Is the possibility of a God not a scary thought...?

antiskeptic · 06-10-2020 6:08pm

looksee wrote: »

I cannot recall any circumstance where I might have had such inclinations. Oh granted, I am not perfect, but evil? No, not at all. And of all the people I have ever known personally there was maybe one that was seriously disturbed, a few that were selfish and/or obnoxious. But evil, no.

But if the definition of evil included selfishness? Take Jesus equating lusting with adultery..

Not perfect would then mean evil. Not evil to the greatest extent but evil because the same heart that underlies selfishness at lesser level is cut from the same piece of wood that operates at greater levels.

Selfish: me at another's expense. Whether it's the last Rolo you aren't really entitled to or killing your unborn because it cramps your lifestyle

And the business about confession, little children are taught to search their minds for things to confess, small, childish things that they are made to feel guilty for, and you are comparing it to evil?

Little kids, being infected with sin out that sin from almost the get go. Sure, its starts small but from acorns, great trees. If you teach them not to throw their sweet wrappers on the ground they might avoid chucking bags of rubbish at the side of the motorway later on.

There only childish thing about children sinning is the low level, embryonic nature of it. But kids grow and on their sin they shall build.

They don't have to be made feel guilty. Better it be explained to them than guilt. But it need be called out.

SouthWesterly · 06-10-2020 6:46pm

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

None of this is compatible with the concept of a loving god.

He provided a means of restoration and redemption.

Would you prefer to have a world without consequences?

SouthWesterly · 06-10-2020 6:49pm

auspicious wrote: »

I've had the thought that 'God' was meticulously planning a perfect creation but by accident, with its below, knocked over a beaker and our universe was born and it thought " To hell with it I'll just see what happens.".

You should really learn to keep your thoughts to yourself

storker · 06-10-2020 7:07pm

SouthWesterly wrote: »

He provided a means of restoration and redemption.

Would you prefer to have a world without consequences?

The Unacceptable Consequence Fallacy. "If A is true then B is also true. B is unacceptable to me therefore A cannot be true."

Whether someone is or isn't comfortable with the idea of a consequence-free world has no bearing on the existence or non-existence of God.

SouthWesterly · 06-10-2020 10:25pm

storker wrote: »

The Unacceptable Consequence Fallacy. "If A is true then B is also true. B is unacceptable to me therefore A cannot be true."

Whether someone is or isn't comfortable with the idea of a consequence-free world has no bearing on the existence or non-existence of God.

HD made a statement. I asked a question. Whether you're comfortable or not is irrelevant. Suggest you get a soft cushion!

smacl · 07-10-2020 8:04am

SouthWesterly wrote: »

You should really learn to keep your thoughts to yourself

SouthWesterly wrote: »

HD made a statement. I asked a question. Whether you're comfortable or not is irrelevant. Suggest you get a soft cushion!

Mod warning: Please play the ball and not the man when you disagree with other posters. Please do not discuss this in thread but feel free to do so in the feedback thread or via PM. Thanks for your attention.

Leroy42 · 07-10-2020 8:13am

Does God carry this judgmental trait into heaven?

Free will must exist in heaven, otherwise as others have pointed out it is place of no consequence. And Satan had the ability to turn away from God so free will must exist in heaven.

If it does, then isn't heaven no different that where we are now?

So we are forced to go through all this pain and suffering on Earth, just to face it all again for eternity?

Timberrrrrrrr · 07-10-2020 8:26am

Leroy42 wrote: »

Does God carry this judgmental trait into heaven?

Free will must exist in heaven, otherwise as others have pointed out it is place of no consequence. And Satan had the ability to turn away from God so free will must exist in heaven.

If it does, then isn't heaven no different that where we are now?

So we are forced to go through all this pain and suffering on Earth, just to face it all again for eternity?

But without our loved ones.

smacl · 07-10-2020 10:48am

Leroy42 wrote: »

Does God carry this judgmental trait into heaven?

