GF's mum is terminally ill. Work putting pressure on her to return to Ireland

Lostinspace

Hi,

My girlfriend, an Irish based employee for a multinational company, has returned to her home country (in the EU) and has been there for the past 2 months. She agreed with her boss before leaving Ireland that she would work remotely from there. All her work can be done remotely.

When she left here, her mum was in hospital at the time with an unknown illness. However, she has since been diagnosed with pancreatic cancer and the outlook is not great.

She has been entirely upfront with work in relation to where she is and she is working 5 days a week, taking the odd half-day or full day off to support her mum when she's going for chemotherapy. She just has one other sister. Her Dad is also sick at the moment and unable to walk very far. He's awaiting an appointment for a Cat scan/consultant visit.

In the last few days, work are putting my girlfriend under pressure to come up with a plan about returning to Ireland. However, it's extremely difficult for her as pancreatic cancer does not stick to schedules. My girlfriend's worst fear is that if she returns to Ireland, she may not be able to return easily to her country if COVID restrictions increase (reduced flight schedule, etc..). She's extremely close to her mum who needs her support at the moment.

My gf is not sure what to do about her work situation. She has suggested taking unpaid leave but the company said that they need her. But at the same time they said that they "could be in trouble in relation to taxes". Even if my gf does return here, her company aren't going to know wherther she's in Ireland or not. 95% of her colleagues have been working from home for 7 months and there are no plans to return to the office as they had 2 covid cases in the office recently (even with the low numbers in there).

I plan to visit my gf in the next month or so if i can.

It's a difficult situation. Any advice here would be fantastic.

CIARAN_BOYLE

Lostinspace wrote: »

Hi,

My girlfriend, an Irish based employee for a multinational company, has returned to her home country (in the EU) and has been there for the past 2 months. She agreed with her boss before leaving Ireland that she would work remotely from there. All her work can be done remotely.

When she left here, her mum was in hospital at the time with an unknown illness. However, she has since been diagnosed with pancreatic cancer and the outlook is not great.

She has been entirely upfront with work in relation to where she is and she is working 5 days a week, taking the odd half-day or full day off to support her mum when she's going for chemotherapy. She just has one other sister. Her Dad is also sick at the moment and unable to walk very far. He's awaiting an appointment for a Cat scan/consultant visit.

In the last few days, work are putting my girlfriend under pressure to come up with a plan about returning to Ireland. However, it's extremely difficult for her as pancreatic cancer does not stick to schedules. My girlfriend's worst fear is that if she returns to Ireland, she may not be able to return easily to her country if COVID restrictions increase (reduced flight schedule, etc..). She's extremely close to her mum who needs her support at the moment.

My gf is not sure what to do about her work situation. She has suggested taking unpaid leave but the company said that they need her. But at the same time they said that they "could be in trouble in relation to taxes". Even if my gf does return here, her company aren't going to know wherther she's in Ireland or not. 95% of her colleagues have been working from home for 7 months and there are no plans to return to the office as they had 2 covid cases in the office recently (even with the low numbers in there).

I plan to visit my gf in the next month or so if i can.

It's a difficult situation. Any advice here would be fantastic.

I suspect this is the real issue.

listermint

Hi OP. The company cannot keep the job open if she is non resident in Ireland this is solely for tax purposes. They also may not have a local office in her country they could assign her payroll to in order to be tax compliant.

This is not the company coming down on hard on her. It's them keeping everything above board with revenue compliance.

Unfortunately she has to return or lose the role.

thomas 123

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

I suspect this is the real issue.

Yep, companies not willing to dive into what’s allowed and what is not in regards to working abroad.

See if she can isolate that as the primary factor and maybe if she comes back for a few weeks or so she may be able to go back again.

I’ve no idea though - our work place was touchy about this also but has since allowed us to work abroad.

marizpan

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

I suspect this is the real issue.

Totally agree.

They would need to register as an employer and file payroll in the eu country she is doing the work from as it’s not short term anymore at 2 months on.

