GF's mum is terminally ill. Work putting pressure on her to return to Ireland

Lostinspace · 02-10-2020 03:56PM #1

Hi,

My girlfriend, an Irish based employee for a multinational company, has returned to her home country (in the EU) and has been there for the past 2 months. She agreed with her boss before leaving Ireland that she would work remotely from there. All her work can be done remotely.

When she left here, her mum was in hospital at the time with an unknown illness. However, she has since been diagnosed with pancreatic cancer and the outlook is not great.

She has been entirely upfront with work in relation to where she is and she is working 5 days a week, taking the odd half-day or full day off to support her mum when she's going for chemotherapy. She just has one other sister. Her Dad is also sick at the moment and unable to walk very far. He's awaiting an appointment for a Cat scan/consultant visit.

In the last few days, work are putting my girlfriend under pressure to come up with a plan about returning to Ireland. However, it's extremely difficult for her as pancreatic cancer does not stick to schedules. My girlfriend's worst fear is that if she returns to Ireland, she may not be able to return easily to her country if COVID restrictions increase (reduced flight schedule, etc..). She's extremely close to her mum who needs her support at the moment.

My gf is not sure what to do about her work situation. She has suggested taking unpaid leave but the company said that they need her. But at the same time they said that they "could be in trouble in relation to taxes". Even if my gf does return here, her company aren't going to know wherther she's in Ireland or not. 95% of her colleagues have been working from home for 7 months and there are no plans to return to the office as they had 2 covid cases in the office recently (even with the low numbers in there).

I plan to visit my gf in the next month or so if i can.

It's a difficult situation. Any advice here would be fantastic.

CIARAN_BOYLE · 02-10-2020 04:00PM

Lostinspace wrote: »

Hi,

My girlfriend, an Irish based employee for a multinational company, has returned to her home country (in the EU) and has been there for the past 2 months. She agreed with her boss before leaving Ireland that she would work remotely from there. All her work can be done remotely.

When she left here, her mum was in hospital at the time with an unknown illness. However, she has since been diagnosed with pancreatic cancer and the outlook is not great.

She has been entirely upfront with work in relation to where she is and she is working 5 days a week, taking the odd half-day or full day off to support her mum when she's going for chemotherapy. She just has one other sister. Her Dad is also sick at the moment and unable to walk very far. He's awaiting an appointment for a Cat scan/consultant visit.

In the last few days, work are putting my girlfriend under pressure to come up with a plan about returning to Ireland. However, it's extremely difficult for her as pancreatic cancer does not stick to schedules. My girlfriend's worst fear is that if she returns to Ireland, she may not be able to return easily to her country if COVID restrictions increase (reduced flight schedule, etc..). She's extremely close to her mum who needs her support at the moment.

My gf is not sure what to do about her work situation. She has suggested taking unpaid leave but the company said that they need her. But at the same time they said that they "could be in trouble in relation to taxes". Even if my gf does return here, her company aren't going to know wherther she's in Ireland or not. 95% of her colleagues have been working from home for 7 months and there are no plans to return to the office as they had 2 covid cases in the office recently (even with the low numbers in there).

I plan to visit my gf in the next month or so if i can.

It's a difficult situation. Any advice here would be fantastic.

I suspect this is the real issue.

listermint · 02-10-2020 04:02PM

Hi OP. The company cannot keep the job open if she is non resident in Ireland this is solely for tax purposes. They also may not have a local office in her country they could assign her payroll to in order to be tax compliant.

This is not the company coming down on hard on her. It's them keeping everything above board with revenue compliance.

Unfortunately she has to return or lose the role.

thomas 123 · 02-10-2020 04:05PM

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

I suspect this is the real issue.

Yep, companies not willing to dive into what’s allowed and what is not in regards to working abroad.

See if she can isolate that as the primary factor and maybe if she comes back for a few weeks or so she may be able to go back again.

I’ve no idea though - our work place was touchy about this also but has since allowed us to work abroad.

marizpan · 02-10-2020 04:05PM

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

I suspect this is the real issue.

Totally agree.

They would need to register as an employer and file payroll in the eu country she is doing the work from as it’s not short term anymore at 2 months on.

SusanC10 · 02-10-2020 04:09PM

Just out of curiosity - what is the max amount of time a person can work from abroad ?

listermint · 02-10-2020 04:09PM

SusanC10 wrote: »

Just out of curiosity - what is the max amount of time a person can work from abroad ?