Free will must exist in heaven, otherwise as others have pointed out it is place of no consequence. And Satan had the ability to turn away from God so free will must exist in heaven.

If it does, then isn't heaven no different that where we are now?

So we are forced to go through all this pain and suffering on Earth, just to face it all again for eternity?

One would assume all the root causes of pain and suffering are absent, both man-made and external. Free will in and of itself does not cause us to behave badly towards others.

Leroy42 · 07-10-2020 11:24am

smacl wrote: »

One would assume all the root causes of pain and suffering are absent, both man-made and external. Free will in and of itself does not cause us to behave badly towards others.

True, but one as the reasons for the existence of evil is that it is an outcome of free will, that whilst of course, people can decide, either way, they must be allowed that choice.

So does free will exist in heaven? It must, therefore evil must exist given the evidence we have of how people will sometimes choose evil. And again Satan shows that even in heaven free will can lead to evil.

So how can this heaven be actually any different to what we currently have? It would seem that it cannot, without the removal of free will.

So are given free will to prove out love an devotion to God, and then it is removed and we no longer have the very thing that god insists if at the very core of his values for us.

So why not simply remove free will here, and thus remove even the threat of evil?

How can all sources of pain be removed in heaven without impacting on our free will? And if it can be in heaven, why not do the same on Earth.

It goes back to the question of why god allows evil to continue?

smacl · 07-10-2020 11:32am

Leroy42 wrote: »

True, but one as the reasons for the existence of evil is that it is an outcome of free will, that whilst of course, people can decide, either way, they must be allowed that choice.

So does free will exist in heaven? It must, therefore evil must exist given the evidence we have of how people will sometimes choose evil. And again Satan shows that even in heaven free will can lead to evil.

So how can this heaven be actually any different to what we currently have? It would seem that it cannot, without the removal of free will.

So are given free will to prove out love an devotion to God, and then it is removed and we no longer have the very thing that god insists if at the very core of his values for us.

So why not simply remove free will here, and thus remove even the threat of evil?

How can all sources of pain be removed in heaven without impacting on our free will? And if it can be in heaven, why not do the same on Earth.

It goes back to the question of why god allows evil to continue?

Perhaps someone more knowledgeable on this than myself is better placed to answer, but I would have thought that those who enter heaven have done so through choosing to be virtuous. On entering heaving there is no reason to assume they would choose to behave differently. Perhaps, and this is just speculation, the possibility of evil occurring in heaven has always existed, taking Satan as a precedent. Evil doesn't generally occur as there are no evil doers present. Thus free will is no precluded.

SouthWesterly · 07-10-2020 4:03pm

Leroy42 wrote: »

True, but one as the reasons for the existence of evil is that it is an outcome of free will, that whilst of course, people can decide, either way, they must be allowed that choice.

So does free will exist in heaven? It must, therefore evil must exist given the evidence we have of how people will sometimes choose evil. And again Satan shows that even in heaven free will can lead to evil.

So how can this heaven be actually any different to what we currently have? It would seem that it cannot, without the removal of free will.

So are given free will to prove out love an devotion to God, and then it is removed and we no longer have the very thing that god insists if at the very core of his values for us.

So why not simply remove free will here, and thus remove even the threat of evil?

How can all sources of pain be removed in heaven without impacting on our free will? And if it can be in heaven, why not do the same on Earth.

It goes back to the question of why god allows evil to continue?

The reason for the existence of evil is that that Satan exits whose sole intent is to rebel against God and destroy his creation.

By sin entering in, all creation is under his control. Adam sold us all out. If you want an explanation, just read Romans.

Leroy42 · 07-10-2020 4:15pm

SouthWesterly wrote: »

The reason for the existence of evil is that that Satan exits whose sole intent is to rebel against God and destroy his creation.

By sin entering in, all creation is under his control. Adam sold us all out. If you want an explanation, just read Romans.

