAT?

Potentially we're talking about an OMSP of €40k, meaning €8400 VAT, and then (calculating VRT off of the OMSP price) €2800 in VRT @ 7%. So pre grants that €51200. Minus the 5k grant and then being 40k OMSP the full VRT should be waived?? Sounds wrong. If that was the case it'd be €43800 now.

Black_Knight

Ah, Google is handy.

VRT = OMSP*VRT rate
VAT= (List Price – (Discounts + VRT))

KCross

MJohnston wrote: »

OMSP is used to calculate the VRT for any given vehicle so I don't think it could include VRT. I think I was wrong about VAT though, I think that is included.

Either way, the OMSP of the ID.4 can't be €54k because then it would cost more than that after VRT!

I dont understand the logic. OMSP is the sell price which by definition would include all taxes?

OMSP is used in the VRT calculator alright to calculate VRT but thats for importing cars so it uses OMSP as a reference point. Is that what you are referring to?

I'm not saying Im right or wrong but thats how I understood it.

Put another way.... if a €44k ID.4 had its €5k VRT relief and €5k grant removed by the government what would the price of the car be at the forecourt..... surely €54k?

Not sure how reliable this website is but they define it as
https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/moving_to_ireland/coming_to_live_in_ireland/importing_car_into_ireland.html
"In the case of cars and small vans, the amount of VRT payable is based on a percentage of the recommended retail price, which includes all taxes. This price is known as the Open Market Selling Price (OMSP)."

MJohnston

Black_Knight wrote: »

Ah yes. True. So God knows how it's actually calculated.

So if €54k is OMSP including VRT @ 14% + VAT @ 21% how does one calculate the OMSP? Is the VAT calculated against the OMSP or the OMSP + VRT?
Similar question for VRT, is that calculated against the OMSP or OMSP + VAT?

Potentially we're talking about an OMSP of €40k, meaning €8400 VAT, and then (calculating VRT off of the OMSP price) €2800 in VRT @ 7%. So pre grants that €51200. Minus the 5k grant and then being 40k OMSP the full VRT should be waived?? Sounds wrong. If that was the case it'd be €43800 now.

No I was definitely wrong about VAT — OMSP includes any taxes charged before the vehicle arrives in the state, so VAT.

MJohnston

KCross wrote: »

I dont understand the logic. OMSP is the sell price which by definition would include all taxes?

OMSP is used in the VRT calculator alright to calculate VRT but thats for importing cars so it uses OMSP as a reference point. Is that what you are referring to?

I'm not saying Im right or wrong but thats how I understood it.

Put another way.... if a €44k ID.4 had its €5k VRT relief and €5k grant removed by the government what would the price of the car be at the forecourt..... surely €54k?

The RRP of the ID.4 is €54k, yes.

However the OMSP does not equal the RRP.

The RRP is essentially 114% of the OMSP.

80sDiesel

MJohnston wrote: »

The RRP of the ID.4 is €54k, yes.

However the OMSP does not equal the RRP.

The RRP is essentially 114% of the OMSP.

Edit. Incorrect calcs

KCross

MJohnston wrote: »

The RRP of the ID.4 is €54k, yes.

However the OMSP does not equal the RRP.

The RRP is essentially 114% of the OMSP.

I guess thats why they call it the "Original" Market Sell price before the government got their hands on it with VRT!

Everydays a school day.

80sDiesel wrote: »

That’s what I think. Which would give you 45650 OMSP.

VRT then will be guessing ~10.5% (tapering of the 7%) giving you 50444. Less SEAI ~ 45440

Even with my wrong calcs I wasnt too far out... about €1500 more expensive.... which doesnt make much sense for a government encouraging people to EV's but hey ho.

EDIT
Just to run those numers again, is this right...

Assuming a €54k RRP today (any BEV).
Thats €47368 OMSP
Add on 7% VRT from Jan 2021 gives €50684
Since its <€50k OMSP it will get some VRT relief... assuming its the sliding 1% for every €100 it would get 26% of €5000 in relief so €1300 VRT relief?

So, that would make it €50684-€1300(VRT relief)-€5k(Grant)=€44384

hmm... back to €44k, so no increase.... is that correct?

slave1

Clear as mud

80sDiesel

Yes kcross I think you are right.

pdpmur

KCross wrote: »

I guess thats why they call it the "Original" Market Sell price before the government got their hands on it with VRT!