SusanC10

Just out of curiosity - what is the max amount of time a person can work from abroad ?

listermint

SusanC10 wrote: »

Just out of curiosity - what is the max amount of time a person can work from abroad ?

I thought it was circa 180 days

JustAThought

Multinational probably has less flexibility and built in compassion as they might be concerned it would set a precedent and rock the boat. Thou if her manager wanted they could close their eyes to it - would she have to attend work meetings if she returned to Ireland - given that our national policy is that workers should work from home wherever possible they could close their eyes to it given the trafic circumstances. Especially if she said she was in Ireland working from home. ( I know, IP addresses etc - its a question of not looking & assumptions being allowed to he made).

OP - pancreatic cancer can often be devestating & very fast moving l. If she knows in advance that they won’t allow her to take large amounts of annual leave or if they don’t have a compassionate leave programme, and if they won’t allow her take a large chunk of unpaid compassionate leave can she not take the initiative now and go to her doctor and get a medical cert that will enable her to remain where she is and focus on her family priority ( without being paid ) - this could be a sick note for an unspecified illness ( ie stress but not listed in the note) that rolls over every 2 weeks that allows her to stay and focus on her family but keeps her job for her. Maybe she knows a compassionate doctor in her home country.

Poorside

Would she pick up another role easy enough, because at the end of it all, if she left she'd be replaced.

Batgurl

OP, is it your girlfriends manager or HR who are putting the pressure on her?

I suspect it’s a manager who is either
a) naive and doesn’t fully understand the predicament or b) has a stick-up-their-arse and doesn’t like anything that they don’t agree with and so tries to push it down staffs throats as “company policy”

In my experience MNC’s are usually more compassionate about things like this as they have the bandwidth to pick up slack due to sheer volume of staff. So your gf should go to HR and ask for the official company policy on compassionate leave.

Mrs OBumble

Agree that the issue is taxes, and possibly also IDA subsidies.

Lostinspace wrote: »

....her company aren't going to know wherther she's in Ireland or not.

Unless she can work without logging in, then yes they are going to know, from her IP address. Don't even think it.

Does her home country have the equivalent of Carer's Allowance?

Samuel T. Cogley

Lostinspace wrote: »

Any advice here would be fantastic.

Would a leave of absence be a possibilty?

7aubzxk43m2sni

If she'd be continuing to WFH when she's back in Ireland, and wouldn't be expected to come to the office, she should just tell them that she has returned to Ireland, and change the backdrop wherever she's working so it looks like she has changed location

Lostinspace

listermint wrote: »

Hi OP. The company cannot keep the job open if she is non resident in Ireland this is solely for tax purposes. They also may not have a local office in her country they could assign her payroll to in order to be tax compliant.

This is not the company coming down on hard on her. It's them keeping everything above board with revenue compliance.

Unfortunately she has to return or lose the role.

I understand. I thought it was something like 180 days in the year that you have to be in Ireland in order to be tax compliant. I'm not sure.

The company actually does have a base in her country and a number of employees there, so I guess potentially they could temporarily re-assign her to that country's payroll?

Lostinspace

thomas 123 wrote: »

Yep, companies not willing to dive into what’s allowed and what is not in regards to working abroad.

See if she can isolate that as the primary factor and maybe if she comes back for a few weeks or so she may be able to go back again.

I’ve no idea though - our work place was touchy about this also but has since allowed us to work abroad.

Yes, she discussed that with her manager, but his response was that he could not give her any advice. He is awaiting "a plan" from her and I'm sure he will seek advice then internally.

Lostinspace

JustAThought wrote: »

Multinational probably has less flexibility and built in compassion as they might be concerned it would set a precedent and rock the boat. Thou if her manager wanted they could close their eyes to it - would she have to attend work meetings if she returned to Ireland - given that our national policy is that workers should work from home wherever possible they could close their eyes to it given the trafic circumstances. Especially if she said she was in Ireland working from home. ( I know, IP addresses etc - its a question of not looking & assumptions being allowed to he made).