But where did Satan come from? He is a fallen angel, so was good beforehand even had direct knowledge of God.

God created Satan, and must have known he had the ability, if not the actuality, to turn evil so isn't that on God? What was the reason for creating Satan, if not introduce evil, and as such therefore evil is actual a part of the plan not something wrong.

And going back to the OP, isn't is scary that god would create such an instrument of evil when there doesn't appear to be any absolute reason for it. As expressed earlier, it would be possible to have free will without evil

And if by sin entering, we are all under Satan's control, can we be judged evil? Surely if even god couldn't control Satan what chance do we have and therefore blaming us, by sending us to hell, for being under the control of Satan seems immeasurably harsh.

antiskeptic · 07-10-2020 10:01pm

Leroy42 wrote: »

Does God carry this judgmental trait into heaven?

Free will must exist in heaven, otherwise as others have pointed out it is place of no consequence.

And if you free willingly chose to be stripped of your ability sin. And can therefore only choose freely between godly options?

There would be consequences for our choices. Just not negative ones.

If I choose to go in McDonalds, I exclude the subsequent consequence of eating a Whopper. But I still have plenty of consequential choice in McDonalds.

And Satan had the ability to turn away from God so free will must exist in heaven.

Presumably the angels were given a choice wrt God / no God just as we are. And Satan, like some of us, will opt for no God.

Once that choice is made, there is no need to revisit it. No Referendum II like we get here. No asking until he gets the answer he wants. Its what we want that matters: God /no God being the options on offer.

-

Having said all that, the biblical view ISN'T that we have free will here. 'Free will' would suggest we have a balanced choice wrt whether to sin or not.

The Bible is pretty drumbeat on the issue. It says we're born slaves to sin
Captives, prisoners, helpless, lost, etc. are the kinds of words used. We are not quite free not to sin. Else you'd have someone who'd freely choose not to sin and would remain righteous.

Apart from Jesus, no one has done that. Therefore, biblically, no free will.

santana75 · 08-10-2020 11:33am

Sandor Clegane wrote: »

After listening to some prominent atheists and doing some research the idea that there maybe a god is just as scary as the thought of simply nothing.

An all powerful god decides to create the world and humans and then fills the world with such pain and misery and then expects us to worship him constantly, why? It then tries to fill us with fear of his wrath if we disobey in anyway.

What kind of a god is it to do that? a very scary one in my honest opinion, I mean if I created life the last thing I would want to do is bestow untold misery on it and then demand it grovels to me, that's insane.

How do people reconcile the fact they are worshiping a god that does and behaves this way? We condemn dictators and evil despots for doing this kind of thing but God gets a free pass, why? is it not just as wrong? are people only believing and following out of fear?

Also how many religions and gods are there in the world? we only believe in what we believe because of geography...they can't all be true, if we were born in a different era or a different part of the world our beliefs would be totally different, yet Catholics and Christians don't bat an eye in not believing in any other religion or God..

Iv'e been struggling with this lately, id always considered myself a lapsed catholic, I don't attend church but I believed there maybe something, but now the thought of something is just as scary, if not scarier than simply ceasing to exist.

These are classic questions. Do you read the Bible regularly? Im not trying to dismiss what you're saying and I had all these same questions aswell, but then I was advised to read the Bible every day. I argued and dug my heels in, refusing to read that book, I thought what use is there in doing that? But eventually I relented and started to read it. What I found is that you'll get a lot of your questions answered. You'll get an understanding of God you could never have gotten by listening to someone else speak about God, or watching sermons online or even from the most qualified theologian there is. God's word will come alive and speak to you, and when it does you'll understand things you just didnt get before. You develop a relationship with God through his word and its through that relationship that you'll get your answers.
So I would direct you to the Bible, read it every day, first thing in the morning before you do anything else. The scriptures say that God rewards those who diligently seek him and if you look for him you will find him. Its all about your intentions really.