I thought it was circa 180 days

JustAThought · 02-10-2020 04:18PM

Multinational probably has less flexibility and built in compassion as they might be concerned it would set a precedent and rock the boat. Thou if her manager wanted they could close their eyes to it - would she have to attend work meetings if she returned to Ireland - given that our national policy is that workers should work from home wherever possible they could close their eyes to it given the trafic circumstances. Especially if she said she was in Ireland working from home. ( I know, IP addresses etc - its a question of not looking & assumptions being allowed to he made).

OP - pancreatic cancer can often be devestating & very fast moving l. If she knows in advance that they won’t allow her to take large amounts of annual leave or if they don’t have a compassionate leave programme, and if they won’t allow her take a large chunk of unpaid compassionate leave can she not take the initiative now and go to her doctor and get a medical cert that will enable her to remain where she is and focus on her family priority ( without being paid ) - this could be a sick note for an unspecified illness ( ie stress but not listed in the note) that rolls over every 2 weeks that allows her to stay and focus on her family but keeps her job for her. Maybe she knows a compassionate doctor in her home country.

Poorside · 02-10-2020 04:20PM

Would she pick up another role easy enough, because at the end of it all, if she left she'd be replaced.

Batgurl · 02-10-2020 05:54PM

OP, is it your girlfriends manager or HR who are putting the pressure on her?

I suspect it’s a manager who is either
a) naive and doesn’t fully understand the predicament or b) has a stick-up-their-arse and doesn’t like anything that they don’t agree with and so tries to push it down staffs throats as “company policy”

In my experience MNC’s are usually more compassionate about things like this as they have the bandwidth to pick up slack due to sheer volume of staff. So your gf should go to HR and ask for the official company policy on compassionate leave.

Mrs OBumble · 02-10-2020 05:54PM

Agree that the issue is taxes, and possibly also IDA subsidies.

Lostinspace wrote: »

....her company aren't going to know wherther she's in Ireland or not.

Unless she can work without logging in, then yes they are going to know, from her IP address. Don't even think it.

Does her home country have the equivalent of Carer's Allowance?

Samuel T. Cogley · 02-10-2020 07:38PM

Lostinspace wrote: »

Any advice here would be fantastic.

Would a leave of absence be a possibilty?

7aubzxk43m2sni · 02-10-2020 07:40PM

If she'd be continuing to WFH when she's back in Ireland, and wouldn't be expected to come to the office, she should just tell them that she has returned to Ireland, and change the backdrop wherever she's working so it looks like she has changed location

Lostinspace · 02-10-2020 07:51PM

listermint wrote: »

Hi OP. The company cannot keep the job open if she is non resident in Ireland this is solely for tax purposes. They also may not have a local office in her country they could assign her payroll to in order to be tax compliant.

This is not the company coming down on hard on her. It's them keeping everything above board with revenue compliance.

Unfortunately she has to return or lose the role.

I understand. I thought it was something like 180 days in the year that you have to be in Ireland in order to be tax compliant. I'm not sure.

The company actually does have a base in her country and a number of employees there, so I guess potentially they could temporarily re-assign her to that country's payroll?

Lostinspace · 02-10-2020 07:54PM

thomas 123 wrote: »

Yep, companies not willing to dive into what’s allowed and what is not in regards to working abroad.

See if she can isolate that as the primary factor and maybe if she comes back for a few weeks or so she may be able to go back again.

I’ve no idea though - our work place was touchy about this also but has since allowed us to work abroad.

Yes, she discussed that with her manager, but his response was that he could not give her any advice. He is awaiting "a plan" from her and I'm sure he will seek advice then internally.

Lostinspace · 02-10-2020 07:58PM

JustAThought wrote: »

Multinational probably has less flexibility and built in compassion as they might be concerned it would set a precedent and rock the boat. Thou if her manager wanted they could close their eyes to it - would she have to attend work meetings if she returned to Ireland - given that our national policy is that workers should work from home wherever possible they could close their eyes to it given the trafic circumstances. Especially if she said she was in Ireland working from home. ( I know, IP addresses etc - its a question of not looking & assumptions being allowed to he made).

OP - pancreatic cancer can often be devestating & very fast moving l. If she knows in advance that they won’t allow her to take large amounts of annual leave or if they don’t have a compassionate leave programme, and if they won’t allow her take a large chunk of unpaid compassionate leave can she not take the initiative now and go to her doctor and get a medical cert that will enable her to remain where she is and focus on her family priority ( without being paid ) - this could be a sick note for an unspecified illness ( ie stress but not listed in the note) that rolls over every 2 weeks that allows her to stay and focus on her family but keeps her job for her. Maybe she knows a compassionate doctor in her home country.

