Relaxation of Restrictions, Part V - Read OP for Mod Warnings

3xh · 27-09-2020 08:10AM

hmmm wrote: »

Is that really the best answer you can come up with? That's pretty lame in fairness.

How about something like this - "I understand that as a community we should protect people who are weaker than the rest, but even in a pandemic we need to see if there are ways we can better protect the economy and other essential services by asking those people to take on a bigger responsibility to protect themselves."

See how easy that is? Try it. I can't do any more for you, you're big into helping yourself.

Thank you for your service was absolutely suitable for the post it was written for. Your post was full of sacrifice and community action.

In the meantime, your blanket support for all things lockdown to protect that small group that are most likely to succumb to Covid does nothing for the people losing their job, ability to fund a pension for their retirement (like the government have been stressing we must all do), meet friends, family and travel (because of the deliberately misleading wording of this government, many people think it’s somehow illegal to do such and behave accordingly).

Will you support and rally for those affected by the decisions you back? Happy for a tax rise? Enforced acceptance of a lodger, rent free? Spend a few hours a day meeting someone (2m apart) in despair because of decisions not of their making?

You’re an arrogant tit to so wilfully publicly support the government actions. It’s been pointed out to you, Covid is no longer a single dilemma, a binary Yes/No problem yet you refuse to acknowledge that and the manifestations we see in life now.

It’s all; we must do X to mitigate Covid and when we’ve done that we’ll throw an eye over some of the other problems that are rearing their heads.

As for the related grey vote that cropped up after your post, this is absolutely true. They didn’t take to the streets over their pension for the benefit of their grandchildren. The argument ‘we’ve earned it’ is tenuous.

Stormyteacup · 27-09-2020 08:37AM

3xh wrote: »

Thank you for your service was absolutely suitable for the post it was written for. Your post was full of sacrifice and community action.

I can almost understand why some people are clinging so tightly to the narrative.

Imagine you have been rigidly adhering to every nonsense regulation and guideline, believing in good faith the message your government and a panel of medical experts have been allowed to spread, with any alternative opinion being painted as lunacy/selfishness -

Six months of denying yourself physical contact with loved ones, all the little sacrifices to do without the small pleasures that make life enjoyable, in the belief that ultimately it’s worth it as you are saving lives. That’s right, you’re you own little hero in your own little world.

Difficult to be face up to the futility of it all. Must be like living a pious and austere life to make sure you get into heaven, only to find out at the end there isn’t one.

Basic precautions and targeted shielding of the vulnerable (evidence shows far fewer of even those than thought) was always enough to achieve the goal of a slow spread of this virus. There’s been more than enough evidence of this for a quite a while now.

Tough thing to hold your hands up and admit to being a willing bit-part player in the economic carnage unfolding.

walus · 27-09-2020 08:43AM

hmmm wrote: »

The only good thing is that 90% of the population have a sense of responsibility and community spirit, so you're in a minority. And I'm personally happy to live in a society where we will make sacrifices to protect other people.

Hmmm, i agree that a part of being a functioning society we need to make sacrifices and look out for each other. However, I don’t think that a part of this social contract is to do so at the expense of lives, health and well being of others. It is only when reasonable and feasible to do, that this arrangement makes sense. As an elderly or a vulnerable person I would not be happy knowing that protecting my life requires other people to sacrifice what I believe is way, way too much. In fact I would be quite upset.

Edit: I would not be happy to live in a society where we are sacrificing one’s life to save another’s.

jackboy · 27-09-2020 08:44AM

Stormyteacup wrote: »

Tough thing to hold your hands up and admit to being a willing bit-part player in the economic carnage unfolding.

Carnage is right. I know a guy who manages pension funds. For the first time ever he has pulled all of the pensions out of the stock market. Some scary stuff on the way.

KindOfIrish · 27-09-2020 08:57AM

jackboy wrote: »

Carnage is right. I know a guy who manages pension funds. For the first time ever he has pulled all of the pensions out of the stock market. Some scary stuff on the way.

I'm afraid that the economic carnage is the only way to bring this country (and many others) back to senses.

27-09-2020 08:59AM

I have asked some people several times now to comment on whether their own job or salary have been impacted in any way by lockdown/restrictions. Unsurprisingly, the questions gets ignored almost every single time. I think we can all easily work out what that means...