Pedants' corner alert!
Isn't it Open Market Selling Price? At least that's what Revenue calls it.
And the real kicker is that OMSP is a valuation that's somewhat arbitrarily decided by Revenue for each and every car, so there's no certainty that Revenue will adjust the OMSP to exactly match the change in VRT rates (although of course it would be the logical thing to do).

Leonard Hofstadter

sumo12 wrote: »

The grant is gone but that will be counteracted by the VRT going down for Hybrids, based on emissions. Corolla Hybrid is going down in price

It's typical Toyota misleading advertising.

They are correct that the VRT rate is going down - despite the increase in CO2 emissions by 20 odd g/km in the conversion from NEDC to WLTP, the VRT rate is going down from its current 14% to 10%, so that coupled with the VAT reduction means that car is the €1,000 or whatever Toyota claims is cheaper.

However, as is usual with Toyota (like the completely inaccurate claim that hybrids can spend over 50% of the time in electric mode on average, it's either 50% on average, or over 50% of the time in certain scenarios, not both), there is a catch - and that is that the current prices don't include the grant they all get.

So they're claiming the cars are gonna be €1,000 cheaper, when in fact they're going to be €500 dearer from 1 January because there's no €1,500 VRT subsidy any more.

sk8board

KCross wrote: »

I guess thats why they call it the "Original" Market Sell price before the government got their hands on it with VRT!

Everydays a school day.





Even with my wrong calcs I wasnt too far out... about €1500 more expensive.... which doesnt make much sense for a government encouraging people to EV's but hey ho.

EDIT
Just to run those numers again, is this right...

Assuming a €54k RRP today (any BEV).
Thats €47368 OMSP
Add on 7% VRT from Jan 2021 gives €50684
Since its <€50k OMSP it will get some VRT relief... assuming its the sliding 1% for every €100 it would get 26% of €5000 in relief so €1300 VRT relief?

So, that would make it €50684-€1300(VRT relief)-€5k(Grant)=€44384

hmm... back to €44k, so no increase.... is that correct?

..... and right into the price of the massively popular r-line Tiguan, which VW sold an absolute tonne of on 0% pcp.
I wonder how they’ll play both against each other - they may make a price change to the id.4 in light of the budget, they have plenty time.

TitianGerm

sk8board wrote: »

..... and right into the price of the massively popular r-line Tiguan, which VW sold an absolute tonne of on 0% pcp.
I wonder how they’ll play both against each other - they may make a price change to the id.4 in light of the budget, they have plenty time.

My dad has one of those 0% R Line Tiguan that's due a change in February and since I ordered the ID3 he keeps talking about the ID4.

After the budget I think I'm right in saying the Tiguan (2L Diesel DSG) is going up about €2,000 so the ID4 is looking to be cheaper.

carsfan2

I wouldn’t be surprised if VW and a few other manufacturers reprice their cars pre taxes to keep the status quo to some extent.

shanec1928

carsfan2 wrote: »

I wouldn’t be surprised if VW and a few other manufacturers reprice their cars pre taxes to keep the status quo to some extent.

they havent for seat anyways new ateca is up several thousand depending on the model.

traco

My head hurts - I'll wait for the official price list as they will have to work it out at some stage

snowdaze

Does anyone know at one week later there is a new price list for ID3 and ID4 cars yet?

Black_Knight

I'd only guess somewhat based off of this:
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=114945857&postcount=145

Silent Running

The ID.3 Tour I ordered yesterday has come down €1,300 ish since the budget.

I haven't worked out why, just as I haven't worked out how the 77kWh Tour is €1,100 cheaper that the 58kWh Max. The fact that it's only a 4 seater is the only reason I can see. The only other spec change is lack of a glass roof, which I'm happy enough with.

Irishjg

Silent Running wrote: »

The ID.3 Tour I ordered yesterday has come down €1,300 ish since the budget.

I haven't worked out why, just as I haven't worked out how the 77kWh Tour is €1,100 cheaper that the 58kWh Max. The fact that it's only a 4 seater is the only reason I can see. The only other spec change is lack of a glass roof, which I'm happy enough with.

Silent I'm torn between the 77 Tour and the 1st edition ID4 and still can't make up my mind. Please can you advise what was the total price bottom line on your Tour including delivery charges and paint option. Also is the price you have post budget.

Silent Running

Irishjg wrote: »

Silent I'm torn between the 77 Tour and the 1st edition ID4 and still can't make up my mind. Please can you advise what was the total price bottom line on your Tour including delivery charges and paint option. Also is the price you have post budget.

I paid €41k on the road. The brochure price was €43,350 on the road. That was at 1/10/20.