OP - pancreatic cancer can often be devestating & very fast moving l. If she knows in advance that they won’t allow her to take large amounts of annual leave or if they don’t have a compassionate leave programme, and if they won’t allow her take a large chunk of unpaid compassionate leave can she not take the initiative now and go to her doctor and get a medical cert that will enable her to remain where she is and focus on her family priority ( without being paid ) - this could be a sick note for an unspecified illness ( ie stress but not listed in the note) that rolls over every 2 weeks that allows her to stay and focus on her family but keeps her job for her. Maybe she knows a compassionate doctor in her home country.

Thanks for the advice. I will speak to her about that. Not sure what her company's policy on compassionate leave is to be honest.

Going to the doctor for a sick note might be an option as well. She is suffering from anxiety over the whole issue and she is due to get some support locally.

Lostinspace

Batgurl wrote: »

OP, is it your girlfriends manager or HR who are putting the pressure on her?

I suspect it’s a manager who is either
a) naive and doesn’t fully understand the predicament or b) has a stick-up-their-arse and doesn’t like anything that they don’t agree with and so tries to push it down staffs throats as “company policy”

In my experience MNC’s are usually more compassionate about things like this as they have the bandwidth to pick up slack due to sheer volume of staff. So your gf should go to HR and ask for the official company policy on compassionate leave.

It's her manager. My GF has escalated it further but the same message seems to be coming back. I'll ask her to check what the compassionate leave policy is. Thanks.

Charles Babbage

Lostinspace wrote: »

Yes, she discussed that with her manager, but his response was that he could not give her any advice. He is awaiting "a plan" from her and I'm sure he will seek advice then internally.

Study carefully HR provisions for compassionate leave, as discussed above.
If this exists, and likely it does, then state that if arrangements are made for remote working then the time required can be reduced.
This only sets a precedent for people with parents with pancreatic cancer, which shouldn't be a problem.

Lostinspace

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Agree that the issue is taxes, and possibly also IDA subsidies.





Unless she can work without logging in, then yes they are going to know, from her IP address. Don't even think it.

Does her home country have the equivalent of Carer's Allowance?

IP Address. Didn't really think of that. They use Citrix, so I'm sure all that data is available for IT to run a report for the management.

They might have a Carer's allowance. I'm not sure. Will ask her to check. Really appreciate the advice.

Darc19

Where's the issue?

The company has not said she must return. They simply want a plan from her for returning.

Chances are she's working from home since April, so it's 6 months.

Does the company know how long she's been back home to the other country?


The 6 months is the important time frame. Give a plan that shows she will be back well within the 6 months.

Then look at what holidays are due and look at taking them before year end to give an extension


But in reality, the company is just looking for information and not putting any undue pressure except that they need to know what she plans so that they are not at risk.


Maybe she gives them the option to transfer her temporarily - but it would be at local pay rate which possibly is lower.

Lostinspace

Adrienne Rich Rollerblade wrote: »

If she'd be continuing to WFH when she's back in Ireland, and wouldn't be expected to come to the office, she should just tell them that she has returned to Ireland, and change the backdrop wherever she's working so it looks like she has changed location

Probably not going to work. If manager rings her mobile then they'd probably get foreign dialtone. Also, IP address issue, as mentioned before.

Melanchthon

Charles Babbage wrote: »

Study carefully HR provisions for compassionate leave, as discussed above.
If this exists, and likely it does, then state that if arrangements are made for remote working then the time required can be reduced.
This only sets a precedent for people with parents with pancreatic cancer, which shouldn't be a problem.

As has been discussed a bit recently in the media and here this stuff isn't just about the company being inflexible it's about the various potentially big tax implications including authorities in the place the GF is going to be based not just Ireland.

Blud

Lostinspace wrote: »

I understand. I thought it was something like 180 days in the year that you have to be in Ireland in order to be tax compliant. I'm not sure.

The company actually does have a base in her country and a number of employees there, so I guess potentially they could temporarily re-assign her to that country's payroll?

Not as simple as just assigning her payroll elsewhere, she has an Irish employment so PAYE is due unless she becomes non resident completely.