Thanks for the advice. I will speak to her about that. Not sure what her company's policy on compassionate leave is to be honest.

Going to the doctor for a sick note might be an option as well. She is suffering from anxiety over the whole issue and she is due to get some support locally.

Lostinspace · 02-10-2020 08:00PM

Batgurl wrote: »

OP, is it your girlfriends manager or HR who are putting the pressure on her?

I suspect it’s a manager who is either
a) naive and doesn’t fully understand the predicament or b) has a stick-up-their-arse and doesn’t like anything that they don’t agree with and so tries to push it down staffs throats as “company policy”

In my experience MNC’s are usually more compassionate about things like this as they have the bandwidth to pick up slack due to sheer volume of staff. So your gf should go to HR and ask for the official company policy on compassionate leave.

It's her manager. My GF has escalated it further but the same message seems to be coming back. I'll ask her to check what the compassionate leave policy is. Thanks.

Charles Babbage · 02-10-2020 08:01PM

Lostinspace wrote: »

Yes, she discussed that with her manager, but his response was that he could not give her any advice. He is awaiting "a plan" from her and I'm sure he will seek advice then internally.

Study carefully HR provisions for compassionate leave, as discussed above.
If this exists, and likely it does, then state that if arrangements are made for remote working then the time required can be reduced.
This only sets a precedent for people with parents with pancreatic cancer, which shouldn't be a problem.

Lostinspace · 02-10-2020 08:02PM

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Agree that the issue is taxes, and possibly also IDA subsidies.

Unless she can work without logging in, then yes they are going to know, from her IP address. Don't even think it.

Does her home country have the equivalent of Carer's Allowance?

IP Address. Didn't really think of that. They use Citrix, so I'm sure all that data is available for IT to run a report for the management.

They might have a Carer's allowance. I'm not sure. Will ask her to check. Really appreciate the advice.

Darc19 · 02-10-2020 08:03PM

Where's the issue?

The company has not said she must return. They simply want a plan from her for returning.

Chances are she's working from home since April, so it's 6 months.

Does the company know how long she's been back home to the other country?

The 6 months is the important time frame. Give a plan that shows she will be back well within the 6 months.

Then look at what holidays are due and look at taking them before year end to give an extension

But in reality, the company is just looking for information and not putting any undue pressure except that they need to know what she plans so that they are not at risk.

Maybe she gives them the option to transfer her temporarily - but it would be at local pay rate which possibly is lower.

Lostinspace · 02-10-2020 08:03PM

Adrienne Rich Rollerblade wrote: »

If she'd be continuing to WFH when she's back in Ireland, and wouldn't be expected to come to the office, she should just tell them that she has returned to Ireland, and change the backdrop wherever she's working so it looks like she has changed location

Probably not going to work. If manager rings her mobile then they'd probably get foreign dialtone. Also, IP address issue, as mentioned before.

Melanchthon · 02-10-2020 08:05PM

Charles Babbage wrote: »

Study carefully HR provisions for compassionate leave, as discussed above.
If this exists, and likely it does, then state that if arrangements are made for remote working then the time required can be reduced.
This only sets a precedent for people with parents with pancreatic cancer, which shouldn't be a problem.

As has been discussed a bit recently in the media and here this stuff isn't just about the company being inflexible it's about the various potentially big tax implications including authorities in the place the GF is going to be based not just Ireland.

Blud · 02-10-2020 08:10PM

Lostinspace wrote: »

I understand. I thought it was something like 180 days in the year that you have to be in Ireland in order to be tax compliant. I'm not sure.

The company actually does have a base in her country and a number of employees there, so I guess potentially they could temporarily re-assign her to that country's payroll?

Not as simple as just assigning her payroll elsewhere, she has an Irish employment so PAYE is due unless she becomes non resident completely.

Theres loads of reasons why companies don't want remote working from another country, I'll list some here:

Employment law
Payroll withholding
Social security, employee and employer
Immigration issues, right to work etc
Corporation tax - does her presence in the other country constitute a permanent establishment of the Irish company in that country
Associated transfer pricing issues
VAT issues potentially
Issues with claiming other reliefs, eg R&D credits require the work to be done in Ireland

Loads of things, that's just from the top of my head.

Loads of companies are now telling staff to return, irish times ran a story re google doing that just yesterday.

Lostinspace · 02-10-2020 08:12PM

Darc19 wrote: »

Where's the issue?

The company has not said she must return. They simply want a plan from her for returning.

Chances are she's working from home since April, so it's 6 months.