Leroy42 · 08-10-2020 11:49am

When you say read the bible, do you mean both the new and the old testament? Because God acs very differently in both. OT is he vengeful passes judgements, causing death and desease, chooses sides etc. Jesus is far more about forgiveness, free will, not judging people etc.

I would certainly be quite scared to think that the god of the OT exists, but Jesus does seem like a pretty nice god to have. But they do appear to be very different in their attitudes.

John Hutton · 08-10-2020 12:12pm

Leroy42 wrote: »

When you say read the bible, do you mean both the new and the old testament? Because God acs very differently in both. OT is he vengeful passes judgements, causing death and desease, chooses sides etc. Jesus is far more about forgiveness, free will, not judging people etc.

I would certainly be quite scared to think that the god of the OT exists, but Jesus does seem like a pretty nice god to have. But they do appear to be very different in their attitudes.

You have to read the entire Bible through the prism of Jesus

Timberrrrrrrr · 08-10-2020 12:22pm

John Hutton wrote: »

You have to read the entire Bible through the prism of Jesus

I'm sorry, what does that mean exactly?

copeyhagen · 08-10-2020 12:40pm

interesting timing, i just watched this the other night:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFiXZ051OTI&t=3229s

also,I read last night about Flavious Josephus and his writings about Jesus. pretty certain the aprts about Jesus are mostly added by later Christians. IMO

before, i was of the opinion that there probably was a dude named Jesus knocking around, though he didnt have supernatural powers, but now im thinking that he never existed at all.

im atheist btw and dont believe there is a God of any sorts.

Leroy42 · 08-10-2020 12:43pm

John Hutton wrote: »

You have to read the entire Bible through the prism of Jesus

But Jesus is God, so I am not sure what this is supposed to mean. Do you mean that we are to view God as the Jesus version, which of course paints the OT god is a very poor light.

Jesus said love thy neighbour and turn the other cheek, God killed every living thing in a flood, send plagues and death to an entire city on the basis of the Pharoah, which they were forced to obey, not letting the slaves go

But even taking it a face value, if I read the entire Bible through the prism of Jeus, then surely Jesus would be the first to cast God as a evil and not worthy of getting into heaven.

John Hutton · 08-10-2020 12:53pm

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

I'm sorry, what does that mean exactly?

The entire Bible, including books of the old testament, point and lead gradually towards Jesus as the ultimate revelation , He is the key to it all, hence you need to read the Bible in light of Him and his teachings. Here's a good video on it:

santana75 · 08-10-2020 1:20pm

Leroy42 wrote: »

When you say read the bible, do you mean both the new and the old testament? Because God acs very differently in both. OT is he vengeful passes judgements, causing death and desease, chooses sides etc. Jesus is far more about forgiveness, free will, not judging people etc.

I would certainly be quite scared to think that the god of the OT exists, but Jesus does seem like a pretty nice god to have. But they do appear to be very different in their attitudes.