Very easy to say things like "We are ALL in this together" or "We all need to suck it up for the next 6 - 12 months".

Of course for some people, "sucking it up" means that you continue to work full time and earn a full wage. Probably with even less expenses if you are working from home. And depending on your social life, maybe not even too much of an impact.

"Sucking it up" for others means losing a job, losing a business, losing a livelihood, surviving on 300 quid a week, trying to keep the banks away while the only advice from our finance minister is that banks treat people "sensitively" at this time. All of that stress while you have very little social outlets and could be breaking the rules if you even meet with a few family members in a house for a chat.

But some posters will no doubt make themselves out to be pillars of the community. Want to live in a society that will do anything to protect the elderly. Want to help out fellow citizens...

As long as its them feasting at the top table and feeding scraps to those below.

I wonder what the reaction to Covid would be if MM, Donnelly and Glynn were put on 300 quid a week? Would it still be a "Deadly" virus? Or would it be a mild illness that won't kill at least 99% of the population.

Multipass · 27-09-2020 09:02AM

https://www.thejournal.ie/letterkenny-protest-garda-investigation-donegal-5215799-Sep2020/

Jesus this is getting more Orwellian by the day. Now they’re going to try to deny the right to protest.

‘An Garda Síochána said its investigation was being conducted under the Health Act, 1947 (Section 31A – Temporary Restrictions) (Covid-19) (No 5) Regulations 2020 which came into effect on 19 September.

Regulation 15 states: “A person shall not organise, or cause to be organised, a relevant event in a relevant county.”

The expectations to this are if the event only takes place outdoors and if the person takes “all reasonable steps to ensure that the event is attended, or proposed to be attended by no more than 15 persons”.’

iamwhoiam · 27-09-2020 09:12AM

walus wrote: »

Hmmm, i agree that a part of being a functioning society we need to make sacrifices and look out for each other. However, I don’t think that a part of this social contract is to do so at the expense of lives, health and well being of others. It is only when reasonable and feasible to do, that this makes sense. As an elderly or a vulnerable person I would not be happy knowing that protecting my life requires other people to sacrifice what I believe is way, way too much. In fact I would be quite upset.

I too am in the elderly group and agree with you . I would be willing to make an effort to keep myself safe by lessening my own risk . I will see less people and stay 2 metres away when I can , I will shop only when its quiet and walk where there are few people . I will only go to a restaurant if its safe and distancing adhered too , I won’t be on public transport or anywhere with crowds .
I will do all that and would be happy to keep it up so cancer screening and other services can go ahead .
I don’t expect younger people to be as particular as I am and would like to see them enjoy a bit more social interaction and enjoyment
But would ask them to make some sacrifices too so their parents and grandparents and vulnerable friends can be safe . They can reduce the numbers they are meeting in a group , wear masks and be careful with hygiene . They can stay out of crowded indoor situations and try to avoid large gatherings
I think we all have to make some sacrifices for the sake of the whole community which includes sick children , the elderly , young adults with chronic disease and our own nanas and grandads

hmmm · 27-09-2020 10:15AM

walus wrote: »

Hmmm, i agree that a part of being a functioning society we need to make sacrifices and look out for each other. However, I don’t think that a part of this social contract is to do so at the expense of lives, health and well being of others. It is only when reasonable and feasible to do, that this arrangement makes sense. As an elderly or a vulnerable person I would not be happy knowing that protecting my life requires other people to sacrifice what I believe is way, way too much. In fact I would be quite upset.

Edit: I would not be happy to live in a society where we are sacrificing one’s life to save another’s.

I agree with you.

The bottom line in the current pandemic is we cannot allow our hospitals to become overwhelmed. There's a few people who think this disease can never affect them and don't care, but the vast majority know we can't allow that.

The question them becomes how do we avoid this. Pretending the virus is "just a flu" marks you out as either naive or an idiot because we can see the direct relationship between cases, hospitalisations, ICU numbers and deaths. For the hospitals, preventing the spread of Covid drastically affects their other services. When you hear there is one person with Covid in a hospital you might think this is trivial, but there's probably an entire ward closed off as a consequence.