Does the company know how long she's been back home to the other country?

The 6 months is the important time frame. Give a plan that shows she will be back well within the 6 months.

Then look at what holidays are due and look at taking them before year end to give an extension

But in reality, the company is just looking for information and not putting any undue pressure except that they need to know what she plans so that they are not at risk.

Maybe she gives them the option to transfer her temporarily - but it would be at local pay rate which possibly is lower.

Yes, they're looking for a plan/timeline as to when she will return to Ireland.

The company know she has been in her country for 2 months. Just to clarify, when you mention 6 months, are you referring to the 180 days that she must be in Ireland to be a tax resident? I'm not sure about 180 days (I need to do some research on that).

Transfer may be an option too but preferably a last resort. Salary would be lower for sure.

Darc19 · 02-10-2020 09:02PM

Lostinspace wrote: »

Yes, they're looking for a plan/timeline as to when she will return to Ireland.

The company know she has been in her country for 2 months. Just to clarify, when you mention 6 months, are you referring to the 180 days that she must be in Ireland to be a tax resident? I'm not sure about 180 days (I need to do some research on that).

Transfer may be an option too but preferably a last resort. Salary would be lower for sure.

6 months / 180 days, basically the same.

If it's a multi national, you will find that they are very understanding, but they must know the situation and her plans.

That's all they are asking for.

I think people are reading far too much into it.

I'd suggest she comes back here for a couple of weeks suggest til early Nov, but she could "need" to go early and then go back over, this should get her past Christmas.

Then say at that stage she will have put in place a care plan.

marizpan · 03-10-2020 09:46AM

This isn’t about the 183 day residence rule, it’s about the place of employment aka employment and tax law/DTA/permanent establishment etc and all those related issues.

To continue working abroad she would need to take an outbound secondment with the other subsidiary in that country or take leave.

The company aren’t being difficult, it really will put them in muddy water from a tax and legal perspective if it continues.

Batgurl · 03-10-2020 10:36AM

marizpan wrote: »

The company aren’t being difficult

While the rest of your post was solid marzipan, I don’t agree with this bit. Or at least, I would say the person she is dealing with, her manager, IS being difficult to the point of cruel — and it’s reflecting very badly on the company.

The woman’s mother has pancreatic cancer and she asked to take unpaid leave and they refused.

What kind of heartless manager gets told by one of their staff that their mother has pancreatic cancer, a horribly painful and high mortality rate disease, and doesn’t cut that person some slack? Especially when they aren’t asking for special treatment; it would be UNPAID?

I genuinely think this is an example of a bad manager. OP’s girlfriend would do well to talk to other managers in the company to see if they’d have the same stance.

listermint · 03-10-2020 10:56AM

Batgurl wrote: »

While the rest of your post was solid marzipan, I don’t agree with this bit. Or at least, I would say the person she is dealing with, her manager, IS being difficult to the point of cruel — and it’s reflecting very badly on the company.

The woman’s mother has pancreatic cancer and she asked to take unpaid leave and they refused.

What kind of heartless manager gets told by one of their staff that their mother has pancreatic cancer, a horribly painful and high mortality rate disease, and doesn’t cut that person some slack? Especially when they aren’t asking for special treatment; it would be UNPAID?

I genuinely think this is an example of a bad manager. OP’s girlfriend would do well to talk to other managers in the company to see if they’d have the same stance.

You have no notion of company policies and compliance in relation to this subject. That much is evident. This isn't a manager making a decision it's the entire companies policy.

If you set policy within a MNC I'd suggest you reeducate or speak to your superiors. If you don't set policy and are a manager yourself I'd suggest a training course. You can find yourself in ****s creek fast enough following your advice.

Batgurl · 03-10-2020 11:05AM

listermint wrote: »

You have no notion of company policies and compliance in relation to this subject. That much is evident. This isn't a manager making a decision it's the entire companies policy.

If you set policy within a MNC I'd suggest you reeducate or speak to your superiors. If you don't set policy and are a manager yourself I'd suggest a training course. You can find yourself in ****s creek fast enough following your advice.

How do you know this isn’t a manager making a decision? Or what the company policy is?

cnocbui · 03-10-2020 11:13AM

What a weird thread. If you have pancreatic cancer with a poor prognosis, why would you even consider returning to work?

listermint · 03-10-2020 11:16AM

Batgurl wrote: »

How do you know this isn’t a manager making a decision? Or what the company policy is?

You've summed up my point beautifully for me in one post.

GF's mum is terminally ill. Work putting pressure on her to return to Ireland

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