Yes do read the whole Bible. For a long time I stayed clear of the old Testament, honestly I was afraid of what I might find: Death, destruction, plagues and a seemingly unforgiving God who had no issue with taking out 185,000 people in one fell swoop........but someone told me that the entire Old testament was about the coming of Jesus, that it was all pointing to him. So from that point of view I started to read Genesis and work my way through the OT book by book. By the time I'd finished I actually preferred the OT. All those things I mentioned above are there, but when you read that book something happens internally to you, an understanding comes and you just get it. I mean take for example when God told the Israelites to enter the land of Canaan(The promised land)and to take it by force. To wipe out all the inhabitants. And when he said all he meant, men, women, children......the whole lot. Now that on surface of things seems insane, but when you read about the inhabitants of Canaan you realise that what those people were up to was truly wicked. They were sacrificing their own children to pagan gods, engaging in bestiality on top ofa lot of other depraved sexual practices. It really was a proper wicked place. Joshua went in with his troops and cleared it all out, did what God said, killed them all and took the land. You may still think that this was harsh on God's part, but again I would say, the more you read his word, the more you understand God's point of view and the more of a personal relationship with him the more you'll understand these seemingly harsh and brutal actions.
But the OT is about Jesus, its amazing to see it all was predicted. Psalms is an incredible book about life, so too is proverbs. Ecclesiastes is very sobering but ultimately uplifting, the books of the prophets are also profound and inspiring. But the story of the Israelites in the wilderness is the story of humanity!! Thats the remarkable thing about this story, you can see yourself in it. Whats interesting though is that a lot of people think the OT is about this unforgiving God who reigns down fire and brimstone randomly on "Innocent" people. But the book of Kings and chronicles shows how Israel turned from God to live an amoral wicked life, but after a period of time of letting them do their own thing(and making an absolute mess of their lives)God would forgive them. Over and over. So when I read the OT now, I see everything pointing to Jesus and I see a God who continually forgives and shows incredible mercy towards his people.
Again these are experiential things, please read the whole Bible and I guarantee that you will come out the other end knowing a lot more about God and his character and having a different perspective of things that previously would've caused confusion, frustration and hostility.

santana75 · 08-10-2020 1:22pm

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

I'm sorry, what does that mean exactly?

Simply what this means is, when you read the Old testament, keep a watch out for mentions of the coming of Jesus. Its quite amazing to see how much he is mentioned.

John Hutton · 08-10-2020 1:37pm

Here's a relevant section from the Cachecism of the Catholic Church which might be useful for our discussion:

The senses of Scripture

115 According to an ancient tradition, one can distinguish between two senses of Scripture: the literal and the spiritual, the latter being subdivided into the allegorical, moral and anagogical senses. the profound concordance of the four senses guarantees all its richness to the living reading of Scripture in the Church.

116 The literal sense is the meaning conveyed by the words of Scripture and discovered by exegesis, following the rules of sound interpretation: "All other senses of Sacred Scripture are based on the literal."83

117 The spiritual sense. Thanks to the unity of God's plan, not only the text of Scripture but also the realities and events about which it speaks can be signs.
1. the allegorical sense. We can acquire a more profound understanding of events by recognizing their significance in Christ; thus the crossing of the Red Sea is a sign or type of Christ's victory and also of Christian Baptism.84
2. the moral sense. the events reported in Scripture ought to lead us to act justly. As St. Paul says, they were written "for our instruction".85
3. the anagogical sense (Greek: anagoge, "leading"). We can view realities and events in terms of their eternal significance, leading us toward our true homeland: thus the Church on earth is a sign of the heavenly Jerusalem.86

This kind of backs up what Bishop Barron says in his video, that the OT needn't be taken absolutely literally as it was written, but the meaning behind the words, the meaning that the author sought to convey, is what is to be taken "literally". But there are multiple ways to read the bible.

Bubbaclaus · 08-10-2020 1:38pm

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

I'm sorry, what does that mean exactly?

He means you should ignore all the bits in the bible where God acts like he is the supreme leader of North Korea, and only look at the 'nice' bits.

John Hutton · 08-10-2020 1:44pm

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

He means you should ignore all the bits in the bible where God acts like he is the supreme leader of North Korea, and only look at the 'nice' bits.

No, I don't mean that at all... Look it this way, the Bible is little bit like a big story with a big twist or amazing ending. When you read it a second time, knowing the ending, it colours your second reading and you see things that you didn't before, or interpret things in a different way and find new meaning in light of the ending that you know is coming. It changes a lot and you can see new, and truer, meaning.

Leroy42 · 08-10-2020 1:46pm

santana75 wrote: »

Simply what this means is, when you read the Old testament, keep a watch out for mentions of the coming of Jesus. Its quite amazing to see how much he is mentioned.

Really? So a book(s) that were written before happen to be linked to books that came after? Do you think that Terminator 2 proves that Terminator 1 was a true story? I mean, how did they manage to get the details the same?