Theres loads of reasons why companies don't want remote working from another country, I'll list some here:

Employment law
Payroll withholding
Social security, employee and employer
Immigration issues, right to work etc
Corporation tax - does her presence in the other country constitute a permanent establishment of the Irish company in that country
Associated transfer pricing issues
VAT issues potentially
Issues with claiming other reliefs, eg R&D credits require the work to be done in Ireland

Loads of things, that's just from the top of my head.

Loads of companies are now telling staff to return, irish times ran a story re google doing that just yesterday.

Lostinspace

Darc19 wrote: »

Where's the issue?

The company has not said she must return. They simply want a plan from her for returning.

Chances are she's working from home since April, so it's 6 months.

Does the company know how long she's been back home to the other country?


The 6 months is the important time frame. Give a plan that shows she will be back well within the 6 months.

Then look at what holidays are due and look at taking them before year end to give an extension


But in reality, the company is just looking for information and not putting any undue pressure except that they need to know what she plans so that they are not at risk.


Maybe she gives them the option to transfer her temporarily - but it would be at local pay rate which possibly is lower.

Yes, they're looking for a plan/timeline as to when she will return to Ireland.

The company know she has been in her country for 2 months. Just to clarify, when you mention 6 months, are you referring to the 180 days that she must be in Ireland to be a tax resident? I'm not sure about 180 days (I need to do some research on that).

Transfer may be an option too but preferably a last resort. Salary would be lower for sure.

Darc19

Lostinspace wrote: »

Yes, they're looking for a plan/timeline as to when she will return to Ireland.

The company know she has been in her country for 2 months. Just to clarify, when you mention 6 months, are you referring to the 180 days that she must be in Ireland to be a tax resident? I'm not sure about 180 days (I need to do some research on that).

Transfer may be an option too but preferably a last resort. Salary would be lower for sure.

6 months / 180 days, basically the same.


If it's a multi national, you will find that they are very understanding, but they must know the situation and her plans.

That's all they are asking for.

I think people are reading far too much into it.

I'd suggest she comes back here for a couple of weeks suggest til early Nov, but she could "need" to go early and then go back over, this should get her past Christmas.

Then say at that stage she will have put in place a care plan.

marizpan

This isn’t about the 183 day residence rule, it’s about the place of employment aka employment and tax law/DTA/permanent establishment etc and all those related issues.

To continue working abroad she would need to take an outbound secondment with the other subsidiary in that country or take leave.

The company aren’t being difficult, it really will put them in muddy water from a tax and legal perspective if it continues.

Batgurl

marizpan wrote: »

The company aren’t being difficult

While the rest of your post was solid marzipan, I don’t agree with this bit. Or at least, I would say the person she is dealing with, her manager, IS being difficult to the point of cruel — and it’s reflecting very badly on the company.

The woman’s mother has pancreatic cancer and she asked to take unpaid leave and they refused.

What kind of heartless manager gets told by one of their staff that their mother has pancreatic cancer, a horribly painful and high mortality rate disease, and doesn’t cut that person some slack? Especially when they aren’t asking for special treatment; it would be UNPAID?

I genuinely think this is an example of a bad manager. OP’s girlfriend would do well to talk to other managers in the company to see if they’d have the same stance.

listermint

Batgurl wrote: »

While the rest of your post was solid marzipan, I don’t agree with this bit. Or at least, I would say the person she is dealing with, her manager, IS being difficult to the point of cruel — and it’s reflecting very badly on the company.

The woman’s mother has pancreatic cancer and she asked to take unpaid leave and they refused.

What kind of heartless manager gets told by one of their staff that their mother has pancreatic cancer, a horribly painful and high mortality rate disease, and doesn’t cut that person some slack? Especially when they aren’t asking for special treatment; it would be UNPAID?

I genuinely think this is an example of a bad manager. OP’s girlfriend would do well to talk to other managers in the company to see if they’d have the same stance.

You have no notion of company policies and compliance in relation to this subject. That much is evident. This isn't a manager making a decision it's the entire companies policy.

If you set policy within a MNC I'd suggest you reeducate or speak to your superiors. If you don't set policy and are a manager yourself I'd suggest a training course. You can find yourself in ****s creek fast enough following your advice.