So then the question is what can we do to reduce the risk. We can each take individual actions (e.g. wearing a mask, not holding indoor gatherings and so on). When the time comes we will be encouraged to take a vaccine which we should. And then there are unfortunately parts of our business or social lives which are too risky to open - and we broadly know what these are - crowded, indoor, poor ventilation. People who own businesses or work in these areas are badly affected through no fault of their own, and it's right that the government should tide them over - but repeatedly saying that restrictions on those places should be lifted when we know that this will simply drive up the numbers of infected and force us back into lockdown is futile.

bucketybuck · 27-09-2020 10:39AM

hmmm wrote: »

The bottom line in the current pandemic is we cannot allow our hospitals to become overwhelmed.

Is that why suicides don't matter to the likes of you, because they tend not to use up hospital beds?

hmmm · 27-09-2020 10:45AM

bucketybuck wrote: »

Is that why suicides don't matter to the likes of you, because they tend not to use up hospital beds?

Firstly, don't put words into my mouth.

Secondly, there is a big difference between hospitals/ICUs becoming overwhelmed and "using up hospital beds". We know from experience in Wuhan and some other places that the death rate for Covid significantly increases if people can't get good quality medical care. Not to mention the knock-on impacts on the rest of the hospital and all the other emergency and other care that would not happen.

LuckyLloyd · 27-09-2020 10:48AM

There’s a lot of talk about the economy and personal responsibility and all that jazz (including whinging about those on social welfare for good measure). This is your opportunity to take personal responsibility for your career choices and skills to future proof yourself for the next recessionary event. Because they’re inevitable and your physical service based job will always be in throw to the momentum of the broader economy. Break the cycle of your own economic helplessness imo.

Now...for those who will feel the above paragraph stings a bit - it doesn’t come close to talking in a callous fashion about “OAP flu” and how we need to put a price on life. Does it?

bucketybuck · 27-09-2020 10:58AM

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

There’s a lot of talk about the economy and personal responsibility and all that jazz (including whinging about those on social welfare for good measure). This is your opportunity to take personal responsibility for your career choices and skills to future proof yourself for the next recessionary event. Because they’re inevitable and your physical service based job will always be in throw to the momentum of the broader economy. Break the cycle of your own economic helplessness imo.

Now...for those who will feel the above paragraph stings a bit - it doesn’t come close to talking in a callous fashion about “OAP flu” and how we need to put a price on life. Does it?

You do realise that your little statement is exactly what has regularly been said to those in threatened industries over the years, no?

People are well aware that come the crunch there will be no restrictions put in place or clapping on balconies to help them, they are more than aware of it.

They wouldn't like that to be said to them? It will be said to them, they will hear all about personal responsibility very soon, no doubt about it.

bucketybuck · 27-09-2020 11:02AM

hmmm wrote: »

Firstly, don't put words into my mouth.

They are your words, own them.

hmmm wrote: »

The bottom line in the current pandemic is we cannot allow our hospitals to become overwhelmed.

Like so many blinkered people you are a one issue voter, it is covid all the way with no perspective on the harm being done elsewhere.

weldoninhio · 27-09-2020 11:04AM

xl500 wrote: »

This is the kind of thing you are dealing with

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/coronavirus/co-donegal-hotel-offers-2-rooms-to-locals-to-circumvent-covid-19-outdoor-dining-rules-1.4365587

Brilliant!! Would love to see places around the country follow suit!!

Elmer Blooker · 27-09-2020 11:06AM

Grant Billions Bifocals wrote: »

Have you ever seen the flu result in the scenes we saw in Italy a few months back for example?

Do some research on 'Lombardy pollution' or 'Po valley pollution' and the excess deaths among the elderly in that area will be explained.

Zebra3 · 27-09-2020 11:17AM

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

There’s a lot of talk about the economy and personal responsibility and all that jazz (including whinging about those on social welfare for good measure). This is your opportunity to take personal responsibility for your career choices and skills to future proof yourself for the next recessionary event. Because they’re inevitable and your physical service based job will always be in throw to the momentum of the broader economy. Break the cycle of your own economic helplessness imo.

Now...for those who will feel the above paragraph stings a bit - it doesn’t come close to talking in a callous fashion about “OAP flu” and how we need to put a price on life. Does it?

Jesus Christ, I've read some condescending shyte on here over the last few weeks, but this takes the tin of biscuits.

More deluded middle class I'm all right Jack stuff.

Do you think people living week to week can afford this option?

Ah sure the Chinese have the same word for crisis as opportunity!!!