John Hutton · 08-10-2020 1:49pm

Leroy42 wrote: »

Really? So a book(s) that were written before happen to be linked to books that came after? Do you think that Terminator 2 proves that Terminator 1 was a true story? I mean, how did they manage to get the details the same?

He's not saying that at all, rather that its all the one story and to understand it properly you need to take it all together.

Leroy42 · 08-10-2020 1:52pm

santana75 wrote: »

Yes do read the whole Bible. For a long time I stayed clear of the old Testament, honestly I was afraid of what I might find: Death, destruction, plagues and a seemingly unforgiving God who had no issue with taking out 185,000 people in one fell swoop........but someone told me that the entire Old testament was about the coming of Jesus, that it was all pointing to him. So from that point of view I started to read Genesis and work my way through the OT book by book. By the time I'd finished I actually preferred the OT. All those things I mentioned above are there, but when you read that book something happens internally to you, an understanding comes and you just get it. I mean take for example when God told the Israelites to enter the land of Canaan(The promised land)and to take it by force. To wipe out all the inhabitants. And when he said all he meant, men, women, children......the whole lot. Now that on surface of things seems insane, but when you read about the inhabitants of Canaan you realise that what those people were up to was truly wicked. They were sacrificing their own children to pagan gods, engaging in bestiality on top ofa lot of other depraved sexual practices. It really was a proper wicked place. Joshua went in with his troops and cleared it all out, did what God said, killed them all and took the land. You may still think that this was harsh on God's part, but again I would say, the more you read his word, the more you understand God's point of view and the more of a personal relationship with him the more you'll understand these seemingly harsh and brutal actions.
But the OT is about Jesus, its amazing to see it all was predicted. Psalms is an incredible book about life, so too is proverbs. Ecclesiastes is very sobering but ultimately uplifting, the books of the prophets are also profound and inspiring. But the story of the Israelites in the wilderness is the story of humanity!! Thats the remarkable thing about this story, you can see yourself in it. Whats interesting though is that a lot of people think the OT is about this unforgiving God who reigns down fire and brimstone randomly on "Innocent" people. But the book of Kings and chronicles shows how Israel turned from God to live an amoral wicked life, but after a period of time of letting them do their own thing(and making an absolute mess of their lives)God would forgive them. Over and over. So when I read the OT now, I see everything pointing to Jesus and I see a God who continually forgives and shows incredible mercy towards his people.
Again these are experiential things, please read the whole Bible and I guarantee that you will come out the other end knowing a lot more about God and his character and having a different perspective of things that previously would've caused confusion, frustration and hostility.

So you think the wholesale slaughter of children is perfectly reasonable and is a sign of a loving god? That the children were up to depraved sexual acts? What sexual acts exactly btw? Or we talking bondage, gay sex, paedos? What? Because all of that exists now so why isn't god smiting us al down? What has changed?

They were sacrificing their own children to pagan gods

. God asked Abraham to sacrifice his child to God, why is that different? The people looking to sacrifice, one assumes, believed in their god as much as Abraham believed the voices in his head.

So if it all points to Jesus, couldn't god have simply sent Jesus down at the start, rather than sluaghtering all those people. What was the delay? If god knew that everything was leading to Jesus, bearing in mind that he already had a reset with Noah and still humans fell so much that he needed to slaughter thousands of them at time, but then god changed tact and sent Jesus down and now everything is all about free will and paying the price after death.

How is that even consistent?

Leroy42 · 08-10-2020 1:54pm

John Hutton wrote: »

He's not saying that at all, rather that its all the one story and to understand it properly you need to take it all together.

Yes but you are aware that the story of Jesus was written after the OT was available. So it makes perfect sense that someone trying to create the 'truth' that Jesus was God would align with the prophecies in the OT.

It proves nothing except that the writers of the NT stories knew of the OT.

Is the possibility of a God not a scary thought...?

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