The ID.4 is a good bit bigger and probably better if you can live with a bigger car. My SO likes smaller cars and I don't mind either way, so we went with the ID.3.

Irishjg

Silent Running wrote: »

I paid €41k on the road. The brochure price was €43,350 on the road. That was at 1/10/20.

The ID.4 is a good bit bigger and probably better if you can live with a bigger car. My SO likes smaller cars and I don't mind either way, so we went with the ID.3.

Cheers Silent. The extra kit in the "tour" is a major plus and I'm sure overall range will be better VS the ID4 too. I think the price you are paying compared to the 58 "first plus" is amazing considering the larger battery and extra kit you are getting. What is pulling me to the ID4 ? I prefer the looks, extra available space and interior finish for close to the same price. The extra kit in the "tour" drags me back again though. Arghhh IDK !!!

n.d.os

I was just on Volkswagen.ie. I can't believe they are now charging extra for a 204hp ID4 and calling it a Pro Performance. I paid 57k for my ID4 Business in early 2022. The exact same model spec for spec is now 62k. Absolute madness. I know availability is still a problem for car manufacturers but prices are getting out of hand.

the_amazing_raisin

It's annoying, but if people keep paying those prices then that's what they'll sell for

Carmakers aren't going to drop prices because their customers are grumbling, they'll only start competing when supply starts outstripping demand, which probably won't be in the next 2-3 years

staples7

Ya I bought earlier in the year, I thought the 204hp was basic spec then? My car has gone from 49k to 54kish (Only option on it was the black roof). Hoping to sell as exactly 1 year old.

the_amazing_raisin

The problem with selling now is that you also need to buy a car at current inflated prices

So while it's nice not to suffer much depreciation, if any, that also cuts both ways when you're buying

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119848722#Comment_119848722

How does that work. Below 60k gets a grant.

above 60k doesn’t.

so if you paid 57k you should have got a grant

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119848722#Comment_119848722

Pro is the battery size, Performance is the power of the motor. Calling it an ID.4 Pro Performance just means it's an ID.4 with a 150kW motor and a 77kWh battery. The absolute base model is the ID.4 Pure with a 109kW motor and 52kWh battery. I'm not sure if that's been made available in any market yet.

The interior spec packages then vary on top of the model which is where your Business spec comes in.

n.d.os

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119849754#Comment_119849754

I may be misunderstanding you here but the Business model now has 154hp and you have to pay more for 204hp. Less than a year ago the 154hp was only on the base model ID4 Life.

On the topic of people paying more money. I get it. Evs are in demand but dealerships are struggling at the moment. Should it not be fair game? Our second car is three years old and due to be changed in January. I'd be bonkers to buy a new car. The same car is 6 grand more than it was new in 2020. Are others not thinking the same?

the_amazing_raisin

The ID.4 Pure was released here under the City trim. There were a few sold but it isn't available to order at the moment

n.d.os

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119849659#Comment_119849659

I'm guessing if I bought a like-for-like ID4 business now I'd no longer get the grant and be pushed into a Life Model.

handpref

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119850161#Comment_119850161

We nearly got caught with this, the 77kw comes with a lower power option of 174hp and 204hp, the pure or 52kw version of the id4 that a few here picked up for nice money is 154hp (possibly slightly less). It’s all been made very confusing for prospective buyers, even harder for those moving from ice cars.

The life versions are the ones that make the grant with 174 and 204 offerings , the business does not make the grant anymore, we were told 55k was the cut off. It’s very confusing.

Having had a 174 life dx loaner I was disappointed, lacked power and no reversing camera or front camera, no matrix headlights and front light bar, no fancy drl just a led light across the top of the headlights, halogen front indicators bulbs ..no travel assist ..

Base level spec vw or a cheaper model y ..

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119850161#Comment_119850161

My original plan with the ID.4 was to keep it for 3 years on the PCP and then trade up to either a GTX or an ID.Buzz

Because it'd be 2024 and EVs would be cheaper by then 😏

I'm about 18 months into that plan and I'm starting to think my 1st Max is looking like pretty good value for money and I might just hang on to it instead

Or I sell it and buy a second hand Kia EV6, we'll see how prices are by then

My wife's Leaf is probably going to need replacing soon, nothing wrong with it, she just complains about the range whenever she's going on a road trip

Not looking forward to seeing the price tag on whatever car she goes for

staples7

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119850311#Comment_119850311

Cheaper model y, I pulled the plug last night and ordered the y. Id4 getting the road in feb/march