Irish people have always put a price on life. People left to die on the streets, people left to die on hospital trolleys. Guess it gets a bit awkward for some when it comes close to home despite what they've accepted as normal throughout their lives.

bucketybuck · 27-09-2020 11:27AM

Zebra3 wrote: »

Jesus Christ, I've read some condescending shyte on here over the last few weeks, but this takes the tin of biscuits.

It gets worse every time you look at it.

"How would you like to be told to take personal responsibility for your own career after we drive the economy into the toilet, you wouldn't like that would you..."

How tone deaf can you get, because that is exactly what we will be told when the economy goes into recession!

robfowler78 · 27-09-2020 11:32AM

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

There’s a lot of talk about the economy and personal responsibility and all that jazz (including whinging about those on social welfare for good measure). This is your opportunity to take personal responsibility for your career choices and skills to future proof yourself for the next recessionary event. Because they’re inevitable and your physical service based job will always be in throw to the momentum of the broader economy. Break the cycle of your own economic helplessness imo.

Now...for those who will feel the above paragraph stings a bit - it doesn’t come close to talking in a callous fashion about “OAP flu” and how we need to put a price on life. Does it?

What a load of rubbish. Clearly someone not effected in anyway financially from covid. Do you think there are enough jobs in all other areas to support all the people who change career. How about the people who are elected to sort this type of stuff out actually get their fingers out and do something.

Yes they locked down originally in my opinion the easiest choice for politicians as it was a new virus and people were behind that. But they done nothing to prepare the health service they rented the private hospitals at huge cost for 2 months and left them empty. Then Leo pulled the great escape opened everything up again a popular decision when he knew he wouldn't have to deal with the fall out. MM doesn't give a monkeys he just didn't want to be the only FF leader not to get the top job.

We need better leadership and more clear communication from government.

Lundstram · 27-09-2020 11:45AM

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

There’s a lot of talk about the economy and personal responsibility and all that jazz (including whinging about those on social welfare for good measure). This is your opportunity to take personal responsibility for your career choices and skills to future proof yourself for the next recessionary event. Because they’re inevitable and your physical service based job will always be in throw to the momentum of the broader economy. Break the cycle of your own economic helplessness imo.

Now...for those who will feel the above paragraph stings a bit - it doesn’t come close to talking in a callous fashion about “OAP flu” and how we need to put a price on life. Does it?

Translation: If you have some sh1itty service based job, it's your own fault you're now unemployed. Get an education you dumbass.

You do realise Ireland is the most educated country in Europe per capita?

One of, if not the worst post I've yet to read on this thread. The ignorance is palpable.

moonage · 27-09-2020 12:04PM

iamwhoiam wrote: »

I don’t expect younger people to be as particular as I am and would like to see them enjoy a bit more social interaction and enjoyment
But would ask them to make some sacrifices too so their parents and grandparents and vulnerable friends can be safe . They can reduce the numbers they are meeting in a group , wear masks and be careful with hygiene . They can stay out of crowded indoor situations and try to avoid large gatherings
I think we all have to make some sacrifices for the sake of the whole community which includes sick children , the elderly , young adults with chronic disease and our own nanas and grandads

Yes, those young (and middle aged) people who live with, or are in contact with, old and vulnerable people need to be cautious and take precautions.

But the others should be encouraged to mix freely with each other—in college, work, socially etc. When the virus has spread among those for whom it is not dangerous, a level of immunity in the community will be achieved.

When the level of immunity in the population is high enough, the old and vulnerable are then safer and can engage in society with more confidence.

I think this is the most sensible way out of the mess we are now in. Lockdowns and restrictions are never going to work in the long run because the virus can't be suppressed long term—we have to start living with it instead of kicking the can down the road.

LuckyLloyd · 27-09-2020 12:23PM

See? It stings a bit.

In that context you should reconsider all that ye have been posting on this thread about older and vulnerable people. It’s not right nor fair for your relative weakness to be used against you in the midst of crisis.

hmmm · 27-09-2020 12:38PM

bucketybuck wrote: »

Like so many blinkered people you are a one issue voter, it is covid all the way with no perspective on the harm being done elsewhere.

Not wanting hospitals to be overwhelmed means I am a "one issue voter"?

I take it then that you are happy to see hospitals being overwhelmed, because otherwise that makes no sense.