Batgurl

listermint wrote: »

You have no notion of company policies and compliance in relation to this subject. That much is evident. This isn't a manager making a decision it's the entire companies policy.

If you set policy within a MNC I'd suggest you reeducate or speak to your superiors. If you don't set policy and are a manager yourself I'd suggest a training course. You can find yourself in ****s creek fast enough following your advice.

How do you know this isn’t a manager making a decision? Or what the company policy is?

cnocbui

What a weird thread. If you have pancreatic cancer with a poor prognosis, why would you even consider returning to work?

listermint

Batgurl wrote: »

How do you know this isn’t a manager making a decision? Or what the company policy is?

You've summed up my point beautifully for me in one post.

Charles Babbage

listermint wrote: »

You have no notion of company policies and compliance in relation to this subject. That much is evident. This isn't a manager making a decision it's the entire companies policy.

If you set policy within a MNC I'd suggest you reeducate or speak to your superiors. If you don't set policy and are a manager yourself I'd suggest a training course. You can find yourself in ****s creek fast enough following your advice.

THe policy on people working remotely being required to return to Ireland is of course a company policy. The policy on not making any allowance for a person with a parent with pancreatic cancer may not be company policy at all.

Batgurl

listermint wrote: »

You've summed up my point beautifully for me in one post.

The OP literally said it’s the manager making the decision? Have a read of the thread.

And regardless of the “being out of the country” rules, any company (MNC included) can use discretion to allow employees to take unpaid leave for compassionate reasons. It’s usually at “managers discretion” therefore manager is being a dick.

Pauliedragon

cnocbui wrote: »

What a weird thread. If you have pancreatic cancer with a poor prognosis, why would you even consider returning to work?

The employees mother has the cancer.

cnocbui

Pauliedragon wrote: »

The employees mother has the cancer.

My apologies, I should have read the first post, as I clearly got the wrong gist.

con___manx1

Your girlfriends manager sounds like they would have been a great recruit for the SS.
He/she must not have one ounce of empathy.
I hate people like that. If I was your girlfriend I'd leave that job. Couldn't work for a **** like that.

jrosen

Managers in MN dont have any control whatsoever on company policies so he/she is likely following orders from their boss.

Your girlfriend can not continue to work abroad and be paid here. Thats not how it works and there are tax implications for the company.

All your girlfriend is being asked for is to let them know what her plan is. If she can not return to Ireland then she is going to have to tell her employer that she wont be returning. Explore the companies policy on compassionate leave? or perhaps a career break, unpaid leave.

Have you looked into applying for Carer's Leave?

I don't know if your girlfriend would qualify, and its unpaid, but it would allow her the time off to stay with her mother and potentially get her employer off her back?

JustAThought

Interesting - I didn’t know this existed. I wonder if
you can apply for and have the unpaid benefit credit in one country but do the caring in another country? If EU this might technically be possible - child allowance is paid to ‘mothers’ in Ireland regardless of where the child used be living.

I used travel a lot for work & had a regular stays in London - tax and tax credits never became an issue even though I would spend about 45% of the month over there. Nobody brought it up and it was never an issue. This was a global brand & multinational.

There is the possibility that although IP addresses are trackable that we are overthinking it on their behalf. The company also possibly wants reassurance in case of human and intellectual asssets and their exposure to illness & lockdown risk - eg if in Italy or Spain & they get another serious lockdown s/he will not be legally able to return for God knows how long. Or if the country is put in a no flight out (or in- unlikely) list. Or if she is in the USA & their restrictions are implemented on them. Or if s/he is somewhere on a high risk list with little testing or restrictions like Indonesia or Vietnam - then she could pose a much higher infection risk to her colleagues when she returns... it might just be part of their overall planning & risk strategy processes they have to collate and not anything more sinister...

Most companies especially multinationals have online or otherwise personal handbooks that outline all of this. Did she get a copy or link when she joined up? Mostly they are thrown in a drawer until there is a crisis. Maybe time to locate it now? I think they are legally obliged to provide one unless they were printing encyclopaedic individual contracts.