OK I'll run with it - we let Covid off the leash, our hospitals are overwhelmed, our doctors and nurses are exhausted, our ICU is full and large numbers of people are dying in corridors or in their homes because they can't get help. This is going to be good for ..... who exactly? Do you think this will improve the mental health of the nation? Will this get people out of their homes and spending?

walus · 27-09-2020 12:46PM

hmmm wrote: »

I agree with you.

The bottom line in the current pandemic is we cannot allow our hospitals to become overwhelmed. There's a few people who think this disease can never affect them and don't care, but the vast majority know we can't allow that.

The question them becomes how do we avoid this. Pretending the virus is "just a flu" marks you out as either naive or an idiot because we can see the direct relationship between cases, hospitalisations, ICU numbers and deaths. For the hospitals, preventing the spread of Covid drastically affects their other services. When you hear there is one person with Covid in a hospital you might think this is trivial, but there's probably an entire ward closed off as a consequence.

So then the question is what can we do to reduce the risk. We can each take individual actions (e.g. wearing a mask, not holding indoor gatherings and so on). When the time comes we will be encouraged to take a vaccine which we should. And then there are unfortunately parts of our business or social lives which are too risky to open - and we broadly know what these are - crowded, indoor, poor ventilation. People who own businesses or work in these areas are badly affected through no fault of their own, and it's right that the government should tide them over - but repeatedly saying that restrictions on those places should be lifted when we know that this will simply drive up the numbers of infected and force us back into lockdown is futile.

Hmmm, I hear this a lot - we cannot allow our hospitals to get overrun. Equally, though we cannot allow for them to be empty as they have been for the past three months. The fact that they were deserted is yet another proof that the country by and large overreacted. Massively. It was through the summer months that we have had an opportunity to open up and experiment in an effort to understand and control the spread of the virus, feed back to modelling tools and prepare for "flu season". Now we arrive at it ill prepared and amid the plans for more lockdowns. I'm sorry but this is uterly idiodic and only proves that those at the helm do not have a clue what they are doing. And no it will not be the fault of the young people, as they are now being singled out by the media, for when the hospitals indeed become overrun. It will be solely down to a lack of imagination and forward thinking by nphet and the government.

growleaves · 27-09-2020 12:56PM

KindOfIrish wrote: »

I'm afraid that the economic carnage is the only way to bring this country (and many others) back to senses.

I'm much more pessimistic than you. In a couple of years we will still have a malleable, servile public but they will be much, much poorer.

The Government and corporations introducing downward wages shocks will increase their mastery over the population.

tigger123 · 27-09-2020 01:01PM

growleaves wrote: »

I'm much more pessimistic than you. In a couple of years we will still have a malleable, servile public but they will be much, much poorer.

The Government and corporations introducing downward wages shocks will increase their mastery over the population.

What benefit is it to the Government to drive down wages?

growleaves · 27-09-2020 01:02PM

tigger123 wrote: »

What benefit is it to the Government to drive down wages?

Sorry I didn't express myself correctly.

I meant that the Government would exercise more control over people in general.

And also corporations who seek to drive down wages would exercise more control over people as well.

tigger123 · 27-09-2020 01:06PM

growleaves wrote: »

Sorry I didn't express myself correctly.

I meant that the Government would exercise more control over people in general.

And also corporations who seek to drive down wages would exercise more control over people as well.

And to what end would they want to try to control people more?

I'm not being smart, just teasing it out. After all this, where's the benefit I'm having a more malleable public if that is what they're after?

HBC08 · 27-09-2020 01:13PM

Gradius wrote: »

How has this turned into intergenerational spite?

It hasn't in the real world.
Unfortunately they're will always be a few gobsh1tes who always want to break an argument down into us v them,they use terms like lockdown merchants and are incapable of understanding a nuanced and complicated situation.

dalyboy · 27-09-2020 01:14PM

tigger123 wrote: »

And to what end would they want to try to control people more?

I'm not being smart, just teasing it out. After all this, where's the benefit I'm having a more malleable public if that is what they're after?

Get ready for the “social credit system”. Total and utter public reliance on government/ banking / corporations. Just look it up and see how obedient the Chinese people are.

Relaxation of Restrictions, Part V - **Read OP for Mod Warnings**

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Relaxation of Restrictions, Part V - Read OP for Mod Warnings